The deal is, I can see from the picture some paint problems.
When you get a phone, how do you decide if you want to leave it alone or repaint?
Do you guys try to make the phones as pretty as possible? I was thinking of trying to strip the paint and repaint, but, according to many, that is maybe not the best thing to do.
Also, if you decide to paint, do you just go for glossy, or "powder finish?" The phone I'm getting will be a D1 with an E1 handset.
I'll post pictures here, but, am interested in your opinions on refurbishing phones totally--I've read the thread about changing parts out....
Nto, personally I have never done anything to the metal phones when I get them except clean and polish them. Almost all of them have paint loss at the cradle ears for obvious reasons. I think it adds character to the phone. Clean it up the way you like it and there it is. If you paint it, with whatever method you use it will only be a matter of time before there are nicks and paint loss on the new paint. That original Western Electric paint really shines up nicely. I use Novus 2 on the painted surfaces. You will get some black residue come off on your rag but not to worry, the phone will polish up to a very nice shine. I have picked up a few that were painted somewhere along the line by a non-professional and they are dull and won't shine no matter what. I guess it all depends on what you want and what you're happy with as far as the condition. My vote on the D1 is just clean it up to get old dirt off of it, put some polish on it and you will be surprised how nice it will look.
I was wondering--so, do you ever paint? Even on the phones you think have been repainted?
Of course this is a bad picture, but, that fingerwheel looks pretty bubbly--what do you think about that?
I don't paint because I don't have any experience with painting. Other than some little stuff I did recently (dial housing, modular back plate). Unless it's done right I thinking painting can be a mistake. The paint on those finger wheels is pretty tough in that they get so much use. Replacement wheels are available. Sometimes just polishing them up nice works OK. But there are good replacements out there. On eBay there is one seller that often sells finger wheels. They're used and some are better than others. Her name is Adele Vaverchak. Her ebay handle is adele0283. She often has nice phone parts for sale.
I have bought metal finger wheels from Phoneco for a Model 500. But theirs are only painted on one side (aluminum) and smooth silver on the back side. Kind of like getting half a wheel. Also if you search for one on eBay, make note of the opening in the center. Vertical openings are for the #2, 4, 5 dials. Horizontal openings fit the #6 and #7 dials.
Painting is not at all hard, its all in the prep work, and of course quality paint. If you're phone looks bad to you - repaint it. I'm currently experimenting on a spare Stromberg-Carlson housing.
I think you'll be surprised by that fingerwheel when it arrives, NTO. It's got some sort of Pledge or lemon oil on it that the seller used to clean the phone, and that combined with some crud and a bright flash makes it look much worse than what it probably is. With a proper clean and polish, I think you'll find it needs nothing else.
Personaly, when it comes to "paint vs. not paint" my opinion is that cradle ear wear is perfectly normal and nearly universal, and so doesn't need to be corrected. I just leave it as it is. Only if there were some sort of catastrophic paint problem, would I consider painting the whole phone. In general, I do what Dennis does: Polish the paint, and leave it at that.
Cool!
Say, foots, will you post your progress on your painting? I'm very interested, even though, hopefully, this little gem won't need paint.
Thank you, Dennis for the info on the fingerwheels!
Quote from: ntophones on November 06, 2009, 04:06:54 PM
Cool!
Say, foots, will you post your progress on your painting? I'm very interested, even though, hopefully, this little gem won't need paint.
Thank you, Dennis for the info on the fingerwheels!
I plan on getting a digital camera this coming payday, as I need to take pictures of a bunch of stuff, phones included. I screwed up my first attempt, but I'm going to strip it and do some better prep work. I'm using a new to me paint - its called Specialty Lacquer by Rustoleum. I really like this paint, it is really glossy much like the factory paint, and with a little better prep work, the phone should come out really nice. I'm going to eventually paint my good Stromberg-Carlson 1243 with it and my 2 Connecticut Telephone and Electric phones with it.
I hope you get your camera soon, to take photos of your progress.
