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Timeline: WE500 feet Quest

Started by Slal, November 14, 2014, 07:22:34 PM

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Slal

Hi Everyone,

Considering buying phone in attachment but always wise to get some advice.

Read two conflicting accounts on triangular feet.

One says (neoprene? feet) in 1959 while another 'how to buy' site says 1958.

Looked here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg132909#msg132909


But if info there, overlooked it.

1.) 'Rubber' feet in September 1958 legit?

2.) Assume laundry marker *can* be removed but have learned the hard way.  With phones never assume anything!

3.) Finally, does anyone know if 'entrepreneurs' make reproduction parts spoofing soft plastic caps, dial faces, housings, etc.?

thx

--Bruce

PS:  If anyone reads what's written on back.  No... That's what seller paid 7 bucks for it.  I should be so lucky. ; )

unbeldi

#1
The triangular feet replaced the leather feet starting in approximately August 1958.
They are indeed made of Neoprene which is often classified as a synthetic rubber.

With the abundance of old 500 sets, I am not sure anyone would gain financially reproducing parts.
If it weren't for the distinct smell of Tenite Butyrate, most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference from ABS.  The smell you can only get from aging a few decades, although there were some varieties that apparently didn't produce it as much. It may have had something to do with the coloring agents or other additives.

That phone looks like a nice candidate for acquisition.  The looks and condition of the underside is only one consideration.  What does it look like from the top?  And what do the handset caps look like?

jsowers

I agree on the August, 1958 changeover to Neoprene feet and I saw a bill insert for sale from August, 1958 that said the feet were changing. I didn't win the auction, unfortunately. I wish I had saved the auction pictures. August, 1958 is when I was born, so I have no trouble remembering that month. I still look for phones from that month. Some of my 8-58 phones have neoprene feet and some have leather feet. I think I have a 9-58 with leather feet too, so there could have still been some old feet "at the bottom of the barrel" so to speak.

Bruce, that's a very nice example of a 9-58 phone from the bottom. No rust at the Neoprene feet, which is very good. They were prone to rust around the feet, probably if left in a damp area.

And yes, there is not much of a market for repro Tenite replacement parts and probably no way anyone could easily make something that would match and be affordable.

Laundry marker--I don't know. Maybe with bleaching, maybe not. If you have any old DuPont rubbing or polishing compound sitting around, you can try that. It has a solvent that will remove lots of gunk from Tenite and it doesn't harm the plastic. But sometimes marker soaks in, which is bad news.
Jonathan

Slal

Quote from: unbeldi on November 14, 2014, 07:48:25 PM
That phone looks like a nice candidate for acquisition.  The looks and condition of the underside is only one consideration.  What does it look like from the top?  And what do the handset caps look like?

Thanks for replies.

One 'how to buy' site warns that just because receiver cap has 6 holes in it cap doesn't make it 'soft' plastic.  Have seen repro. 'repair' kits in various colors but they have 7 holes in receiver cap & dial face looks to be for 9C dials or later.   

Hopefully laundry marker can be removed.  Thanks for tips on how to do that. 

Anyway here's topside view.

Is color faded?  The one on eBay that sold for $20 'bin' looks to be bright primary yellow. 

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12215.0;attach=109324;image

The one in attachment looks to be a more pastel color.


thx

--Bruce


unbeldi

#4
When Western Electric changed from Tenite plastics to ABS plastics during 1959, they also changed the injection molds it appears.

By my interpretation, for the handset caps, the injection nozzle was apparently located in the center of the caps to achieve symmetrical flow of the viscous liquid of plastic. I think this was changed to permit a center hole for both caps.

We know that the 1959 conversion to ABS was not sudden or uniform. Some parts were still made with Tenite, some with ABS, and there is no way to tell upfront, from pictures, which you might be getting when you buy a 1959 phone.

Along the lines of my description, it is really wrong to describe the status by "having six holes".  Clearly the transmitter caps have a lot more holes than six.  The correct way to state this is to say early sets did not have center holes in the caps, while after 1959 they do.

The "buying guides" that I have seen on eBay or elsewhere are really bad and often state just wrong "information". Often it is stuff copied from other source without verifying against the facts. The information you get from members on this forum are far more reliable, because it is based on real experience.

