I received a nice WE 500 in the mail today. I was expecting it to be four prong based on the picture, but I guess the seller didn't include a picture of the end of a cord for a reason.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this phone wired up? I'm thinking either put a four prong plug on it and use a four prong to modular converter to plug it into my PBX, or use a connection block of some sort. Unlike the WE302 I got going two months ago, however, I can't even see any wires inside the cord!! Instead there are strands of what appears to be white fuzzy fiber...
Ideas?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5x-RJ11-6P4C-Telephone-Phone-Line-White-Modular-Surface-Mount-Box/112007938868
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 03:46:30 PM
I received a nice WE 500 in the mail today. I was expecting it to be four prong based on the picture, but I guess the seller didn't include a picture of the end of a cord for a reason.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to get this phone wired up? I'm thinking either put a four prong plug on it and use a four prong to modular converter to plug it into my PBX, or use a connection block of some sort. Unlike the WE302 I got going two months ago, however, I can't even see any wires inside the cord!! Instead there are strands of what appears to be white fuzzy fiber...
Ideas?
This is a long cord, looks like 25'. It has a thicker jacket than a normal cord and an internal string to give it tensile strength because it is expected to get draped across a floor where it might get tugged by someone tripping on it. These long cords also have extra strength strain reliefs for anchoring the jacket of the cord to the telephone set and 42A connecting block or plug.
If you strip the jacket back sufficiently you will find conductors, probably 4 even though only 2 are usually required. You can get insulation piercing spade tips to terminate the leads, a proper tool to apply them, and if you are lucky maybe someone will have a strain relief salvaged from a cut off cord.
If not, it's possible to use a couple of small nylon cable ties by putting one around the jacket and using it to bind a second one in line with the length of the cord to secure the end of the cord to the plug. Best to not cut off the exposed string end but to wrap it over the end of the jacket and bind it under the tie that goes around the jacket so the string takes the force of any tugs on the cord.
Once you have re-terminated the "wall end" of the cord you can attach a plug.
There's no reason to assume that a 4-prong plug will be found on the end of a cord which is not shown. They were an option used on only a very small part of the population of deployed phones. Most are connected to 42A Connecting Blocks and often they are disconnected expediently by someone who does not even have a screwdriver, just a knife or pair of scissors. That's what you have there, probably a knife if the end is rough.
Okay, I'll work on stripping the cable but I want to get anything I need to get ordered ordered right away so it'll be here as soon as possible.
I don't need 5, so I think this will work for me, correct?
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-4625A-24W-625A2-Surface-Terminal/dp/B000K2A37S/
I'm coneFsed if the different tools you are talking about are just one way of doing this or multiple ways.
I can't find "insulation piercing spade tips" for sale online.
I think I will go with the surface mount connection block option (the Amazon link above). I would strip the cable enough to get the wires attached inside the block.
If I go this route, that's all I need to buy - nothing else, right? I can have the line cord going into the mount block, and then I can just plug a modular cord into that.
I think this will work, right?
Also, I will not actually attach the surface mount thing to the wall... it can just sit behind my desk, right? I've never encountered one of those before, let alone one that's not affixed to the wall.
Thanks again!
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 04:42:04 PM
Okay, I'll work on stripping the cable but I want to get anything I need to get ordered ordered right away so it'll be here as soon as possible.
I don't need 5, so I think this will work for me, correct?
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-4625A-24W-625A2-Surface-Terminal/dp/B000K2A37S/
"5"? I don't understand.
If you want to use a modular jack that should be okay but you cannot apply a modular plug directly to that cord. The OD of the conductor insulation is too great to fit into the channels of a crimped modular plug. You will have to find one with screw terminations like MariePR showed recently in the topic related to phasing out of copper cable by Verizon.
QuoteI'm confused if the different tools you are talking about are just one way of doing this or multiple ways.
I can't find "insulation piercing spade tips" for sale online.
It's the proper way to do it that will be reliable. This is tinsel cord and I described the only legit way to terminate it. I believe Digi-Key sells proper lugs and you will find other topics on CRPF discussing both the lugs and the tools. It's a problem which comes up periodically.
QuoteI think I will go with the surface mount connection block option (the Amazon link above). I would strip the cable enough to get the wires attached inside the block.
If I go this route, that's all I need to buy - nothing else, right? I can have the line cord going into the mount block, and then I can just plug a modular cord into that.
I think this will work, right?
