Hoping someone can shed some light on a brass(?) 50AL that's been in the family for years.
All the info I've found show it should be black not brass. I'm also curious if the 323 on the plate is the serial number. Thanks in advance for the info.
Alex, welcome to the forum!
The 323 is the model of the transmitter itself. Not a serial number. If the phone has been in the family for years, then either someone in your family or some prior owner has intentionally "brassed" it out. The tranmitter cup looks suspiciously like a reproduction, as does the "323" transmitter tag. The blue and white vinyl coated transmitter wires are not original, and their presence suggests that the original transmitter "guts" have perhaps been replaced with a modern transmitter element. The old original transmitters sounded awful and so quite often people have replaced them with modern components. Your receiver cord looks new, and almost looks like a fabric covered lamp cord as opposed to an authentic receiver cord. It does not look like there is a deskstand cord that would go from the phone to the subset. You might want to also check the innards of the receiver to see whether it is original or something more modern. Also check the internal wiring and the felt cover on the base.
These phones, while made of brass were NEVER left unpainted. They were pretty much always black. Unfortunately, many non-collectors think bare brass is how these phones originally looked. It was felt at the time that bare brass was cheap-looking, and besides, without some sort of clear-coat, brass is impossible to keep up a shine.
Deskstands ("candlestick" phones) also needed a separate wall unit called a subset which includes the ringer, induction coil, and capacitor. The induction coil and capacitor are the electronics that match the receiver and transmitter of the phone to the phone line.
Does your phone have the subset?
Now, I know this may all sound critical, but I thought I should tell you what you have. At least know this: Even though a phone collector would be critical of the phone's originality, it is a fact that 99.9% of others won't know the difference, and your phone will at least be something to display and have a conversation piece. :)
Enjoy!
Hello Alex, welcome to the list.
The 50 AL should indeed be black but yours has been "brassed out" as many have to make it look "better" in a 1970s living room.
The tag on the transmitter describes the transmitter itself - it is a model 323.
Is there wiring inside? Sometimes, in addition to brassing out, the transmitter (microphone) and receiver elements are changed to modern items.
Do you want to get it working?
Regards
Jack
Thanks Bill G!!
You're spot on with the receiver cup and I did change the guts on it last winter, new cords as well.
I used to play with this phone as a kid. It had been converted to a desk lamp and was not a functioning phone. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and it is a wonderful conversation piece. The smiles never end when guests find out it actually works!
As for the subset, that I've clever seen...
The cup and faceplate are not reproduction.Cup is the earlier style that has the lug changed and the hole for the wire plugged
Hi Jack, thanks for the reply
The phone does have all the original wiring. Earlier this year I got it working, installed a "network" from Old Phone Guy and replaced the receiver as well. In my response to Bill G I erroneously said the transmitter cup was replaced, meant the receiver.
The speaker in my original receiver is MIA. Probably my fault for loosing it when I was a kid.
I would be interested in getting it back to original condition and adding a subset. It such a great phone with so many memories from my youth. I'd love to do it justice and get it back to it's original setup.
Great phone, Alex!!
I would vote that you paint it black, or have a company powdercoat it for you in gloss black. Those dial sticks don't look good in bare brass IMO; they look beautiful in black!! 8)
As for the subset, you might want to get a '70s version if you just want functionality over authenticity; period-correct subsets from the '20s tend to go for $60-$100 in good shape online. However, I expect you could get a later version for around $20.
Another option is getting a dial card installed. Telephone Archive has great copies available for printout. (Use the selectable ones, those are high-resolution. Copy it into a Word document or Photoshop and resize it to 32 percent of its original size.)
http://www.telephonearchive.com/numbercards/index.html
Here's a nice example of a black-painted 50AL:
Can you show a side view of the dial and fingerstop?
The transmitter and cup are a little unexpected for a 50Al. The cup is an older design that was re-used by the Bell System for this phone, but is otherwise correct. Typically the transmitter tag should have AT&T markings on it, but may not if it was modified. Is the 50-AL mark crossed out?
Here you go Sargeguy, The 50AL is not crossed out.
Thanks for the info on the dial card Christian! I just printed one up!
That is not the dial that a 50-AL would have had originally, it is a later addition. A 50-AL would have had a 2AA or 2AB most likely. This looks like a 4H or 5H. Do you have pictures of the phone with the base removed? It would help to see the wiring and the back of the dial.
Sorry for the delay Sargeguy, Here's a shot of the underneath.
A 5M dial with new wiring. What are your intentions for this? Do you want to get it back into all original condition? Or do you just want to have it look like it is in original condition?
I am sure a lot of desk stands were revived after the war with 5H dials, so it is not wrong, just not original.
A 5M is a bit surprising. It's a 5H adapted for use in 5302 sets from 1955-1965, now reverted to the original type of number plate.
Hi Greg (can I call you Greg?)
Not really sure of my intentions at this point. The phone was a lamp/desk ornament for my first 47 years, now it's a "working" candlestick which I am absolutely thrilled about! I guess to answer your question, I'd have to ask you a question. What would getting it back to original condition entail? The more I think about it, the more interesting the prospect becomes!
For a 50-Al you will need a 2AB dial, a 50-Al wiring harness and a couple of replica cords. You will also need a 144AW receiver and a 295A or 335 subset.
Any suggestions on where to find these items?
Most of those parts come up on eBay pretty frequently and for cheap if you are patient. The dial is another story, not plentiful and thereby a little expensive when they do come up!
Getting a #2 dial isn't exactly affordable-- several have shown up on ebay and ended up selling for close to $300!!
