WE #2 GB dial

[rdelius]

Bought this at the Raleigh Hamfest for $10.00.Never seen one before ,even though I rebuilt thousands of dials over a 25 year period at COT.

[Jack Ryan]

Not that common. Dr. Wolff  says it's the original dial for an A Handset Mounting; others say it is definitely not for an A1 (because the connections aren't suitable). Many say it's a CO dial.

I haven't actually searched, but I haven't seen a WE/Bell reference that states its purpose.

Is the finger stop marking clear or is it over stamped?

Thanks

Jack

[poplar1]

A. T. & T. Co.'s Specifications 4810, December, 1927, shows 2H-type dials for  A- , B-, and C-type handset mountings.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/697-at-t-spec-4810-stations-hand-telephone-sets

(In TCI Library)

                  Dials:               #2-HA, #2-HB, #2-HE DIALS
                                           Six spring, five terminal, station dials for use
                                           With B1, B2, B3 and A1, A2, A3 and C1 Handset
                                           Mountings. The 2-AA, 2-AB or 2-AE dials may
                                           be used in place of the 2-HA, 2-HB or 2-HE
                                           at common battery signaling, local battery
                                           talking stations.

[poplar1]

Note also that this dial was manufactured in 1930, after the patent dates had moved from the rim to the back of the dial, and at least two years after the above SPEC was written. The screw terminal designations on the 2G-type dial, including "GN", do not correspond to those used in either desk stands or hand telephone sets.

[Jack Ryan]

Well, I know that but Laurence Wolff, in his book Desk Telephones of The Bell System, claims that the 2G was the first subscriber handset dial and likely appeared on the A Handset mounting.

I don't agree but I don't know what evidence he had.

Jack

[rdelius]

Finger  stop stamping not as clear as other #2 dials I have.might have been restamped/rebuilt in  1-30.Has the origional brass fingerwheel and notchless plate.Wish I knew if it was proper for an A1 set.My $3.00 A1 could use it-found at raleigh flea market years ago

[unbeldi]

Well, I know that but Laurence Wolff, in his book Desk Telephones of The Bell System, claims that the 2G was the first subscriber handset dial and likely appeared on the A Handset mounting.

I don't agree but I don't know what evidence he had.

Jack

In my opinion it is a central office or switchboard dial, because the replacement of it was the 4GB dial, which in turn was replaced by the 5E, and finally by the 6E/6P dials.  This sequence is established from the card catalog.  If the dial were a subscriber telephone dial, it would have been replaced differently.   Also, the terminal designations on the 2GB were the same as those of the other switchboard dials of the time.

Attached is a comparison of contacts on 2A and 2G dials.  The 2G dial can easily be used as 2A, by bridging the B and R terminals to create BK, so it is perhaps understandable how such confusion could arise.

The correct dial for any of the handset mountings used as subscriber equipment, is definitively the H-type.   However, it appears to me that the 2HB arrived about the same time within months as the B-handset mounting, so there may be a question of just what was used on the A mounting previously.  Perhaps a D-number dial at first, similar to be A mounting having a D-number at first?

On the other hand, it seems to me that the A mounting was used already for several years before introduction as a subscriber telephone, in central office settings or in other test environments, where it could certainly have used a central office dial.
AT&T conducted several trials starting ca. 1924 (or even earlier?), with the A, B, C, and D handsets, before finally manufacturing the E1A type at Hawthorne in 1926.  I have not found references, I believe, that state whether or not the sets used in those trials were equipped with dials.


PS: added the H type dial schematic in the graph for comparison.

[poplar1]

Finger  stop stamping not as clear as other #2 dials I have.might have been restamped/rebuilt in  1-30.Has the origional brass fingerwheel and notchless plate.Wish I knew if it was proper for an A1 set.My $3.00 A1 could use it-found at raleigh flea market years ago

In any case, this particular 2G dial was not made for a D-76869/ A1, because it was made in 1930. Regardless of whether a 2G, modified 2G, or D-type dial was used on A1s before Dec. 1927, it is fairly certain that only 2H dials were used for A-, B- and C-type mountings by 1928, except as noted for C.B.S., L.B.T. sets, where a 2A-type could be used.

[unbeldi]

Finger  stop stamping not as clear as other #2 dials I have.might have been restamped/rebuilt in  1-30.Has the origional brass fingerwheel and notchless plate.Wish I knew if it was proper for an A1 set.My $3.00 A1 could use it-found at raleigh flea market years ago

In any case, this particular 2G dial was not made for a D-76869/ A1, because it was made in 1930. Regardless of whether a 2G, modified 2G, or D-type dial was used on A1s before Dec. 1927, it is fairly certain that only 2H dials were used for A-, B- and C-type mountings by 1928, except as noted for C.B.S., L.B.T. sets, where a 2A-type could be used.

I was trying to establish that on technical grounds more than timing.
The date on the dial cannot alone be used to make the argument that it wasn't for an A1, because WECo certainly has made replacement parts for other types of equipment after the equipment was discontinued. E.g., after WW-II they continued to make 5J dials apparently despite having discontinued the manufacturing of colored sets.

But I believe talk of 2G on A1 sets should best be forgotten.   If the dial doesn't fit.... you must acquit.

[poplar1]

Attached is a comparison of contacts on 2A and 2G dials.  The 2G dial can easily be used as 2A, by bridging the B and R terminals to create BK, so it is perhaps understandable how such confusion could arise.

There does appear to be a soldered strap between B and R.

[unbeldi]

Is the 2GB dial functioning well enough to measure dial speed?

[unbeldi]

Attached is a comparison of contacts on 2A and 2G dials.  The 2G dial can easily be used as 2A, by bridging the B and R terminals to create BK, so it is perhaps understandable how such confusion could arise.

There does appear to be a soldered strap between B and R.

Yes, I noticed that too, but I attribute it to some radio enthusiast using it for a newly-created life-cycle.

[rdelius]

It runs well ,have not lubricated  or cleaned.Runs on the fast side approx 12pps

[unbeldi]

It runs well ,have not lubricated  or cleaned.Runs on the fast side approx 12pps

Interesting, usually they get slower with age, don't they?

The 2C dial was adjusted to 12 pps for use on linemen set and possibly test boards.
But the replacement for the 2C was a 4C.
The 2G was a separate line.
The 2D and 2E dials ran at 10 pps, I believe, while the 2F was the fastest dial at 20 pps.   (2 F = Fast ?)

[Jack Ryan]

But I believe talk of 2G on A1 sets should best be forgotten.   If the dial doesn't fit.... you must acquit.

As I said, I disagree with Wolff's statements. What I would like to know is, as Wolff had official access to the relevant archives, how did he come up with what is technically and logically incongruous? He seems to think there was a period between the introduction of the A Handset Mounting and the introduction of the 2H dial when the 2G was used - why?

I did not suggest that (Wolf suggested) that this particular dial was used on an A Handset Mounting. The assertion was that the type 2G was initially used.

I don't accept his statements regarding the development of the E Handset either but that is another story. I think the combination though, reflects badly on the book.

Jack