Wrong. I told you how to do it. You cannot reliably terminate tinsel conductors in this cord by wrapping them around screws and tightening them. If you put spade tips on it as instructed
then you could terminate it on a modular jack and use a short double ended modular cord to patch it to a wall jack.
QuoteAlso, I will not actually attach the surface mount thing to the wall... it can just sit behind my desk, right? I've never encountered one of those before, let alone one that's not affixed to the wall.
Thanks again!
You're welcome. Yes, people commonly use a jack with a 6" modular double ended cord to connect a spade tipped cord to a modular jack. It's okay if the jack won't be in the way and get stepped on, such as under furniture. But regardless, you need to apply insulation piercing spade tips. They are made in different sizes and must be sized for the diameter of the conductors. If designed for much smaller or larger diameter leads the connection may be unreliable.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 04:42:04 PM
I don't need 5, so I think this will work for me, correct?
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-4625A-24W-625A2-Surface-Terminal/dp/B000K2A37S/
Okay, let's work the math. 5 for $7.43 with free shipping is $1.46 each total.
Now, 1 for $7.36 (almond) with free shipping if your order is over $25 or have Amazon Prime would be $7.36 each minimum.
It's up to you.
(http://www.allelectronics.com/mas_assets/cache/image/2/5/0/3/480x480-9475.Jpg)
http://www.allelectronics.com/item/mt-103/4-pin-surface-mount-modular-wall-jack-ivory/1.html
( Dead link - 3/15/24: company went out of business)
$0.65 each.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 05:42:44 PM
Is this available on Amazon at all?
Sure.
https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-4625A-24W-625A2-Surface-Terminal/dp/B000K2A37S/
The connecting block on Amazon is fine. Alex was talking about terminating the wires inside it without spade tips which will not work. Here is a topic about spades & crimpers:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg188457#msg188457
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 05:54:17 PM
That's what I asked Alex if I could buy and he said no - it was the wrong one. Apparently, there are several types and that is not one that would work.
Amazon does not do a good job at displaying the item. These may be wall mounts where station wire goes directly through the wall into the wall mount modular jack. The one from All-Electronics is hard wired through the wall mount jack with a modular jack on the side. The group of 5 on eBay have a mouse hole and are adapters.. I'll trust Alex and saying the Amazon plugs are wrong.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 05:28:09 PM
John, thanks for the math, I usually buy in bulk so I'm not sure why I wasn't thinking of that in this case. And thank you Alex for the explanation as to why I need the tinsel spade stuff. It helps to know why.
I did a search for the tinsel/spade stuff you are talking about, using the keywords you providing, but nothing is coming up. Since you probably know exactly what you're talking about, would you mind sending me a link to it on Amazon? (I like eBay, especially for telephone stuff, but long story short, I can't buy from eBay directly and it's too much hassle).
I don't look at Amazon and have not had to buy any of these recently. I'm sure I've seen topics here on CRPF covering this topic in detail and that if you use the search function you will find it.
Radio Shack used to sell a tool and spade tips which were good for the tiny 28AWG conductors in modular cordage and also for somewhat bigger leads too. They may be compatible with this cord. The main considerations are whether the sides of the lug are the proper height to wrap over the insulation tightly so the points at the bottom pierce the insulation and penetrate the conductor and whether the points are long enough to reach through the insulation, which depends on its thickness.
IIRC, in the CRPF topic I saw discussed someone discovered a source for the identical tool other than from Radio Shack since getting it from them is no longer a possibility.
I've attached a not very good photo I saved from the R-S website for the 640-3070 spade tip as a typical example
Everything you need to know is in this topic.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg175922#msg175922
Here they are on eBay.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-telephone-gold-lugs-100-pc-self-piecring-for-plastic-wire-OLD-phones/201085653385 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-telephone-gold-lugs-100-pc-self-piecring-for-plastic-wire-OLD-phones/201085653385)
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on August 10, 2017, 04:24:02 PM
These long cords also have extra strength strain reliefs for anchoring the jacket of the cord to the telephone set and 42A connecting block or plug. If you strip the jacket back sufficiently you will find conductors, probably 4 even though only 2 are usually required. You can get insulation piercing spade tips to terminate the leads, a proper tool to apply them, and if you are lucky maybe someone will have a strain relief salvaged from a cut off cord.
