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Auction 70 - WE 1500 1960 Field Trial Set (?)

Started by Dan, June 29, 2011, 06:36:07 AM

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paul-f

Sorry Terry.

My family tells me I've already oversubscribed my quota of uninteresting phones.  That leaves cash !!   ;)
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

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AE_Collector

Quote from: paul-f on October 17, 2011, 11:59:36 PM
Sorry Terry.

My family tells me I've already oversubscribed my quota of uninteresting phones.  That leaves cash !!   ;)

Yes I seem to recall that you were working at reducing some of the phone clutter around your place?

I think I recall (vaguely) the ebaY auction where you won the AE Autovon set and I think it was way out of my price range! Have you ever seen another one or any other variations of AE Autovon sets?

Terry

GG



Heh, dyslexia strikes hard... correction: the precedence keys were to the LEFT of the dial, per Paul F's example.  (Interesting how even visual memory can be affected like that: I flipped it left/right.)

AE_Collector

Quote from: GG on October 18, 2011, 07:40:05 AM


Heh, dyslexia strikes hard... correction: the precedence keys were to the LEFT of the dial, per Paul F's example.  (Interesting how even visual memory can be affected like that: I flipped it left/right.)

Photoshop can fix that for you if you like.

Terry

paul-f

Quote from: AE_collector on October 18, 2011, 01:45:16 AM
Have you ever seen another one or any other variations of AE Autovon sets?

Terry,

I've seen several of this model over the years and don't recall any other AE-branded contemporary models. 

One notable example is in the JKL Museum:

http://www.johnlarue.net/cgi-bin/photos.isc?submenuItemId=102&photoId=1314&lookupalbum=13
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

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Dave F

Quote from: GG on October 17, 2011, 04:42:43 AM

Lions & Tigers & Bears, oh my!

For anyone who doesn't know this, those AE dials with the star and diamond instead of asterisk and pound-sign keys, are exceedingly rare.

My AE 890 doesn't have a Star and Diamond dial, but my blue Starlite does.  I also have a prototype W.E. 2500 set with an even rarer W.E. Star and Diamond dial.  Will have to figure out where it is and post a picture.

Dave F

#51
Quote from: paul-f on October 18, 2011, 01:31:46 PM
Quote from: AE_collector on October 18, 2011, 01:45:16 AM
Have you ever seen another one or any other variations of AE Autovon sets?

Terry,

I've seen several of this model over the years and don't recall any other AE-branded contemporary models. 

One notable example is in the JKL Museum:

http://www.johnlarue.net/cgi-bin/photos.isc?submenuItemId=102&photoId=1314&lookupalbum=13
I have one of these AE AUTOVON sets.  Once again, I'll try to find it and then post a picture.  AE also made an AUTOVON adjunct dial.  The JKL Museum has one which I have seen, but I don't know if it is currently on display.

Dave F

Quote from: GG on October 17, 2011, 04:42:43 AM
(Do you also have one of the AE Autovon sets with the red precedence keys arranged in a horizontal row to the right of the touch calling keypad?  I've only seen one of those before and it sure isn't mine!  Those were used in Autovon in Europe (NATO), and the WE version were used in the US, so very few of them would have made it back here to land in the hands of historic telephony enthusiasts.)
I believe the AE AUTOVON sets were also occasionally used in the United States.  Mine came from Hawaii, and has a Hawaiian telephone company sticker on the bottom.

Dave

AE_Collector

#53
Quote from: Dave F on October 18, 2011, 10:55:20 PM
I believe the AE AUTOVON sets were also occasionally used in the United States.  Mine came from Hawaii, and has a Hawaiian telephone company sticker on the bottom.

Dave

I would assume that AE Autovon sets may have been used in any of the GTE operating areas whether in USA or Canada?

Nice Starlite by the way! Those early AE Touch Call dials were crap but collectible all the same!!

Terry

GG



Terry - Actually it went like this:  WE equipment was used in CONUS-AUTOVON (continental United States).  AE equipment was used in NATO-AUTOVON (Europe).

I don't know about the Pacific, but there's a very substantial NSA installation in Hawaii, which keeps an ear on things to the East, and my instincts tell me they used WE equipment at that site.  Though I may be wrong.  If other bases in Hawaii used AE equipment, it wasn't because Hawaii was GTE turf.  Autovon was a world unto itself, designed and operated per Pentagon specifications irrespective of the local telcos. 