I would see absolutely nothing wrong with using the current #5 dial; it's perfect for the non-collector/purist, but still looks great on a candlestick!!
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 25, 2015, 10:07:12 AM
Getting a #2 dial isn't exactly affordable-- several have shown up on ebay and ended up selling for close to $300!!
I would see absolutely nothing wrong with using the current #5 dial; it's perfect for the non-collector/purist, but still looks great on a candlestick!!
I couldn't agree more. Sticks were routinely upgraded with better dials. A new dial should be the last thing to worry about, and only purchased when the opportunity is right. Once in a while one can still find 2A dials under a hundred $$, but one has to be vigilant about spotting them.
A 50-AL would not have a 5M dial. The 50-AL would have been upgraded to a 151-AL and (possibly) given a 5H. The 2AB or 2AA dials are not rare, although they are sought after and can carry a premium. The #2 dials have "Western Electric" and the patent dates stamped into the side, and the stamped fingerstop, so they look a lot nicer than a 5H. I usually pay about $60-80 on eBay, although they often go for more, with good, complete examples selling for around $125-150 on a good day. An un-notched one piece blank or "American Bell Telephone" marked cup should run about $10 or 15 on eBay or from a fellow collector. The 50-AL wiring harness is another story, those are relatively uncommon and may require some asking around. Still I would not expect to pay more than $30. Replacement receiver cord and subset cord should be about $30 from eBAy or Oldphone works. I recommend the rubber internal jackets with metal cord restraints. A 144AW receiver can be forund from $25-50, depending upon whether it has the AT&T marking around the edge of the cup.
Quote from: Sargeguy on November 25, 2015, 12:12:08 PM
A 50-AL would not have a 5M dial. The 50-AL would have been upgraded to a 151-AL and (possibly) given a 5H.
A 5M is identical to a 5H as far as the dialing unit, gear box, governor, contacts is concerned. It only was called a 5M for the different number plate (just black with with dots) and the added plastic bezel around it that was needed in a 5302 set (similar to a 500). His number plate has already been changed to the 5H type, so the only remaining clue as to its history is the vermillion stamp. Take some acetone and remove it, if you wish, and you won't know the difference.
The point is (not trying to be offensive in any way) is that Alex wants his candlestick to look nice and work well, probably as a conversation piece.
He isn't a full-blown collector like us, so I doubt he would want to pay a lot of money for parts, nor would I think he would want to spend days on end watching eBay for any incredibly cheap 2AB dials to come along. To any average person, this candlestick would look completely factory if he just painted it black and added a black '70s subset. No one would criticize him for having a transmitter cup that doesn't have the correct writing on the back, nor would they notice the fingerstop is mounted to the inside of the dial instead of the outside.
Heck, if I had this, I would have it powdercoated and hook it up to any extra subset I have laying around, and use it, period. I wouldn't put more money into it that it's worth, especially if I'm using it.
I'll step down from Doug's soapbox now... ;D
QuoteWhat would getting it back to original condition entail? The more I think about it, the more interesting the prospect becomes!
Here is a later wooden 295A subset that should work:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-telephone-wood-box-Western-Electric-1908-/161898249546? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-telephone-wood-box-Western-Electric-1908-/161898249546?)
It didn't get any bids at $50 the first time it went up for sale, and $50 is about the going rate for these.
Thanks Sargeguy! I just won the auction!
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on November 25, 2015, 02:03:51 PM
The point is (not trying to be offensive in any way) is that Alex wants his candlestick to look nice and work well, probably as a conversation piece.
He isn't a full-blown collector like us, so I doubt he would want to pay a lot of money for parts, nor would I think he would want to spend days on end watching eBay for any incredibly cheap 2AB dials to come along. To any average person, this candlestick would look completely factory if he just painted it black and added a black '70s subset. No one would criticize him for having a transmitter cup that doesn't have the correct writing on the back, nor would they notice the fingerstop is mounted to the inside of the dial instead of the outside.
Heck, if I had this, I would have it powdercoated and hook it up to any extra subset I have laying around, and use it, period. I wouldn't put more money into it that it's worth, especially if I'm using it.
I'll step down from Doug's soapbox now... ;D
I am interested in getting an early WE candlestick but I would want it to work. I have a 684BA subset laying around. Would that work with a 50AL? Or would something like this work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WORKING-OAK-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-SUBSET-FOR-CANDLESTICK-TELEPHONE-NR-/301817998157?hash=item4645c12b4d:g:7DQAAOSwsFpWSPhS (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WORKING-OAK-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-SUBSET-FOR-CANDLESTICK-TELEPHONE-NR-/301817998157?hash=item4645c12b4d:g:7DQAAOSwsFpWSPhS)
Thank you,
Tina Loyd
Tina, the 212-type oak subset in the eBay auction appears to be missing the induction coil; as configured, it could be used only as a extension bell.
Since the 684-BA subset has the post-1930 anti-sidetone circuit, a 151-AL, which is also anti-side tone, would be preferable -- so far as working properly -- to the 50-AL or 51-AL, if you do decide to go with the 684-BA.
That 212 has been re-purposed, it has some non-Western Electric parts on it. I would shy away from it. When looking for subsets for a 50-AL, choose later wooden subsets that have the Western Electric decals rather than stamped logo. Preferably these would be painted black. Better yet, find a 334 or 335 subset. Other choices include a 634 or 684, but these are a little later and would be more appropriate for a 51-AL or 151-AL.
634A and 684A are appropriate for 151AL, but not for 51-AL or 50-AL.
I should have said 534 or 584!!!