That should be very interesting and informative to those who might want to paint in the future!
To me, painting a phone is kind of a personal choice, and it has a lot to do with the finish that it comes with. I recently painted a bakelite Kellogg 900 because, frankly, the bakelite was beyond any decent cleaning up. Some might say that painting is like parts swapping, but for me, I just use my judgement and act accordingly.
Most metal phones like a D mount are well enough painted that by the time you use a little polishing compound or Novus #3 and #2, it will display nicely as is. Believe me, taking a phone all the way apart and painting it so you don't have to mask is a lot of work, and can come with some risk of breaking old parts during the disassembly and reassembly process.
Some people want an old phone that looks just the way it did when it came in the original box, way back when. There is nothing wrong with that either. For me, I like working with the electronics more than I like the work of restoration, so for me it is an easy choice. I do have a couple of nice favorites, however.
Powder coating can be a very expensive and time consuming proposition too, but you wind up with a phone that has a finish that is almost indestructable. I have not done this, but I have seen them on e-Bay. In that case, the phone has to be absolutely torn down and sand-blasted and the process can be destructive to dates that are stamped on the inside.
The dial finger wheel is one part that you can more easily refinish by yourself, and even if you were to just polish out the finish on the phone, I don't think a newly painted finger wheel would look out of place.
So, the decision is yours. Many of us have repainted phones, and even on the platstics, many of us have sanded, bleached, cleaned and done just about everything else to them. Sometimes with good results, and sometimes disasterous results.
Cheers,
-Bill
Thanks--I hope the phone just polishes nicely, I think. :)
I'll have to see. Thanks for the advice.
I don't think I'll sandblast, that's for sure.
What I was thinking was that the picture looks like someone may have done a bad paint job on it. But, I've been reading where that might come off and just leave the original coat (I hope).
I appreciate your thoughts, everyone.
I've used India ink to touch up cradle ears. It's not as durable or glossy as original paint but it provides the same effect. You'll find it can scuff off the ears again if you're not careful, but should last a while.
Ralph
Oh, that's great! I might do that!
My new phone came in the mail today!
Here are some pictures:
Hello,
Here is a picture of my new D1.
I've been looking at the wiring diagrams in the Technical Stuff portion, and admit I really can't tell what my phone is.
The diagrams are great, but, I'm such a new thing to this, I'm sorry, I still don't know what I have.
Could someone look at this picture and tell me?
Thanks.
nto
Nice job! It looks like the dial plate is celluloid, which is a very nice touch. They're not all that common. Be VERY careful cleaning it, because they can be very fragile.
It's not perfect, but almost none of them are. All in all, I think you did really well with this one!
Thank you--how would you clean a celluloid dial plate?
Now I realize what you are saying--duh--I looked at the other end of my mounting cord and see 4 wires--I just couldn't tell looking inside the phone--So, I think it is anti-sidetone.
Nto,
Your phone is set up for an anti sidetone subset.
Yep, four wires are for anti-sidetone. It all depends on the subset, though. Technically, a phone isn't sidetone or anti-sidetone, rather it's capable of sidetone or antisidetone service. Whichever it is, is determined by the subset's innards.
Incidentally, the phone is wired correctly, so you don't have to worry about anything being wrong on it. Once you get a subset, you'll be able to connect it and have a working phone with no fuss at all.
Thanks--
The dial feels a little stiff--I'm thinking of cleaning it with the unlubricating contact cleaner.
Also, would you take everything off and wash the metal parts of the phone (i.e., the case and the hook, etc.), or just polish it?
NTO:
I have been out all day, and I am catching up on my reading. I can also confirm that it is antisidetone and that it is wired correctly.
You may need to partially disassemble the dial if it is stiff and you want to use some spray lubricant. All the gears are inside the dial and not visible from outside, either in front of in back. Only the contacts are accessible from the outside and behind.
Looks like you have a great phone there.
There are ways to use a network out of another phone as a substitute for a subset, but an actual subset kind of rounds it out as a complete unit.
