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Western Electric 653 Won't Break a Dial Tone When Dialing a Number

Started by gands-antiques, July 23, 2014, 08:43:33 PM

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gands-antiques

It's probably original.  Looks like it is dated IV 40. 

unbeldi

Alright, seems like a nice original telephone set in outstanding condition.

That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.  Do you have any idea where the set came from? Sometimes sellers have good information about that, based on where they found it.


poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM

That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.


Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM

That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.


Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.

Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only")   Mostly, yes.

The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with  151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:

The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs.  ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....

Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field.   So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.


gands-antiques

Actually,  I went into my phone room and was reminded that another 4H was on the phone when I got it.   It doesn't have a date stamp on it but it has a "SEATTLE" WEst 7-2119 number card on it. 

I tried the Seattle #4 dial,  a #6 dial and the #4 that is currently on it trying to get it to work.

I bought the phone in Wichita KS a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks,
Gary

poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM

That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.


Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.

Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only")   Mostly, yes.

The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with  151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:

The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs.  ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....

Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field.   So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.



You're correct that I should not have been exclusive. For the record, I was basing it on the following:

Section C63.324, Issue 3, 10-30-36 covers the sidetone and anti-sidetone common battery hand telephone set connections for the following class of service:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only)
It includes the 103, 203, and 212.

Section C63.374, Issue 1, 3-2-36 shows the 51C and 151C Desk Stands for only one class of service:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only).

Section C63.232, Issue 2, 4-18-40 shows the 553C, 653BC, and 653CE:
Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only).

The dials and dial leads  in the diagrams in the above sections are shown with solid lines. Usually, these are shown
with dotted lines, indicating both manual and dial options.

C63.323, C63.373, and C63.231 show the more common sets, which were used for other classes of service including
individual lines (manual and dial) and two-party selective message rate lines (manual only).
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

poplar1

Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 26, 2014, 02:47:18 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 26, 2014, 02:18:53 PM

That the dial was added a year later isn't so disturbing, perhaps the exchange got upgraded to dial shortly later.


Possibly, but the 653-BC and other similar tip party ID sets were used only on dial lines.

Well, I don't think it should be that exclusive ("only")   Mostly, yes.

The 1935 Western Electric catalog shows the 684BC subset, which is the equivalent in conjunction with  151-C desk stand or D6/203-telephone, and states the following:

The 684BC Subscriber Set is a common battery desk type set (anti-sidetone) with enclosed gongs.  ... Intended for use in either manual or dial service for two-party selective message rate service....

Now... they are known to make mistakes in the catalogs, as anyone, as the writing in these descriptions is always very generic and we know much less what actually happened in the field.   So, for example, the second subscriber set on the two-party line is technically a standard -A set with ring-party selection, but there are mentionings, IIRC, that state for simplicity both stations on the message rate lines may use the same equipment, albeit rewired appropriately for the ring party.



Catalog #9 does state that the 684-BC subset can be used with either manual or dial phones. However, the 203 hand telephone set, which was often connected to a 684-BC (for tip party on message rate 2-party lines), is listed in that same catalog only as a dial model: 203A with a 4HA dial, 203B with a 4HB dial, and 203C with a 4HE dial.  So there seems to be some inherent contradiction in the description of the 684-BC, since to date no code has been found for a manual 203.

AT&T Spec 4566 (1926) does show that at that time both manual and dial 50-C and 51-C desk stands could be used with 554-C subsets for the tip party subscriber on two-party selective message rate lines. However, by 1936 (C63.374 Issue 1), the 51-C and 151-C are shown only for dial central offices.

By 1931, 103s (A2, B2, D2) and 203s (B6, D6) were listed only with dials for "two party selective message rate dial stations--party on tip." (C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31 Hand Set Mountings, A to E types, Description.) It does appear that by 1931, manual sets wired for tip party identification were no longer available, even if they existed in 1926 or earlier.  (No 51-type desk stands have been reported with original manufacture dates after 1930.)

