Please, Please, somebody tell me what the hell the secret is to getting the blasted card holder back on a Kellogg dial.
I've succeeded in scraping all the paint off of one trying everything I could think of.
I have a 1000 & a 925 waiting almost patiently for me to get smart on this.
Is it a tool, a technique? Is a sacrificial lamb required?
Using a small screwdriver, slip it under the ring around 7 and rotate clockwise. Practice a couple times without the number card in place, 1 so you can see what you're doing, and 2, well I tore up a lot of number cards trying to get it right.
Here's the procedure in excruciating detail, with "practice runs" included before putting the whole thing back together. This might make it more obvious to see how it works. (Note, the procedure for AE dials with clear plastic fingerwheels and metal retainer rings is entirely different.)
The number card retainer for Kellogg 15-G dials and for AE 3" dials with metal fingerwheels, consists of two parts. One part is the ring, the other part is the flat metal disc that goes on the back of the retainer and holds the card into the retainer.
Notice that the flat metal disc has a little "finger" that fits into a tiny "loop" at the back of the ring: that "finger" tells you the correct position for the disc, and the disc should be installed in the direction such that its "bulge" is "outward" away from the large center screw on the fingerwheel.
Now notice that the fingerwheel has a movable captive thingie (someone here probably knows the correct name for that) under the main screw, that normally rests between two protrusions in the fingerwheel, roughly between 9:00 and 11:00. Notice that this captive thingie can move more or less freely in the space under the screw.
OK, now take the metal disc out of the retainer ring, and place the ring casually into the fingerwheel, such that the tab sticking out of the ring at approximately 4:00, fits into the tiny slot in the indentation in the fingerwheel. Notice the other larger tab that point toward the center of the ring, is now resting inside the fingerwheel at approx. 10:00.
Notice that the movable captive thingie under the main screw, can move away from that inward-facing tab, or can move toward it and then trap it under the matching indentation in the movable thingie.
With the retainer minus its disc, sitting in that position, you can take a fingertip and move the "thingie" back and forth, trapping the tab or exposing the tab. Now move it so that the tab is exposed, and remove the retainer ring. Look at the end of the movable "thingie" and you will see a little prong sticking up. That prong provides something on which to catch the tip of a very small screwdriver or similar tool, when the whole thing is assembled. There is also a cutout in the telephone number label card and its clear plastic protector, and the purpose of this cutout is to not interfere with the movement of that tab as the "thingie" is moved with a thin screwdriver or dial tool.
OK, now put the ring without the disc, back on the fingerwheel, and find a tiny screwdriver or similar thing that you can insert from the inside of the circle of the fingerwheel, pointing toward the outside of it, with which to rotate the "thingie" by its tab: rotate the thingie so that it traps the retainer ring's inner tab under it; and then rotate it in the other direction to remove the retainer ring.
Next, put the metal disc back onto the retainer ring and do the moves in the preceding paragraph.
After that, put the clear plastic number label cover in there, and then the retainer ring, and do the same procedure: in this case the screwdriver tip has to get in over the top of the plastic number label cover, but you'll be able to look closely and see what'a happening.
Finally, remove the disc, and insert the actual number label behind the plastic protector, and then put the disc back into the retainer ring. Now you have the retainer ring and number card fully assembled. Put it back on the fingerwheel and use the screwdriver tip (or whatever tool) to slide the tab of the "thingie" back to the position where it traps the tab from the retainer ring.
Now you can also try removing it that way: by inserting the tip of the screwdriver and sliding the tab of the thingie downward so the retainer is free to be removed.
One more factor: if the number card is chewed-up to any extent at its edges, you may find that it tends to rotate slightly while you're installing the retainer ring on the dial, such that the number card is seen as being rotated slightly clockwise relative to the position of the dial at rest. The best cure for this is a new, crisply-cut number card, but otherwise, you'll just have to fiddle with it.
Also, the repro number cards sold for these dials, do not quite fit correctly: they are slightly off-center. The only fix for that it to trim them on one side so they can be centered, but this make it harder to keep them in place when the dial is assembled. So yes this can get tricky and fiddly, but when you're done, it will all look right.
Grumpy, look here:
http://tinyurl.com/7n3m3fn
This is from the Telephony Document Repository - The TCI Library
Just click on "View" or "Download" to see an illustration of the procedure for removing the dial card retainer ring as described verbally in the previous posts.
Nice. Though it also shows the backside of the retainer ring assembly used on early plastic AE dial fingerwheels, which is entirely different and is removed & reinstalled using an entirely different process, so I wonder if that might confuse some folks.
It would be really useful to do this as a video and include other common types of dials as well.
Yes I think you are correct GG, the picture of the back of the number card assembly on the right side of the page is the one for the early clear plastic finger wheel rather than the metal finger wheel. The one on the left side is correct. I wonder how that got in the document?
Terry
I am such a blithering idiot. After reading GG's instructions and seeing the pics in TCI doc, it's mind numbingly easy. I'm begining to think I shouldnt be allowed to play with tools or sharp objects.
Thanks to all for the help.
Now to debug that Ericofon
I wouldn't be quite that hard on yourself. It is a fairly convoluted arrangement.
Terry
Grumpy, it took me a year or two in highschool, and a couple of broken ones, before I figured out the super-secret AE retainer ring mechanism. Once I got it, I also felt like a dunderhead. The AE dial with plastic fingerwheel and metal retainer took a couple of days to figure out, as did the AE dial with one-piece plastic fingerwheel that mounts on a spider. We didn't have the internet in those days, only our "phone phreak cells" in highschool, where we all were trying to figure out various things.
