Connecticut TP-6-A 'Toaster' has arrived.

[Stephen Furley]

This thing weighs a ton!  The metal body is in reasonable condition, with a bit of paint worn off around the handset rest.  The line cord is the usual horrible silver flat modular one; that will have to go. The handset cord is a 500 type one, with strain relief, but is very thick, and presumably quite early.  If I cut the spades off, they have not been fitted very well, I can remove the strain relief to use elsewhere, and fit new spades.

The wiring diagram printed on a metal plate is still attaches to the base by two of the original metal rivets, and a couple of small blobs of something like Blu-Tak.  The 'phone works, and the sound quality is good.

The two odd things are the handset and the dial.Somebody pointed out that the handset is a WE one, and looks like a standard F-1, but the text moulded into it is surprising; it says:

HANDSET FOR TP-6-A
<Some numbers which I can't make out>
WESTERN ELECTRIC CO

So it seems like this is a correct handset after all.  However, looking at the Oldphoneworks site, they have a Connecticut handset which they say is suitable for the TP-6-A, and they also have one of these 'phones listed, though 'Out of stock', which is described as having a Northern Electric handset.  The handset is very dull looking, but should polish up.  It looks like somebody has been at work with either an abrasive, or some sort of chemical.

The handset is fitted with a later ribbed type F-1 transmitter, with 'TP-6-A' hand written in ink on the outer contact ring.  The receiver element has been replaced by a modern plastic one with screw terminals, held in place with some cotton wool.  The wires from this disappear under some electrical tape, so I'm not sure if the original contacts are still there, just bent down, or if they have been removed.  If they're gone I can take some from the tatty WE handset which used to be on my SC 1243.  I can also use the HA-1 receiver out of that.

The dial is a bit strange; it's Automatic Electric, but I'm not sure of the model.  It seems to be a late model, with many parts of plastic, rather like the GPO No. 54a.  Strangely for such a recent dial, the dial plate is enameled metal, not plastic.  The finger wheel is the late type clear plastic screw fixing version, which takes the stick-on labels; there's a small crack on it.  There was a hand cut, partly hand written label  with the words 'The Third Man' (presumably nothing to do with the film), and a rather strange number.  I've managed to remove this without damaging it.  Underneath it is what looks like some sort of mounting spider for a different finger wheel, but it doesn't look like the AE one on the Oldphoneworks site.  I haven't managed to remove it, and the end of the central shaft into which the screw goes is round, not the usual shape.  If I could find some way to fit an old-style black painted metal AE finger wheel to this, then I think it would look quite acceptable, if not truly authentic.  The TP-6-A on the Oldphoneworks site is fitted with a WE dial, but I don't know which model.  However, in the related products they show an AE 24A36 dial.  I'll have to give this some thought.  Any ideas?

I still think it's a bargain for the price which I paid for it, and it got through Customs without me having to pay tax, even though the total, including postage, should have put it over the limit.  Some very bad pictures taken with a mobile 'phone and no lighting or flash:

[rdelius]

It is possible to replace the main hub (shaft)on the dial with an older one that will mount an old matal fingerwheel.Hiltz woulh have the part
robby

[GG]

Something *very* interesting about that dial: the number plate almost certainly was not made by AE.  Look closely at the shape of each numeral and compare to various eras of actual AE number plates.  In particular note that the top loop of the digit 3 is slightly larger than the bottom loop in its vertical dimension. 

The number plate you have does not match AE number plates from the 1920s, 30s, 50s, and late 70s (I just checked).  However the dial itself is an early 1980s dial, added to that phone by whoever last reconditioned it.  And I doubt AE was making numberplates with numerals that looked like that in the early 80s.  If anything, I'd say the numberplate looks foreign, e.g. ATEA (Belgian AE) would be a logical source for it (compare to what's on those odd Belgian multi-line desk sets).  I'd say it's a valuable find. 