If not, it's possible to use a couple of small nylon cable ties by putting one around the jacket and using it to bind a second one in line with the length of the cord to secure the end of the cord to the plug. Best to not cut off the exposed string end but to wrap it over the end of the jacket and bind it under the tie that goes around the jacket so the string takes the force of any tugs on the cord. Once you have re-terminated the "wall end" of the cord you can attach a plug.
Okay, so I found these on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Spade-Crimp-Terminal/dp/B0002KR2V8/
It's a shabby price, but I do get 4 in case I mess up doing whatever I need to do (if that can happen). Is this the right thing? They look very different on Amazon - and are colored for whatever reason.
Basically, I've picked that I need a spade lug. The Wikipedia article for it redirects and is no use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spade_lug
This talks a bit about what it is but not really how it relates to telephone line cords specifically: https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/206%20Spade%20Lug%20Terminals.html
What exactly does this do? It looks kind of like the alligator clips on some phone stuff. Is it supposed to pierce the conducting wires inside the line cord? In most pictures, I'm just seeing a tip - does this get connected to a cable? What is being crimped?
If I went this route, what else do I need besides a spade lug tip? A spade lug cable? Any old connection block or is a specific type required? (I'm going to infer that the spade lug tips pierces tip and ring, the spade lug tip is connected to a spade lug cable, the cable is stripped at the other end and wired into a connection block, and the line cords plugs into that... do I have it?)
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 09:14:23 PM
Okay, so I found these on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Spade-Crimp-Terminal/dp/B0002KR2V8/
It's a shabby price, but I do get 4 in case I mess up doing whatever I need to do (if that can happen). Is this the right thing? They look very different on Amazon - and are colored for whatever reason.
Basically, I've picked that I need a spade lug. The Wikipedia article for it redirects and is no use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spade_lug
The above are all for larger stranded or solid but not for tinsel leads in commercial electrical/electronic equipment. They are not insulation piercing. They require the insulation to be stripped and the terminal crimped to the conductor itself. That is satisfactory because these conductors are strong enough. Tinsel is not because it consists of flat conductors wound in a helix around a non-metallic core, hence it would crush and break off soon if crimped this way. That's why piercing spade tips crimp around the outside of the insulation without removing it and pierce through with tangs that are part of the lug to establish electrical contact.
QuoteThis talks a bit about what it is but not really how it relates to telephone line cords specifically: https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/206%20Spade%20Lug%20Terminals.html
What exactly does this do? It looks kind of like the alligator clips on some phone stuff. Is it supposed to pierce the conducting wires inside the line cord? In most pictures, I'm just seeing a tip - does this get connected to a cable? What is being crimped?
I don't see anything there fundamentally different from the wikipedia article and don't understand the ref. to alligator clips.
QuoteIf I went this route, what else do I need besides a spade lug tip? A spade lug cable? Any old connection block or is a specific type required? (I'm going to infer that the spade lug tips pierces tip and ring, the spade lug tip is connected to a spade lug cable, the cable is stripped at the other end and wired into a connection block, and the line cords plugs into that... do I have it?)
No. "Spade lug cable" is an invention of yours. It does not exist. I explained in my first post that you need to crimp insulation piercing spade tips onto the leads. Since they pierce the insulation and for the reasons I have explained, the insulation does not get stripped. Please re-read it.
Others have already posted a link to a topic which discusses proper piercing spade tips:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Antique-telephone-gold-lugs-100-pc-self-piecring-for-plastic-wire-OLD-phones/201085653385
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg188457#msg188457
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg175922#msg175922
before my previous reply.
You would save yourself time and effort searching uselessly for things which have already been pointed out to you and from reaching erroneous conclusions about what you found by reading
all replies and opening their links before replying to any one of them.
I read every word of every reply and clicked on all of the links (and looked at them too. I ended up pretty much reading the entire thread)
None of those links, however, show how this works in the bigger picture. Okay, I don't strip the cable (don't mind saving work anyways). Well, what does a "spade lug" get connected to? The pictures show it being just a tip. I don't see how that helps me.
A search for "tinsel spade lug" does not bring up anything. I did find this cool doohickey though that if it worked would be awesome (I wouldn't need a connection block). Would I be able to use this: https://www.amazon.com/Spade-Telephone-Cable-Connector-Meters/dp/B00Y20YBW2/
Here's a very similar one as well: https://www.amazon.com/Spade-Telephone-Cable-Connector-Meters/dp/B013FJJRME/
It says "spade lug in the name" and obviously is telephone-related.
