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Clear WE302 - New addition for a collector somewhere...

Started by easytiger, October 25, 2010, 10:03:46 PM

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Dennis Markham

Quote from: Jim S. on October 26, 2010, 04:50:53 PM
Ray doesn't put in the switch boss on his clear 302's, however some "real" 302's are missing that as well, (Ray didn't realize that at the time).


Jim, I thought that was the case--that some "real ones" were made without the switch boss.

Dan

Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 26, 2010, 02:11:15 PM
I was under the impression that all of Ray copies left the lower left front case hole relief out of the casting deliberately to avoid fakes. This particular phone does not have the relief. Besides isn't $3250.00 a little steep for one with a repro handset ?
I may be wrong but I think this is not original.
D/P

If you read the listing, it says only the handset is a repro and the housing and the rest of the phone are original. Kotke didn't do the housing :)
"Imagine how weird telephones would look if our ears weren't so close to our mouths." - Steven Wright

Dan/Panther

#17
Dan;
Even so for $3200.00, with a repro handset, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to think the entire phone may be a repro. I wouldn't have bid on it.
Someone ask Ray if this is his or not.
BTW, that handset is not even closed to Ray's. Maybe the entire phone is original early model. Compare the handset to Ray's would he mold Western Electric into it ??
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Jim Stettler

Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 27, 2010, 12:24:07 AM
Dan;
Even so for $3200.00, with a repro handset, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to think the entire phone may be a repro. I wouldn't have bid on it.
Someone ask Ray if this is his or not.
BTW, that handset is not even closed to Ray's. Maybe the entire phone is original early model. Compare the handset to Ray's would he mold Western Electric into it ??
D/P


Ray Did make some solid handsets, Most of his are the "hollow" style like were used on the color 302's.

By solid, I am referring to the style w a wiring "tube".
I think he made at least a couple of true solid as well.

Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Wallphone

#19
When I was at Ray's house he showed me the handset that he used for the Master and it was a colored handset. Besides being hollow it seemed like it was easier getting the "Trap Door" off in the handle. That piece is where the writing is at. I never knew that this piece was separate from the main body.

Sargeguy

I would definitely apply the milk test to this phone.  "If you think you might smell something, don't take a sip."
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Dave F

Quote from: Dan/Panther on October 26, 2010, 02:11:15 PM
I was under the impression that all of Ray copies left the lower left front case hole relief out of the casting deliberately to avoid fakes. This particular phone does not have the relief. Besides isn't $3250.00 a little steep for one with a repro handset ?
I may be wrong but I think this is not original.
D/P
My thoughts exactly.  If I was thinking of spending that kind of money for a phone, I would make darn sure that it was original.

Russ Kirk

#22
Well, there is another clear 302 on eBay. This one starts at $3000. Well known telecom collector is selling it. He has - short of a museum - one of the best overall private collections I have ever seen.  Also, he is one nice guy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-CLEAR-RESIN-Western-Electric-Model-302-/110604990732?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c092390c

Russ....
- Russ Kirk
ATCA & TCI

Jim Stettler

I am surprised that the plungers are black and the dial is white bodied.
Usually a "white body dial", clear 302 has clear holloiw plungers.
(Clear colored)

If they were made with a black dial then the plungers are usually black.
(clear black set).



Dan Golden is the seller. I trust him on any of the statements he makes regarding telephone.

Just my observations,
Jim


You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Jim Stettler

In was looking closer at the photo. I think the handset may be a Ray K.
I think the "real" solid handsets had the internal wiring a bit different.

This one is also missing the switch boss .

I suspect that when the phone got chipped , they removed the dial and sold the phone cheap at a show. I suspect the dial should be a black based dial.

I haven't paid much attention to the photos or listing (yet).
More comments as I pay more attention,
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

HarrySmith

For those of you not on the ATCA list this same discussion was going on there and Ray stepped in to clear it up. Since he labled his post as "open" I have taken the liberty of copying it for you all:


Well, I guess I'd better jump in here and shed a little "light" on this thread.