Those screw-mounted finger wheels are easy to find.  If you replace the entire dial, keep that one around as spares for repairs, you never know when you might need it.  Any AE dial up to 51-A would be "original" for that phone, but the most-original type would have the extra set of off-normal contacts on the back, that open rather than closing (any explanation of why they did that would be interesting to know). 

Re. your handset:  WE made stuff for the US Army Signal Corps under a different numbering scheme than normal, for example they have a wild long number for a 500 set.  That may explain something about your handset there.  I've seen examples of that type of phone with handsets that looked like F1 but were made out of a more modern plastic and were more hollow inside and lighter than an F1. 

Something made me think that the softer plastic F1-ish handsets were made by Connecticut Telephone & Electric in the town of Meriden, state of Connecticut, USA.   They also made their own transmitters & receivers; if I recall correctly the former were plated or at least shiny silvery-colored metal, on the front side.  All interchangeable with F1s of course.  (Anything by Connecticut Tel & Elec is rare today because they were a minor manufacturer.  Their standard wall set of that era looks like North Electric's, with the receiver hanging up horizontally across the top like a GPO 741, but more square-ish or angular compared to the North Electric version, and with a bakelite baseplate. 

(What did Buzby make phones out of?  Beakalite!:-)

[Stephen Furley]

Something *very* interesting about that dial: the number plate almost certainly was not made by AE.  Look closely at the shape of each numeral and compare to various eras of actual AE number plates.  In particular note that the top loop of the digit 3 is slightly larger than the bottom loop in its vertical dimension. 

The number plate you have does not match AE number plates from the 1920s, 30s, 50s, and late 70s (I just checked).  However the dial itself is an early 1980s dial, added to that phone by whoever last reconditioned it.  And I doubt AE was making numberplates with numerals that looked like that in the early 80s.  If anything, I'd say the numberplate looks foreign, e.g. ATEA (Belgian AE) would be a logical source for it (compare to what's on those odd Belgian multi-line desk sets).  I'd say it's a valuable find. 

The dial itself does seem to be a genuine AE one.  The diecast base has their logo cast into it.  It's marked D84820

Those screw-mounted finger wheels are easy to find.  If you replace the entire dial, keep that one around as spares for repairs, you never know when you might need it.  Any AE dial up to 51-A would be "original" for that phone, but the most-original type would have the extra set of off-normal contacts on the back, that open rather than closing (any explanation of why they did that would be interesting to know). 

I've got a spare clear finger wheel of that type, but I really want a black metal one.  The new wheels will fit the old shaft, but the old wheels will just spin on the new shaft.  I'm thinking about whether I could machine up some sort of adapter to make it fit.

There are no marks on the clips which hold the plate in place to suggest that it's been changed, but it certainly doesn't look like the right plate for that dial.  It does look quite approptiate on that 'phone however.

The metal thing under the finger wheel isn't a spider;  it's just the same on my older AE dials.

Re. your handset:  WE made stuff for the US Army Signal Corps under a different numbering scheme than normal, for example they have a wild long number for a 500 set.  That may explain something about your handset there.  I've seen examples of that type of phone with handsets that looked like F1 but were made out of a more modern plastic and were more hollow inside and lighter than an F1. 

Something made me think that the softer plastic F1-ish handsets were made by Connecticut Telephone & Electric in the town of Meriden, state of Connecticut, USA.   They also made their own transmitters & receivers; if I recall correctly the former were plated or at least shiny silvery-colored metal, on the front side.  All interchangeable with F1s of course.  (Anything by Connecticut Tel & Elec is rare today because they were a minor manufacturer.  Their standard wall set of that era looks like North Electric's, with the receiver hanging up horizontally across the top like a GPO 741, but more square-ish or angular compared to the North Electric version, and with a bakelite baseplate. 

(What did Buzby make phones out of?  Beakalite!:-)

[Stephen Furley]

I've found a plate which looks very similar to mine listed as being a 'Military' one; maybe AE didn't use many of these, so they still had stocks of the old enamel ones available when they were making the new dials with many plastic parts.