So here's a wild question.  I have a WE Autovon set in light gray, 6-button 1A2 keyset type, with the large square line/hold buttons as seen on type 830 and 2830 sets.  Missing faceplate.  Anyone know where I could find a faceplate for it?

paul-f

Quote from: Dave F on October 18, 2011, 10:43:21 PM
AE also made an AUTOVON adjunct dial.  The JKL Museum has one which I have seen, but I don't know if it is currently on display.

I took a photo of it on a past visit.  The adjunct is posted and on display here:

  http://www.paul-f.com/weAutovon.html#NonWE

Perhaps they've cleaned it by now.
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Dave F

Quote from: GG on October 19, 2011, 11:56:12 AM
So here's a wild question.  I have a WE Autovon set in light gray, 6-button 1A2 keyset type, with the large square line/hold buttons as seen on type 830 and 2830 sets.  Missing faceplate.  Anyone know where I could find a faceplate for it?
The only things harder to find than AUTOVON phones are PARTS for AUTOVON phones.  Believe me, I'm an expert when it comes to searching for AUTOVON parts.  If you ever consider selling your faceplateless set, I would be interested.

By the way, if your AUTOVON keyset is a 3568HT, the key caps on the buttons are NOT the same as those on 830/2830s.  The shape (aspect ratio) is different, and they are not interchangeable.  (Both types will attach to the key strip, but the faceplate holes are quite different.)  For years I didn't realize that, until I ran across an AUTOVON keyset which was missing a key cap.  I figured that I would just salvage a cap from a junker 830, but no such luck.  A rude awakening to be sure, but at least now I know better.

GG



Hi Dave-  Assuming the WE set is a 3568 HT, what's it worth in cash or trade?  (I just went looking for it, it's not in the most-obvious place where it should be.)   

I have a small handful of ITT GB 3568 S in green, NOS, complete.  What are those worth in cash or trade?  (I'm going to keep a couple of them, have a couple available for potential sale/trade.) 

Yes, the key caps on the WE line keystrip are odd.  Slightly wider than square. 

Also the dial keys for star and "A" have removable button caps.  I have a WE 66A3A dial, dated 10-73 (which was on the shelf where it "should" be), missing the star key that way (one of these days I'll disassemble it and replace that button with an asterisk from another damaged dial; these do appear to be interchangeable, though disassembling DTMF dials is a bear of a task. 

3568 was supposed to use 4-wire transmission but strangely enough, when I hook up the ITT sets, they work like conventional telephones on tip & ring.  (One of these may get converted to a 3-line/3-hold keystrip unless someone tells me that's an unforgivable sin.)

Something else I've been looking for, entirely unrelated to the Autovon stuff, is a small Strowger or crossbar PBX, minimum capacity 2 CO lines x 10 stations, preferably 4 x 16 or larger, with ground or flash recall.

--

Paul, about that AE Autovon DTMF adaptor, looks as if AE took the geometry of the WE DTMF adaptors and turned it upside down.  Like putting their message lamps on the right side of the dial: WE does it this way, AE does it the opposite way.  Funny, that. 

Dave F

#58
Quote from: GG on October 20, 2011, 04:26:58 AM


Hi Dave-  Assuming the WE set is a 3568 HT, what's it worth in cash or trade?  (I just went looking for it, it's not in the most-obvious place where it should be.)
Almost nothing ever seems to be in the most-obvious place where it should be!  I just started searching for my AE AUTOVON set, and it isn't where I thought it would be.  To find it, it looks like I'm gonna have to travel through another dimension.  It will be a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind (and tenite and touchtones).  I'll be on a journey to a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination (and piles of cardboard boxes).  I can see the signpost up ahead: My next stop will be ....  Well, you probably can surmise just which Zone my next stop will be.