If you want to get into the dial to spray it, let us know. There is also a guy in Arizona, Steve Hilsz that has a side business of cleaning, lubing, and repairing dials. He is very reasonable. $5 or $6 bucks, I seem to remember. However, I think he is out on a salvage job in California for a couple weeks at the moment.
-Bill Geurts
Phonesrfun, I am painting my 1243's because on my good one, there is paint missing along the entire front edge, which doesn't look too great. As for my other 1243, well its not in very good condition. You can see it in the picture. The 202 however, I don't want to paint as its in very nice condition. My Connecticut TA-166 is badly in need of a complete restoration, despite being refurbed by Bendix in the early '60s.
Very nice phone. If that is a celluloid I was told once by a long-time collector to NEVER, NEVER touch water to it.
That's what I was thinking.
I wonder about alcohol on celluloid? I'm wondering if some of you radio guys have ever figured out a good way to clean celluloid? I know it is very fragile and will disintegrate without the proper care--too bad--many movies lost because of it.
Foots, please let us know how your painting comes out! I'm thinking of just polishing my 202, also--I like it the way it is.
I'm thinking about the dial--doing it myself, but, I'd hate to ruin that great 4H.
Also, I'm scared about the dial face--does he clean the celluloid, too?
I wonder when Steve will return....
ntophones, will do. Yesterday I very lightly sanded my "bad" 1243 to remove some of the small oxidation "bumps" . I then washed it in very hot water with Ivory Liquid dish soap. I rinsed with very hot water and thoroughly dried it. I then set it out in the sun along with the can of paint (to help warm the paint). I then applied 4 or so light coats, allowing 10 -15 min in between coats. Afterwards I applied 3 heavy coats with the same 10-15 min in between. I left the phone sitting in the sun all afternoon. This paint is very glossy but has a very light amount of orange peel to it. I'm going to leave the phone inside to finish curing for the rest of the week and then I'll apply a very light compound to it to see if that helps smooth it out. This paint has really impressed me thus far. I am hoping to be able to post pictures of it this coming weekend.
Steve's last post in the ATCA listserve was that he would be returning around November 11th. Do you have his contact information?
-Bill
I just washed my phone, and several chips came off, as well as some paint. I don't know if it has been painted before, I don't think so, but, there are many bubbles and some chipping. Maybe it has been painted. I'll try some Novus on it and see if it takes off too much. I may end up painting it, though I don't want to.
I emailed him just now from his home page, to find out if the info is still correct, as well as his pricing.
If I don't hear back from him after the 11th, I may try again, or see if I can do it on my own--don't know about that, though.
nto:
Well, you can officially call your D1 mount a 202 since it is wired for antisidetone.
When you do get a chance to remove the dial to send to Steve, that would also be a good time to paint, since it will be a few days before you get the dial back.
Removing the dial is just a matter of removing the three screws that hold it in place (See the arrows on the photo I took of mine). Also, take pieces of masking tape and wrap a chunk around the end of each of the wires you pull off the dial to show which terminals the wires came off of. I.E. W, Y, BK, R, BB. This will help when it is time to reassemble. Even if you forget to do that, someone here, including myself can talk you through the process of hooking it back up.
If you do decide to paint, I would advise to remove the hookswitch plunger and remove the handset cord and the line cord. We can help you with this too. It really is not all that difficult, but one of us should probably talk you through that too. If rebuilding the dial would be rated as a 10 in complexity, removing the hookswitch plunger is probably a 2.
I really agree that sending the dial to Steve is a good thing. All this talk of redoing a #4 got me motivated to do one of mine yesterday and today, and it is not something that should be tackled by someone who has not done it before. I have done several, and even then, I found myself having to go back and re-doing some steps.
So, the few bucks spent and the time that the dial is away will be well worth it in the long run!
Anyway, here is a photo showing the dial mounting screws.