EDIT: Even though there was no code for a manual 203, the 304 model used the same A-B-C-D suffix as the 302s (302s with 2-conductor mounting cords.) So there is a manual 304, coded 304A:

                   2.05  The 304-type telephone set, the external appearance of
                            which is the same as the 302 type shown in Figs. 1 and 2,
                 is used in dial common battery central office areas on the tip-
                 party station of message rate, automatic ticketing,  and auto-
                 matic message accounting. However, in addition to the dial sets,
                 a manual 304A set equipped with an apparatus blank is provided
                 for use at tip-party stations where cutover to dial message-rate
                 service is contemplated. The dial sets are coded 304B, 304C, and
                 304D, and all sets are equipped with a 3-conductor mounting
                 cord.


Source:  BSP Section C32.502, Issue 8, Oct., 1955
Telephone Sets
302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 307, 309, and 329 Types
Description and Use

In the cited BSP,  302s are used for several classes of service including "2-party Selective Message Rate (Manual and Ring-Party Dial only.)" Manual 304s (304A) are used only where cutover to dial is anticipated.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

I found on my disk what appears one of the original Issue 1 BSP sections for the 653-type sets. This was BSP Section C42.601 Issue 1, 1 June 1931 (Station Installation and Maintenance), entitled Anti-Sidetone Subscriber Sets - 433, 633, and 653 Types - Connections. The document divides station sets by  manual and dial instruments according to service types.

The 653-BC appears in the dial section only. This does provide more evidence that there was no intention for two-party message rate service on manual exchanges.

The BSP was released at the same time (6-1-31) with the rest of the AST documents.


poplar1

References for Two-Party Selective, Message Rate Lines, Tip Party:

653BC:
C42.601 Issue 1 can be found in TCI library here:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/4643-c42-601-i1-jun31-anti-sidetonesubscribersets433-633-653-types-connections

653BC:
C62.232 Issue 2, 4-18-40--not found in TCI library
C62.232 Issue 3, 5-31-45: (adds info on 653CE)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3490-c63-232-i3-common-battery-wall-set-connections

50-C, 51-C. 553-C:
AT&T Spec 4566, Feb. 1926 Machine Switching, pp. 66-69
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_view/5345-at-t-spec-4566-feb26-machine-switching-stations-t-ocr-r

51-C and 151-C:
C63.374 Issue 1, 3-2-36--not found in TCI library
C63.374 Issue 3, 6-8-45: (adds 151R rewired)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3484-c63-374-i3-desk-stand-connections-cb

203:
C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31, Handset Mountings, A to E Type, Description--not found in TCI library

203:
C63.324 Issue 3, 10-30-36---not found in TCI library


304:
C32.502 Issue 8, Oct. 1955 
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3302-c32-502-i8-oct55-tel-sets-302-303-304-305-306-307-309-329-types-tl
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Contempra

Quote from: poplar1 on July 28, 2014, 08:51:28 PM
References for Two-Party Selective, Message Rate Lines, Tip Party:

653BC:
C42.601 Issue 1 can be found in TCI library here:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/4643-c42-601-i1-jun31-anti-sidetonesubscribersets433-633-653-types-connections

653BC:
C62.232 Issue 2, 4-18-40--not found in TCI library
C62.232 Issue 3, 5-31-45: (adds info on 653CE)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3490-c63-232-i3-common-battery-wall-set-connections

50-C, 51-C. 553-C:
AT&T Spec 4566, Feb. 1926 Machine Switching, pp. 66-69
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_view/5345-at-t-spec-4566-feb26-machine-switching-stations-t-ocr-r

51-C and 151-C:
C63.374 Issue 1, 3-2-36--not found in TCI library
C63.374 Issue 3, 6-8-45: (adds 151R rewired)
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3484-c63-374-i3-desk-stand-connections-cb

203:
C62.301 Issue 2, 6-1-31, Handset Mountings, A to E Type, Description--not found in TCI library

203:
C63.324 Issue 3, 10-30-36---not found in TCI library


304:
C32.502 Issue 8, Oct. 1955 
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/3302-c32-502-i8-oct55-tel-sets-302-303-304-305-306-307-309-329-types-tl


thanks Poplar.. useful links ! :)