By alligator clips I mean clips like these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400669393099
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 09:47:04 PM
I read every word of every reply and clicked on all of the links (and looked at them too. I ended up pretty much reading the entire thread)
None of those links, however, show how this works in the bigger picture. Okay, I don't strip the cable (don't mind saving work anyways). Well, what does a "spade lug" get connected to? The pictures show it being just a tip. I don't see how that helps me.
I thought it was a given that since connecting blocks, 4 pin plugs and the modular jacks you proposed to use have screw terminals and I said that you need to put spade tips on the ends of the leads it was obvious enough not to need to state that the spade tips slip under the screw head. You may need to loosen the screw to get it under the head and certainly will need to tighten it afterwards.
OTOH, I subsequently said: "You cannot reliably terminate tinsel conductors in this cord by wrapping them around screws and tightening them. If you put spade tips on it as instructed then you could terminate it on a modular jack..."
So how can you be asking me what to do with the spade tips? I don't understand how it's possible for you to ask.
QuoteA search for "tinsel spade lug" does not bring up anything. I did find this cool doohickey though that if it worked would be awesome (I wouldn't need a connection block). Would I be able to use this: https://www.amazon.com/Spade-Telephone-Cable-Connector-Meters/dp/B00Y20YBW2/
Here's a very similar one as well: https://www.amazon.com/Spade-Telephone-Cable-Connector-Meters/dp/B013FJJRME/
It says "spade lug in the name" and obviously is telephone-related.
These are called "half modular" cords because they have 2 ends and only one has a modular plug on it.
Normally one would be used instead of your original long green cord, connected into the phone in place of it. I would not think you would want to remove and not use the original green cord in favor of a flat cord of non-matching color.
I don't know how you have in mind to use one of these half-modular cords other than by replacing the green cord. If you are thinking to connect it to the end of the green cord (once equipped with spade tips) how could you join the two except by using some kind of terminal strip with at least 2 terminal screws? I see no benefit to using a half modular cord unless you prefer the simplicity of it over the originality of the green cord, replacing rather than repairing it.
QuoteBy alligator clips I mean clips like these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400669393099
I know what alligator clips are. I don't see any relation between the link you originally posted showing spade tips and alligator clips you mentioned in the accompanying text.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 10, 2017, 09:14:23 PM
Okay, so I found these on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Spade-Crimp-Terminal/dp/B0002KR2V8/
It's a shabby price, but I do get 4 in case I mess up doing whatever I need to do (if that can happen). Is this the right thing? They look very different on Amazon - and are colored for whatever reason.
BTW: The above linked spade lugs are for #8 or 8 gauge wire which is 0.171875" in diameter (about 5/32" without its insulation).
On the other hand, #28 or 28 gauge telephone wire is 0.015625" in diameter (about 1/64").
That's less than 1/10th the diameter of #8 wire. Listen to Alex to get the right stuff. I gave you THE forum link to current best price suppliers of crimpers and self piercing spade lugs. That work's been done, accumulated there, over a period of several years. Why are you trying to re-invent the wheel? There is no other tool or spade lugs out there that will work with telephone wire, cloth or vinyl, period.
Alex, I would of course never even consider replacing the green cord. I'd rather not even use the phone if it meant gutting the original cord.
It seems like I'm just digging myself into a whole here. Obviously, I still don't know what I need. Could someone just show me
on Amazon what the right thing would be to buy? It's the only website I can buy from.
Speaking of tinsel, the WE302 I had a similar, but in hindsight easier, problem with sounds similar to this. The wires were wrapped in tinsel. But I stripped enough of the cable away that I could tape it to the wires inside a decommissioned wall jack and I could plug a modular cable into it. But it sounds like this 500 is not like that, since I'm not stripping anything.
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on August 10, 2017, 09:37:37 PM
That's why piercing spade tips crimp around the outside of the insulation without removing it and pierce through with tangs that are part of the lug to establish electrical contact.
"Spade lug cable" is an invention of yours. It does not exist. I explained in my first post that you need to crimp insulation piercing spade tips onto the leads. Since they pierce the insulation and for the reasons I have explained, the insulation does not get stripped. Please re-read it.
You already told me before not to strip. I know that. So, crimp insulation piercing spade tips are the same as spade lugs, correct? Then what are leads? And how do you terminate a spade tip/lug on a modular jack? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 11, 2017, 06:29:36 AM
It seems like I'm just digging myself into a whole here.