In regards to the auction in question:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-CLEAR-ACRYLIC-Western-Electric-Model-302-/110604990732


This is indeed one of my "solid" F1 handset creations; 100% certain. As for the body, as Mr. Bloom previously pointed out, I did utilize a WE 250 body to create the tooling for the body because it does NOT have the aforementioned turn-key boss molded into the housing as all of the original Clear 302s that I had looked over were equipped with.


I deliberately did this to "mark" these housings as MY creations, because there was just no good place on a clear 302 body to sign & number them, but I still wanted to clearly make known that I was not attempting to create a counterfeit clear 302. On some of my very 1st clear 302s, I did sign/number them on the back in the lower left corner (see photo below). I have since however seen at least one clear 302 (original?) that is not of my creation that does NOT have this turn-key boss within, so if you are ever not certain, I would be happy to lend my expertise in determining authenticity.


One other "telltale" clue is that I usually supply SOLID clear plungers; the original clear plungers were hollow (same as on the colored 302s). I did however have 3 or 4 sets of original/clear plungers that I utilized in a few creations. Yes, early colored sets had matching solid plungers (which I can supply), but all of the original clear 302s that I have ever examined have had either bakelite plungers (black), or had the hollow clears.


As for the (solid) handset, the comments were partially correct; WE didn't tin (solder-coating) the wires, but instead chrome-plated them. Also, in this example, you can see the brass threaded inserts are ALL knurled. WE utilized (almost exclusively) a hex/turned threaded insert that had no knurling (diamond pattern). You can see examples of these original types of brass inserts in the clear body.


Finally, I did at one time (2004) create a very few of the later, hollow/clear handsets like the one in the link/photo that Harry posted from my website. These too are marked within so as not to be able to be passed off as an original. I have posted some more photos below for your preview.


Yes, I still am able to create these, and the price with solid handset will be quoted on a custom basis. I will be able to cast the hollow handsets at a later time, as the tooling only lasted for about 4 handsets before being destroyed. The last complete clear 302 that I placed on eBay for auction sold for $1,292.00 in 2005. I haven't checked my records, but I believe I have cast -9- of these to date. Every-single-one is created by hand (totally), and takes a great deal of time and patience, so they will never be mass-produced in the quality that I can provide, and should retain their value (we never really know do we?) and even increase in value over the years to come.


Here is the web link to the photos of the clear 302. If you look further at the various public web albums that I have posted here, you will also see the very complex "Hollow F1 Handset project" among others.  Comments are welcome.


http://picasaweb.google.com/kleenax/Clear302#






Ray Kotke
http://telephonecreations.com
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

Doug Rose

Wow...Ray has only pressed NINE clear 302s! I would have thought it was in the 100s. I have one that I bought as just the clear plastics kit as I had the rest, all dated 4/39 for the opening date of the 4/30/1939. I know personally of three others that own one. I guess price wise I was extremely fortunate, as I purchased my kit before he listed his on eBay at a small fraction of the eBay selling price. It took forever to get to me, but it was well worth the wait. If you collect 302s, these are a must. Everyone notices it when I show off my phone room. Ray also made a really cool Worlds Fair Dial card. He is an artiste. I guess these are much more scarce than I had originally thought....Doug
Kidphone

HarrySmith

He does say "complete 302's" so maybe he does not include the "kits" in his tally ???
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

Doug Rose

Quote from: HarrySmith on November 02, 2010, 02:54:41 PM
He does say "complete 302's" so maybe he does not include the "kits" in his tally ???
Harry....you could be right, I read it as "I haven't checked my records, but I believe I have cast -9- of these to date."....Doug
Kidphone

Jim Stettler

I have a housing from Ray. It is a "2nd". It has minor imprefections so he did not want to offer to the general public or collectors.

I alos have an AE40 housing and a 354 housing that are also 2nd's.

I did trade Ray for a "Fantasy" clear blue AE40 at the 1st Lyon's show.

Jim

BTW

Study the wires inside the solid handset, Ray usess the same technique on his other solid handsets.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.