I tried putting on a black metal fingerwheel from one of my other 'phones to see how it looked, and I think it looks right, even though it's not authentic.  However, it just spins on the round shaft.  I think I can see a way to mount a metal wheel on this dial.  My first idea was to machine up an adapter with two flats cut on the end of it, like the shafts on the older dials, but that would raise the wheel by at least a couple of mm, and the sort of semi-recessed dial is very characteristic of these 'phones, so I don't want to lose it.  The plastic wheel now fitted drives the dial by means of four small pegs on the underside of it, two of which locate in each of the curved cut-outs in the metal part underneath, near the  2 and 8 digits.  I have a tatty brass fingerwheel, if I remove the remaining paint, there's not much left anyway, I could make up, and solder to the underside of it four small brass pegs, like the ones on the plastic wheel.  Quick re-spray with black paint, and a new card and holder, and it should look good.  Not authentic, but I like the plate in the dial now fitted; it just looks wrong with the clear fingerwheel.

[GG]

(While I was writing this, Stephen posted above: and it looks like we're all somewhat convergent on this topic.  However soldering to the brass fingerwheel would be very difficult and the position of the "pegs" couldn't be altered if you got it wrong, thus my suggestion of drilling small holes in the hidden portion of the fingerwheel and mounting the adaptors with screws, per below.)

Yes, the dial is genuine AE, no question about that.  All I was trying to say was that the shapes of the numerals on the numberplate didn't match up to any previous examples I'd seen, so the numberplate itself is an interesting mystery.  (Stephen's suggestion of NOS "military" numberplates is interesting, might be correct: those digits look like an older font than the ones from the early 80s when that dial was made.)

I know AE dials well and can disassemble and reassemble them with my eyes closed (that would be an interesting contest to run at a phone show some day: who can do it fastest?:-).   Yes the early 80s variant with the raised round portion in the center instead of the usual round portion with cut-off sides, are a pain in the rear to retrofit with old parts.  Yes that's not a spider, it's the fingerwheel mounting base with ratchet and spring assembly.  Under which should be one or two very thin washers and the pawl silencer.

How to get a metal fingerwheel on there:

What's needed is to mount two sets of washers on the backside of the metal fingerwheel, such that they engage the semi-circular indentations in the fingerwheel-mounting base.  Those indentations are located at the positions that line up with the numberplate retaining clips when the dial is at rest: one faces between digits 1 and 2, the other faces directly toward digit 8. 

Washers that fit most snugly into those semi-circular indentations, will also be too large diameter to clear the space inside the dial particularly where the numberplate retaining clips are located, so the outside of each washer will have to be filed down accordingly, leaving the washer looking a bit lopsided but that's OK.  (Or you can make custom shapes for this out of modelmaker's plastic, though it won't be as robust as metal washers.)

Getting the washers mounted on exactly the right place on the back of the dial fingerwheel is challenging and will take lots of measuring and fiddling.  One way to do it is to use screws substantially smaller than the holes in the washers, so the position of the washers can be adjusted.

The other challenge is to use the existing fingerwheel screw to hold the metal fingerwheel in place.  For this you'll need another nest of washers and spacers on the front.  Don't over-tighten that screw: the part it mates with is less robust than on earlier versions of this dial and will strip easily.

I can visualize the whole process and describe it in words but that would take another page.  This is another case where posting pictures would be useful but I don't have time right now to do a test run of one of these and photograph the process (this weekend I have a metric poop-ton of work to do: five figures' worth of invoices, one compilation of info for IP connections on a PBX that's changing carriers, and one proposal for re-engineering someone else's voicemail system). 

Best of all might be if whoever is making those replacement GPO/BT dial fingerwheels, would start to do likewise for AE fingerwheels.  Even if they used a variation on the GPO design for the number retainer disc, which wouldn't be correct for AE but at least would be functional.

Given the large number of these pesky early-80s AE dials in circulation, if we can come up with a general solution that can be manufactured easily & inexpensively, it could be offered as a kit of parts for anyone who wants to do this for their dials.  So I think this is a worthwhile topic for brainstorming and designing. 