Nto I washed a D1 once that I thought was original paint. The paint peeled off like peeling an apple. The original paint was underneath and in very bad shape. Hopefully that is NOT the case with yours.
The first photo shows what it looked like after I washed it. The second shows the original paint after I polished. I did not reassemble the phone onto this body. I still have it waiting for a paint job. It was badly corroded.
The one I stripped a while back had that same problem. The zinc bubbled up under the paint, and if I scraped it, there were powdery bubbles of corrosion under it. I don't know what that powder is, though, because after stripping and smoothing with steel wool, the surface is perfectly smooth, rather than pitted.
Thanks--I will be sending my dial in.
I had already taken it and the cords out (I didn't label them, just took pictures, so may need some help in reassembly.)
Anyway the paint dosen't look that great. =(.
But the dial is 149B 1937 4H with a celluloid dialplate (which you already knew), so, no way do I want to screw that up.
It looks like the only non-original part to this phone is the spitcup and the F1 transmitter in the spit cup. Every thing else seems to match. I think it even has a brass fingerwheel. Unfortunately, the replacement spitcup is a seamed one with a chip out of it. So, that's the way that is.
But, when I took the dial card out, low and behold, the old dial card number was just turned over--what a treat!
Here are some pictures.
nto:
The off-center spitcup on the transmitter can be easily re-aligned if the transmitter assembly can be twisted off. Sometimes they are on there really good and you can't budge them. If it is "twistable", note that the aluminum transmitter body has an outer bakelite ring that is used to turn to a proper point to where the spitcup points in the right direction when everything is tightened (but not too tight).
The attached photo shows how the transmitter body looks when removed from the handset handle, with the outer adjusting ring in the center.
You are doing very well!!
Looks like we have a real phone enthusiast on our hands!
That was a great find for the dial center.
Definitely a brass fingerwheel, and the dial card is a nice find! It's very difficult to find a fully seamless handset, so don't feel bad about that, most of the seamless handles have at least one grooved caps on them. No need to worry about wiring the dial, as there's a color coded diagram in the technical stuff forum that shows what goes where inside the phone.
Oh, man--if that is my fate, it looks like it'll be a while before I'm using my little phone! But, on the other post I have, I posted some pictures of it after being washed: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1728.msg23043#msg23043
Does it look like yours? I'm thinking maybe....
I'm going to polish it with Novus 2 tomorrow and see. If I need to paint, I'll ask for some advice on stripping, although, foots, it looks like you just sanded--what did you use, and what paint are you liking on your Stromberg?
Also, if you want to at least try cleaning the dial number plate, it is as easy as taking the round snap-ring off and the dial plate will just lift out in your hand.
Oh great! I was wondering how to straighten that spitcup!
I finally got mine apart this morning--I was very excited, because those cords needed washing. But, I can't get the receiver cap off. But, that's not that bad, I don't think.
Oh, but what about the celluloid? I'm so scared of causing it to disintegrate--do you worry about that with the celluloid?
If the receiver is working (Which you probably don't know yet) and if it is not a problem, I would leave well enough alone. The receiver has the same outer ring thing, but since it is not really directional, it doesn't much matter. They make a strap wrench for getting jar lids off that people have used for tight receiver and transmitter caps.
Seems like this all has evolved into two separate threads.
I don't know. If it is fragile enough that just by looking at it, you think it might flake off, then you should leave it alone. It might be that any cleaning of any kind would be invasive.
There is a guy on one of the list serves who is selling a number plate dated in the 50's that is like the one on mine (See attached photo). It is the rural numbers only version. I think his price was $12.
You can also get these at Oldphoneworks, but from time to time they also come up on e-bay.
PS the dial number plate on the phone I just showed is a porcelan plate.
It really looks good, just very, very dirty (like, greasy dirt).
I may try to clean it and if it ruins it, I'll have to replace it. It is very gross, and I wouldn't use it as is, actually.
Yours if very pretty.
Steve may also have a replacement, and his prices are always good.