"hole", not "whole"
QuoteObviously, I still don't know what I need. Could someone just show me on Amazon what the right thing would be to buy? It's the only website I can buy from.
Not me. I have no reason to think they're on Amazon and I've already sunk enough time into this. You need to find a way to buy from any of the places they are known to be available.
QuoteSpeaking of tinsel, the WE302 I had a similar, but in hindsight easier, problem with sounds similar to this. The wires were wrapped in tinsel. But I stripped enough of the cable away that I could tape it to the wires inside a decommissioned wall jack and I could plug a modular cable into it.
I watched that thread and was amazed to see you resist every attempt to explain to you how to do it neatly, correctly and reliably, choosing to improvise a crude unreliable mess. For every attempt people made to explain how to do it properly you had a reason why it was "impossible". If you resist everything people tell you and find reasons why the simplest thing is impossible it's impossible to help you and just a waste of peoples' time for them to try.
QuoteBut it sounds like this 500 is not like that, since I'm not stripping anything.
To the contrary. It's fundamentally the same problem which needs the same solution. The only difference was the jacket and insulation types between the two cords and the diameter of the wire leads you needed to have put the insulation piercing spade tips on. So you should have used insulation piercing spade tips on the 302.
QuoteYou already told me before not to strip. I know that. So, crimp insulation piercing spade tips are the same as spade lugs, correct?
In most languages there are multiple words which basically mean the same thing but certain words or "terms" are used in one industry while slightly different words which mean the same thing are used in another industry. A "spade tip" and a "spade lug" are basically the same. An "insulation piercing spade tip" is a specific type of spade tip or spade lug. There are spade tips which solder onto the end of the lead, which are not suitable for tinsel wire. That's why "crimp insulation piercing spade tips" ("crimp" is first an adjective) are crimped ("crimp" is second a verb here) onto the wire lead ends.
QuoteThen what are leads?
A "lead", pronounced "leed" or "lede", not "led" like the metal, is a connecting wire in an electrical circuit.
QuoteAnd how do you terminate a spade tip/lug on a modular jack? That doesn't make any sense to me.
"crimp" in the phrase "crimp lug" is and adjective. "Lug" is a noun. "crimp lugs" are attached to the end of a wire by "crimping", in which context "crimp" is a verb.
As stated previously, after the spade tip is crimped onto the end of the lead or wire or wire lead or lead wire, the forked end of the spade tip is inserted under the head of a screw terminal after first loosening the screw sufficiently by turning it counterclockwise (to the left) with a screwdriver to provide enough space under the head for the forked end of the lug to slip under. The screw is then tightened by turning it clockwise (to the right) with a screwdriver.
Have you never opened any of your phones and seen the spade tips on the ends of
every internal connecting lead attached under the heads of the terminal screws? How can this need to be explained? I'm baffled.
If these are the screw terminals on a modular wall jack like others pointed out, you will now be able to "patch" (interconnect) the jack to the wall jack feeding dial tone from the central office using a modular cord with a plug on each end.
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on August 11, 2017, 07:09:32 AM
"hole", not "whole"
Have you never opened any of your phones and seen the spade tips on the ends of every internal connecting lead attached under the heads of the terminal screws? How can this need to be explained? I'm baffled.
See what I mean??
I've only opened up one of my phones to service (well, I did open the 302 up as well, so two of them) but that was because the modular jack in the back was stuck inside the phone and I had to get it out. And then after plugging a line cord into and an unplugging it, it just broke, so I now have about 15 twistie ties binding the line cord to the jack. It's an ITT, so that's probably what it was flimsy.
I have seen those screws but that's not what I've been picturing in these threads. I saw those inside the 302. They are just slipped under the screw, not actually puncturing any insulated wire so I'm not sure if that's the same thing.
All of my other phones were plug and play out of the box so I've never bothered to open them up. I tried once but the screws were so tight and I didn't really need to open them anyways so I haven't bothered since.
Ok, so one end of the spade tip is basically going to crimp my green cord at the end, and the other is going to be connected to a screw terminal?