[rdelius]

That might be a Kellogg plate.They are thicker than an AE and might be rusty on the back side.
Robby

[Stephen Furley]

(While I was writing this, Stephen posted above: and it looks like we're all somewhat convergent on this topic.  However soldering to the brass fingerwheel would be very difficult and the position of the "pegs" couldn't be altered if you got it wrong, thus my suggestion of drilling small holes in the hidden portion of the fingerwheel and mounting the adaptors with screws, per below.)

Soldering to the wheel should be easy, as long as one of the stiffening ribs pressed into the metal isn't in just the wrong place.  tin the end of the peg and the surface of the wheel, place peg in correct position, there are several ways to transfer the position accurately from the plastic wheel, heat with very small gas torch until the solder melts.  cover with wet tissue while soldering the next one to prevent the solder melting again.  Repeat again for the other two.  If one is not right it can easily me moved, and no permanent change, e.g. holes, has to be made to the wheel.

Yes, the dial is genuine AE, no question about that.  All I was trying to say was that the shapes of the numerals on the numberplate didn't match up to any previous examples I'd seen, so the numberplate itself is an interesting mystery.  (Stephen's suggestion of NOS "military" numberplates is interesting, might be correct: those digits look like an older font than the ones from the early 80s when that dial was made.)

It's certainly an unusual-looking plate for a fairly recent dial.  The dial looks like it's either new, or has seen very little use, and the speed is spot on.  Interestingly, it makes slightly more noise than one of my older ones.

I know AE dials well and can disassemble and reassemble them with my eyes closed (that would be an interesting contest to run at a phone show some day: who can do it fastest?:-).   Yes the early 80s variant with the raised round portion in the center instead of the usual round portion with cut-off sides, are a pain in the rear to retrofit with old parts.  Yes that's not a spider, it's the fingerwheel mounting base with ratchet and spring assembly.  Under which should be one or two very thin washers and the pawl silencer.

What's the function of the metal tab which points towards the number 5?

How to get a metal fingerwheel on there:

What's needed is to mount two sets of washers on the backside of the metal fingerwheel, such that they engage the semi-circular indentations in the fingerwheel-mounting base.  Those indentations are located at the positions that line up with the numberplate retaining clips when the dial is at rest: one faces between digits 1 and 2, the other faces directly toward digit 8.  

Washers that fit most snugly into those semi-circular indentations, will also be too large diameter to clear the space inside the dial particularly where the numberplate retaining clips are located, so the outside of each washer will have to be filed down accordingly, leaving the washer looking a bit lopsided but that's OK.  (Or you can make custom shapes for this out of modelmaker's plastic, though it won't be as robust as metal washers.)

Getting the washers mounted on exactly the right place on the back of the dial fingerwheel is challenging and will take lots of measuring and fiddling.  One way to do it is to use screws substantially smaller than the holes in the washers, so the position of the washers can be adjusted.

The other challenge is to use the existing fingerwheel screw to hold the metal fingerwheel in place.  For this you'll need another nest of washers and spacers on the front.  Don't over-tighten that screw: the part it mates with is less robust than on earlier versions of this dial and will strip easily.

I can visualize the whole process and describe it in words but that would take another page.  This is another case where posting pictures would be useful but I don't have time right now to do a test run of one of these and photograph the process (this weekend I have a metric poop-ton of work to do: five figures' worth of invoices, one compilation of info for IP connections on a PBX that's changing carriers, and one proposal for re-engineering someone else's voicemail system).  

Best of all might be if whoever is making those replacement GPO/BT dial fingerwheels, would start to do likewise for AE fingerwheels.  Even if they used a variation on the GPO design for the number retainer disc, which wouldn't be correct for AE but at least would be functional.

Given the large number of these pesky early-80s AE dials in circulation, if we can come up with a general solution that can be manufactured easily & inexpensively, it could be offered as a kit of parts for anyone who wants to do this for their dials.  So I think this is a worthwhile topic for brainstorming and designing.  