You might test out some cleaning methods on the CENTER of the dial plate within the retaining ring. That way if something goes wrong, or if the date information wipes away, you won't have damaged anything that's visible. I'd start out with nothing but a soft cloth dampened with water, and if that doesn't work, maybe try a bit of gentle soap.
Great idea about the center part. I will try that. I'm thinking I'll have to use some sort of soap, since it is a greasy looking bit of junk on it.
I'll let you know how it turns out!
I would not use any liquid on the dial face plate. Maybe a microfiber cloth would clean it up well enough. I have your same phone including the celluloid dial plate and brass fingerwheel. The celluloid plates just aren't as white as the porcelain ones and are easily identified. Be very careful with yours.
My advice is to keep the F1 transmitter arrangement. The older/original "bullet" type transmitters are vastly inferior and you'll grow tired of having to repeat yourself to frustrated distant parties. The look of the spitcup is maintained but transmission quality passes for a modern day land line phone. This was an upgrade applied to many E1 handsets for a while by Western Electric both in the field and during refurbishing until at some point WECo started pulling the E1's out of service when they found them. I converted my "bullet" to F1 (using my oldest transmitter from 5/36) and am very happy with the results. Play with the adjusting ring and the spitcup until you get the spitcup lined up properly. It'll take some tries. Don't tighten anything down further than just with your fingers. Did I miss why you had to use the chipped spitcup? They should be interchangeable, seam or no seam.
You got a really beautifully equipped phone there. Congratulations!
Ralph
Thanks, Ralph, for all the info.
I sent my dial to Steve Hilsz. I asked him to try and clean the plate, but, I emailed him what you said.
By the way, I read that sunlight will bring some of the white back into celluloid.
The spitcup came chipped, but was not listed on Ebay. I'll decide whether to replace it after Christmas is over....
Thanks for your help.
Right now, I'm trying to paint, but, really am not having much luck. It looks pitted. I don't know how to get the metal smooth enough.
So, I'm getting ready to strip what I did yesterday and just start over, I think. :'(. Ah, well...
Bondo is not just for cars anymore! If you have serious pitting that can't be corrected by sandpaper, just get one of those tiny jars of bondo, fill the pits with it, and then sand smooth.
Well, I'm thinking that sanding may do the trick! I almost bought the bondo, and if my enamel is not smooth enough,
I'll start again and go that route. I'm really hoping that this will take care of it.
I bought some different sandpaper. Right now, I've just finished another primer coat and will sand that tomorrow.
After I sand that down, I'll go with the color. I'm thinking I just might have it this time, though. If not, surely, third time will be a charm!
nto
That's the great thing about refinishing a metal phone. It doesn't matter how bad it turns out, you can easily strip it off and start over. You'll get it, though, so don't get discouraged. You're going to have a phone you can be really proud of.
Well, I primed, sanded to a smooth finish, and repainted. Now, it looks like it did before I redid it.
Dang. Do you think that after about 1 week, I can use a Novus #2 or #3 to buff it smooth and shiny?
I'm hoping it looks black enough, too. I'm using Krylon Black Glossy. Hopefully, it will work.
Foots, if you are still around, could you update us on your phone that you are repainting?
Thanks,
nto
On the Kellogg I did, I was able to start sanding and Novusing after about 48 hours, and that was air drying without baking in the oven.
But, different paints are different. Probably depends on whether you are using enamel or laquer paint.
It's kind of rare that you get a glass-smooth finish from spray paint. The painting is just one step in the process, with smoothing the paint coming after. Think of car restoration--They never spray the paint on and then call the car finished. The paint is buffed out until it's smooth and glassy. Bill's Kellogg post is a great read to see this process, so be sure to check that out.
Thanks, that makes me feel much better!
Yeah--I'm going to follow his example and try polishing in a day or so.
I really appreciate your help--you guys are the best.
Here are some pictures of my newly painted phone.
Nto, that's a great looking phone. You did a very nice job on it. Congratulations!
Thanks, Dennis--I really appreciate it!