Grumpy,
Here's my Kellogg dial - A-20750-C Insert pocket screwdriver at # 5 rotate counter- clockwise toward #7 to remove and insert pocket screwdriver in #7 and rotate clockwise towards #5 to install. Hope this helps others.
Here's a great place to get info on your Ericofon!!! stub
http://www.ericofon.com/
Great pictures and instructions Ken!
Same for all AE dials with metal fingerwheels.
Terry
I agree, great pics.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Re: the ericofon, Ive been to his sight & am attempting to get a touchtone phone working.
I followed the directions for wiring & was able to recieve, talk & hear fine.
Keypad wasnt working.
Tried his recommedation of swapping L1 & L2 to resolve a polarity issue and now when I attempt to dial out; I get a high pitched tone that wont quit.
I am going to email him & see if he has any suggestions.
I want this phone to work. I remember when my grandfather came home from attending a convention, he brought this with him. Had to be '69 or '70.
I also remember the backside warming I got when I introduced the phone to the floor and put a nick in the side (which is still there)
OK, now how do you keep the number card from moving... when I had to change out the number card, after locking the holder back down, the card was crooked!
I think that if the card is original it has notches in the side that lock it onto the rest of the holder so it won't move. But "aftermarket" cards probably don't have the proper notches so they are a bit of a battle to keep them lined up properly when putting the number card holder back together.
Terry
Quote from: Dennis Markham on November 20, 2011, 08:43:19 AM
Grumpy, look here:
http://tinyurl.com/7n3m3fn
This is from the Telephony Document Repository - The TCI Library
Just click on "View" or "Download" to see an illustration of the procedure for removing the dial card retainer ring as described verbally in the previous posts.
Thanks a lot for the files in pdf :) its great
Quote from: Dennis Markham on November 20, 2011, 08:43:19 AM
Grumpy, look here:
http://tinyurl.com/7n3m3fn
This is from the Telephony Document Repository - The TCI Library
Just click on "View" or "Download" to see an illustration of the procedure for removing the dial card retainer ring as described verbally in the previous posts.
Hi Dennis.. i'm Denis. I need to know how to lube the dial . Which oïl or grease I need for that please ?. thank you.
You can find that also in the TCI library. I am at work and can't go to the site here but I know it is there because I have referred to it a lot! There is a special dial lube, of course, which is probably very scarce. Most of us use watch oil or light machine oil such as what is used for clocks and typewriters. Available in a handy needle dispenser. Should be available at your local hardware store.
Quote from: HarrySmith on October 02, 2013, 02:07:16 PM
You can find that also in the TCI library. I am at work and can't go to the site here but I know it is there because I have referred to it a lot! There is a special dial lube, of course, which is probably very scarce. Most of us use watch oil or light machine oil such as what is used for clocks and typewriters. Available in a handy needle dispenser. Should be available at your local hardware store.
Yes I have oïl for sewing machine I imagine that its okay.....I have 2 big bottles of this oïl. sorry for my English.
Your english is fine! Do you have a needle type dispenser to apply the oil?
If not you can use a tooth pick, I have done that before I got the needle. Dip the toothpick in the oil and apply a small drop to the points that are shown in the diagram.
Quote from: HarrySmith on October 02, 2013, 02:34:10 PM
Your english is fine! Do you have a needle type dispenser to apply the oil?
If not you can use a tooth pick, I have done that before I got the needle. Dip the toothpick in the oil and apply a small drop to the points that are shown in the diagram.
Yes I have two needles because I repair some mechanical watches and I oiled my dial and now it works very well ...:) oh, I found on TCI Library a pdf concerning the clean up and oiling a dial so I followed the instructions and all work fine ...I have 4 old phones and i'm gonna clean them all..Thank you for your patience on me for my harsh English Harry and for the link concerning TCI Library. ;)
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 19, 2013, 01:34:40 AM
I think that if the card is original it has notches in the side that lock it onto the rest of the holder so it won't move. But "aftermarket" cards probably don't have the proper notches so they are a bit of a battle to keep them lined up properly when putting the number card holder back together.
Yes, just got a set from OPW and the number cards do have 3 notches, one square and 2 semicircular, which match the retainer ring card locking points. Once the plastic cover, also notched the same way, and card are in place and held there by the locking metal back plate, the card does not move in the metal ring.
And, yes, one must virtually destroy an old, cruddy plastic cover to get one apart the first time to see how the convoluted set up really works, and it works quite well once one removes and installs the assembly a few times, without a card in place.
Quote from: Babybearjs on February 19, 2013, 01:28:02 AM
OK, now how do you keep the number card from moving... when I had to change out the number card, after locking the holder back down, the card was crooked!
Use the transparent disc as a template and cut a notch for the loop in the fingerwheel that the prong in the dial card retainer slides into, and another elongated notch in the edge for the fingerwheel retainer. You don't need to cut notches for the dimples.
Quote from: stub on November 29, 2011, 07:01:43 AM...Insert pocket screwdriver at # 5 rotate counter- clockwise toward #7 to remove and insert pocket screwdriver in #7 and rotate clockwise towards #5 to install. Hope this helps others...
Old post but still useful. I hesitated to buy phones with this kind of dial, now it will help me a lot yes! :) Thanks