I've tried putting on a metal wheel from ine of my other 'phones, just to see how it looks with that plate.  This is only held in place by friction, so it does tend to slip if turned, but it does show how it I think it looks good.

[GG]

Yeah, looks better with the metal fingerwheel.  And black would look better than chrome or brass on that model, since it was military and the military aren't given to having frills on their phones. 

The little tab that points toward the number 5, is one end of the "pawl lifter" or "pawl silencer."  This is a little cam on the main shaft, such that when you pull the dial off-normal, it gets in the way of the pawl so it doesn't click-clack around the ratchet on the main drive-gear on the dial. 

Early AE 3" dials, type 34, did not have that component, so they made the click-clack sound as they were wound up.  Then type 34-A-3 had a clever arrangement with a piano-spring wire over the end of the pawl, which quieted the click-clack sound somewhat.  Then the subsequent model introduced the pawl lifter in the 1950s.   

In the nomenclature I'm familiar with, the first AE dials with the pawl lifter were type 51-A in the 3" version, and type 52 for the extended number plate version.  However one of the local high experts may know if the pawl lifter came in before AE changed the type number to 51-A. 

Anyway, those TP-6-A sets were made in the 1950s, when the dial with the pawl lifter became standard.  So to keep it as correct as possible, you should leave the pawl-lifter on the dial. 

NOTE: the order in which the various thin washers and pawl lifter and such are assembled onto the main shaft is critical, so if you disassemble the dial completely and take any of those off, make explicit notes so you can get them back in the right order.

OTOH, since the dial is apparently working perfectly, there's no need to disassemble it. 

If I was doing this, though, I'd use screws rather than solder to mount the thingies on the back of the fingerwheel, and I'd do it in a manner that the location of the thingies could be adjusted to get the spacing exactly correct. 

If you were able to find out who had the replacement GPO fingerwheels made, it would be interesting to see about the cost of making replacement AE fingerwheels that could be used to replace the single-screw ones.   Heck I'd buy a couple dozen of those just to have a stock on hand. 

[Stephen Furley]

I don't know who had them made, nor who actually made them.  Telephone Lines http://www.telephonelines.net/ sell them.  They are closing their shop in Cheltenham just about now; the last of their stock was being packed up ready to move out when I was there last week.  The owner will still be in business, but there will be no shop; he's based somewhere in Devon.  You could try asking them.

They are described as having been made with the original tooling.  Polished metal ones were used on a few very eary prototype 706 type 'phones, and early production ones had painted metal, but these were soon replaced by coloured plastic, and then eventually clear plastic.  The 746, introduced in about 1966, always had clear plastic.  Metal ones continued to be used on payphones, but even this use would have ended in the '80s.  Some of the 300 series tooling was sent to India where ITI used it to make similar telephones for some years after production ended here; maybe the tooling for the finger wheels turned up over there.

Whether the AE tooling still exists is anybody's guess.  The tooling for various parts for Speed Graphic cameras turned up a few years ago, but was too bady rusted to be usable, so even if the AE tooling still sxists it may not be in a usable state.  If it doesn't exist then the cost of making it would probably be prohibitive for the number of parts which could be sold;  I think you'd have to be looking at a minimum of at least thousands.  I have no idea where you'd start looking for surviving AE tooling; what eventually happened to the company?

[GG]

The last of AE got sold out to a company in Florida with the odd name of Palco Telecom; I picked up an NOS type 85-A (90 with press/turn button) in dark green from them when they were on their way out. 

But as for the tooling, that's anyone's guess.  Then there was AE Canada (80-series), and Philips Electric Canada (40-series), and there's another guess for anyone. 

The stripping of America's industrial assets, and the UK's for that matter, is a whole 'nother topic that could probably be started in "off-topic" discussions.  But it would need to be rated R for some of the language some of us would use about that, so I'll leave it there for now.