Now, about your 3568HT -- Complete, with the faceplate, it would easily be worth at least $200.  Because the faceplate is such a prominent and important visual component, without it the phone is worth considerably less, particularly since it's virtually impossible to find replacement AUTOVON parts.  Of course, discussion of any phone prices is always iffy at best.  On any given day (particularly on eBay) you can never really know what somebody with more money than common sense will be willing to pay.  Send me a P.M. and we can talk about it.
Quote
I have a small handful of ITT GB 3568 S in green, NOS, complete.  What are those worth in cash or trade?  (I'm going to keep a couple of them, have a couple available for potential sale/trade.)
I have seen the green ITT AUTOVON keysets, but don't presently have any.  They're not as desirable as if they were W.E., but they are AUTOVON, and they too are tough to find.  There had been at least one company selling stacks of them a while back for a very low price, but they sold out before I found out about them.  Again, I might be inclined to take one if you are interested. 
Quote
Yes, the key caps on the WE line keystrip are odd.  Slightly wider than square. 
Surprise! We learn something new every day, don't we?!
Quote
Also the dial keys for star and "A" have removable button caps.  I have a WE 66A3A dial, dated 10-73 (which was on the shelf where it "should" be), missing the star key that way (one of these days I'll disassemble it and replace that button with an asterisk from another damaged dial; these do appear to be interchangeable, though disassembling DTMF dials is a bear of a task.
On all non-illuminated W.E. AUTOVON dials, all the special-service buttons (FO,F,I,P,Star,A) have removable caps.  When the AUTOVON hardware was in development, the military had not yet settled on the nomenclature.  In addition, they wanted the flexibility to make changes at a later date.  Rather than have to replace whole dials and phones on a mass scale, the removable caps were what I consider a fairly elegant solution.  As an example, at the very beginning, the function which we now call Flash Override (FO) was to be called Super Flash (SF).  I have been told that there exist prototype AUTOVON dials that have a SF key cap in the FO position,  but I have never seen one.  Eventually, the military brain-trust decided that Super Flash sounded too much like something out of Buck Rogers, and the designation was changed.

I have disassembled (and reassembled) W.E. touchtone dials for repair, including some AUTOVONs.  (If you want a real challenge, try taking apart an AUTOVON Card Dialer dial.  That was a rare treat!)  It gets tricky with so many small parts and springs, but it can be done if one has lots of patience.  Some of the parts are pretty fragile, so go slow and be gentle.
Quote
3568 was supposed to use 4-wire transmission but strangely enough, when I hook up the ITT sets, they work like conventional telephones on tip & ring.  (One of these may get converted to a 3-line/3-hold keystrip unless someone tells me that's an unforgivable sin.)
I don't know about the ITT sets, but W.E. 3568s were built for both 2-wire and 4-wire use.  They came factory-wired for 2-wire, and have an internal relay which, when activated, switches the phone to the 4-wire configuration.  Interestingly, 3504s (W.E. single-line AUTOVON sets) came factory-wired for 4-wire and have to be manually rewired for 2-wire, as they have no switchover relay in them.

EGAD! YIKES! Ripping apart an AUTOVON phone (even an ITT) to make a Frankenphone ought to be cause to get you booted off the Forum!  That's like taking apart a BMW and converting it into a Honda Civic.  Just thinking about it will probably give me nightmares.  Please.......!!

Dave

GG



Hi Dave-

The WE set is probably not for sale or trade since it's the only one of those I have, and if I have to fabricate a faceplate for it ...well hmm, some day.  Though I sold one of the NOS green ITT ones years ago for $300.

WE key caps: once you pointed it out, I recalled that they were wider; it hadn't occurred to me that they wouldn't be interchangeable with anything else WE made, because WE makes "everything" interchangeable (almost).

Clever that all the special service button caps are interchangeable.  Agreed, SF would have sounded like Buck Rogers, and Science Fiction too:-)   

Agreed, slow & gentle with mechanical touchtone dials.  I've been doing dials since highschool, including a few touchtone, so I think I could probably pull it off.  If I could come up with a WE touchtone dial that was otherwise wrecked e.g. the coils were smashed or something.  I'm not going to use a working one as a parts donor for that project.  (IMHO the easiest dials to work on are AE, but they also need work more often than WE #5 and later.  Know where I can get a #4?)

I'll go looking for that relay next time I see the WE set.  There isn't one in the ITT version.  The WE version also has an odd ringer in it.

I've also got one by Harris in "ITT red" with electronic key contacts and a bunch of odd special function keys.  Never saw one like that before.   Also have a French rotary 2 line x 5- or 6-station key system phone, with US Embassy markings on it.  Odd one, that, like a French version of an HES 2-10 in terms of function, and with mechanical line-in-use indicators. 

Re. ripping apart Autovon phones:  OK, if I do it, I won't post the results here!:-)  Realistically it's unlikely unless there's a clear way to do it that's nondestructive and fully reversible.  Frankly this place has had an influence on me in terms of what is and isn't appropriate/acceptable, so I'm much less likely now to go 'round mongrelizing parts from hither to yon.  Canadian AE (Philips) and NE Uniphones with GPO-UK (Siemens) dials on them are acceptable because that was telco standard practice, and frankly I think they're cool that way and I like the GPO #10 slipping cam dial in general.  I had to wait to find a Uniphone with GPO dial for cheep, but there it sits in my "in" pile awaiting restoration.   

Now if only I could get my hands on a Hagelin M-209 Converter (WW2 cryptography machine, also known as US Army SIGABA if I recall correctly)....!