The color on the 500 sets really does not fade easily.  They are extremely color fast.  What is observed, however, is discoloration. This results from the flame retardants added during plastic formulation coupled with time, light exposure, and temperature. Such discoloration typically resides only in very thin surface layers, and can be removed by sanding or chemical bleaching.

However, I do seem to see some fading on the handset cord on that set. It seems almost white in places, but this could be a lighting problem.  The vinyl cords of the 50s, especially for the light colors, do seem to be vulnerable to that.  The color differences you mentioned are typically lighting issues.

The only sets on which I have really observed fading are the Old Rose colored plastic 302s, they are so translucent to light that the light can damage pigments deep in the plastic bulk.

I don't think it really matters whether on gets ABS or Tenite handset caps with a 1959 phone, when they are lacking the center hole. I would bet that 99% of collectors wouldn't be able to tell the difference in materials anyhow on small pieces like handset caps. I have had some where I really did not know either. I would have to perform a chemical analysis, or take an IR spectrum.

To me, this appears as a very desirable phone.

Slal

Hadn't thought much about 'center hole.'  Just assumed it was added to improve transmitter performance.  Interesting about injection molding. Infer 1959 a kind of 'transition' year for both feet and plastics then.

Also reassuring about color.  Hoping it's more a pastel color than the bright yellow that seemed to be case with eBay phone.  Did like that fat gray HS cord though.  ; )   

Anyway, done deal.  Seller claims went out Saturday so will have to wait and see.  If don't like it, can always send it back.

Will update when it gets here I guess.

Thank you both for replies.

--Bruce

unbeldi

Quote from: Slal on November 16, 2014, 04:51:28 PM
Hadn't thought much about 'center hole.'  Just assumed it was added to improve transmitter performance.
That's probably a very good point. Perhaps more so for the receiver than the transmitter.

Quote
Interesting about injection molding. Infer 1959 a kind of 'transition' year for both feet and plastics then.
Not for feet, by 1959 all feet were already Neoprene.

Quote
Also reassuring about color.  Hoping it's more a pastel color than the bright yellow that seemed to be case with eBay phone.  Did like that fat gray HS cord though.  ; )   
I think you will find it more in the middle between them.


Slal

Got here & both of you were were right.  Had hoped it would be a sort of 'desert sand' yellow, but much closer to one in the eBay photo. 

Some colors don't seem to photograph well with my little JVC point & shoot camera, so took Umbeldi's  suggestion & shot with Kodak gray card.

Haven't cleaned yet.  Hopefully what looks like a tea stain or a burn mark between 5 & 6 on dial face can be removed.

HS cord also dirty but not as faded as looked in seller's photos.

Photo 2 shows most of the dates.  Inside HS painted 9-58  but interestingly caps are raised plastic, "8P58."

I assume that's August 1958? 

Anyway, thank you both for replies. 

--Bruce

jsowers

Yes, 8P58 means August, 1958. You are right about your camera not doing too well, but it could also be the lighting.

Have you tried outdoor light? That's what I normally use and it comes out OK most of the time. This time of year isn't great for outdoor photography, but if you can get some indirect sunlight, it works very well.

What are the dates on the transmitter and receiver capsules? I'm curious.  :)  This phone looks like it was assembled in early September, 1958 with parts from both months.
Jonathan

Slal

Quote from: jsowers on November 18, 2014, 05:23:57 PM
You are right about your camera not doing too well, but it could also be the lighting.

Heh.  I finally broke down and bought a digital SLR off Amazon last night.  Hopefully its sensor will be able to pick up subtle differences in color and lighting as you suggested.  Six people on about as many forums have been politely suggesting I retire my little pocket camera for some time now.  ; )

Quote
What are the dates on the transmitter and receiver capsules? I'm curious.  :)  This phone looks like it was assembled in early September, 1958 with parts from both months.

HS= 9-58
Rcvr = 9-9-58
Xmtr = 9-9-58

Only fly in ointment is that round 'beauty mark' on dial face might be deep stain in plastic or cigarette ash burn.  Light scrubbing & sand = no luck.  Still happy to have a yellow one though.

--Bruce