You got the dial back already? That was quick! The phone looks great, and the dial card is a nice one, too.
Yes, got the dial back just this afternoon! Steve was great. He fixed 2 other stuck dials in about 10 minutes, it seems. :)
The paint turned out pretty well, after I wet sanded it and polished it for a while. Guess I just have a lot to learn about painting.
I could work a little more on the dial card. I just cut out a blank Wait for Dialtone and put the original number card underneath, but, my printed dial card didn't quite match up. But, you don't notice it unless you stare at it.
It will bug me, though, so I'm sure I'll mess with it some more.
nto,
The phone looks great, and it appears the felt on the bottom is also in very good condition. It looks like Dennis may have some new competition.
Larry
Oh, Larry--How nice! I consider that a huge compliment!
Guess what? The bottom is suede. I used some suede cleaner on it (several times) and the nap came back up.
I had read that the black junk is just the oily dirt, so I really cleaned it. I also read that sometimes, people used baby powder and a brush to fluff it back, if it was getting a little sticky. I tried that, too, and it did help a little bit, after I had cleaned it well. I was happy. However, there used to be little cork feet on it. I'm thinking about cutting some out and trying to replace them, as soon as I can figure out what kind of glue I should use.
You should be proud as the phone came out very nicely! I told my wife I "NEED" a 202 one day. Hope when I do to get it as nice as yours!
Thanks--I think everyone may need a 202! :D
I've seen some other nice ones on ebay recently. Of course, I've seen many other phones I'd like on ebay........
But, thanks for the comment!
Larry, I'll take that as a compliment, thank you. There is plenty of room in the world for everyone to become good at refurbishing phones---or anything else.
NTO, with regard to the leather cover, I also use a Nubbock cleaner, or suede cleaner on the leather covers and the smaller 302 and model 500 foot pads. You have to make sure if you get leather cleaner that it is safe for suede. Some of them say right on the can that they're not safe on suede. I prefer the kind that comes out as a foam. I like to work it in with a tooth brush and generally just saturate the foot pad. I think some of the guys just use a warm water instead of the leather cleaner. I read somewhere that a brass bristled brush works good on suede. I bought a barbeque grill brush that is about 2-3 inches square. It has brass bristles. After I saturate the suede I brush gently, all in one direction at first on the leather. The crusty leather will eventually soften. But you have to be very careful not to rip it as it does get very thin.
The suede cleaner I use is simply Kiwi suede cleaner. I usually buy it at Rite Aid but probably anyplace sells it. The snap on top has those scratch bristles which also help. My 2c worth, for what it's worth.
Thanks, Dennis.
You are so right about being careful. I was working on a 302 foot and accidentally snagged a little hole in it. :(.
But, before I worked on my 202 bottom suede piece, I made sure I was using a suede cleaner. I think I'll get some of the Kiwi, though, because, I think I would like the foam better, too. Mine was a liquid cleaner and really soaked the suede. But, it, too had a rough applicator that really helped the nap come up.
I think I may end up recovering the 302 feet. They are very, very black and gummy. I cleaned them a couple of times, but, since that one has the small rip, I can't really clean it anymore.
I think the toothbrush idea is a very good one, also.
Nto, I don't know if you've seen the postings about Dennis Hallworth. He recovers leather foot pads, bases, etc. Here is a posting with some info. He does a nice job. Although I know one can do recover them themselves, for the low price it's worth sending them to Dennis. Here is the link from a previous post. Look halfway down the page:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=241.msg3174#msg3174
Great work on your phone, it came out very nice and clean, I like it!
Nto:
Very nice indeed. I just got home from a busy day at work, so I have not been following the vast number of posts today. I must chime in and compliment you on a job well done. I know you worked very hard on it, and you did so well.
-Bill Geurts
Thanks to you all. There's nothing much better than sprucing up a phone and finding nice comments on your job on this forum.
Dennis, thanks for the info about the feet. I will probably be contacting Dennis in the near future. I had not seen that link before.