Is this the type of screw terminal you're talking about? https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Pinch-Mount-Terminal-Connector/dp/B01MT4LC0F/
Or maybe something like this? https://www.amazon.com/Black-Wallmount-Screw-Down-Terminal-6-Wire/dp/B00F4RIQNM/
Am I going to need one of these or can I do without it? https://www.amazon.com/Pc-Accessories-Terminals-Crimping-D-Sub/dp/B007R2JLJK/
Is this what you were talking about when you said I might be lucky enough to find one with the plug on it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/112356731931
Okay, so if I get these, these WILL work? (They are the correct type of spade lug)? http://www.ebay.com/itm/201085653385
I looked on eBay to find lower quantities, maybe 5 or 10, but I can't find any others. Don't know what I would do with all of them. But I guess I have no other choice.
Thanks again.
Those are the correct spades. You will need the crimper to attach the spades to the wire. You do not need any terminals, they are inside the connecting block. Crimp spades to your line cord wires, open up the connecting block and attach the wires with the spades on them to the screws, you only need 2 wires, red & green.
Okay, I will get one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Pc-Accessories-Terminals-Crimping-D-Sub/dp/B007R2JLJK/
Instead of this: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Wallmount-Screw-Down-Terminal-6-Wire/dp/B00F4RIQNM/
Can I get this? https://www.amazon.com/Female-Mount-Modular-Phone-10pack/dp/B00ICUMF5S/
It ships faster and includes 10 of them for the same cost. If I get this, I may end up redoing my 302's wiring with this as I'm using a makeshift connection block right now made out of cardboard and Styrofoam.
I'll get these If I have to: Spade lug: http://www.ebay.com/itm/201085653385
but...
Can I use this or does it not have the right spade lugs on the end? http://www.ebay.com/itm/112356731931
The connectors look similar to the spade lugs (100pc) but I can't tell. Only tip and ring are in the cable. I don't know if this can only be used as a replacement for the entire cord, or if I could somehow just crimp this onto the tip of the existing line cord and then avoid buying a connection block altogether.
I'll put in the order soon and want to make sure I don't leave anything out (and that I'm buying the right stuff).
Thanks again.
Pictures shown in order of links
I hope you realize all of the links you provided in you replies will be dead in less than a few months making this discussion even more confusing and totally meaningless to anyone who reads it in a year from now. External links to Amazon and eBay loose their URL when the item is sold so no one, if they wanted to, would be able to "see" what you are talking about.
This is not an IM or social media forum. External links must be accompanied with images taken from those links (screen captures are fine) to provide future support and current context to the conversation. Making a member follow your multiple links and keep them straight in their head will trying to comprehend the hole discussion is quite rude.
Please post images.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17394.0;attach=166417;image)
The crimpers & spades are fine. You will still need the connecting block. You do'nt need the line cord as it will still require a connecting block. I cannot tell if the ones you posted are correct as they do not show the insides.
How can I discern the connecting blocks that would work in this situation from those that would not? Are they named a certain way or are there different components inside?
Also, links in my opinion are just as useful, if not more useful, as pictures. The link showed information about the product itself and had multiple pictures. Pictures are find, but links are not necessarily useless.
BS......links go away...pictures stay. John was trying to help you....Kidphone
Quote from: bellsystem on August 11, 2017, 12:02:05 PM
How can I discern the connecting blocks that would work in this situation from those that would not? Are they named a certain way or are there different components inside?
Also, links in my opinion are just as useful, if not more useful, as pictures. The link showed information about the product itself and had multiple pictures. Pictures are find, but links are not necessarily useless.
The ones we pointed out on eBay and Alltel are what you need. The one on Amazon is over $12.00! Way too much. It looks like it may be the correct one but we cannot see the inside to verify. The ones on eBay are less money and you will have spares for future projects. The problem with links is they eventually go away. Someone years from now may be looking for the same product but when the click the links they will get a 404 error. At least with a picture they can see what they need.
Thanks, Doug and Harry. Just thinking of the forum long term. This is a very good example of what happens when a member has resorted to exteranal links to images or sites:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=6952.0
As for the connecting blocks, there are two types, maybe more. One type requires the in the wall wiring to come out of a hole in the wall into the back of the block and attached to screw terminals inside the block, which is then screwed to the wall and the cover attached - a permanent wall mount.
The other type is the adapter block which has, like the one above, a modular jack on one side but it also has a mouse hole opening on the back for a line cord to enter and be attached to screw terminals inside the block.
The first is a line cord to station wire application. A permanent wall mount where a box, plate and modular jack in the wall are not available.
The second is an adapter which converts the line cord to a modular jack which can them be connected with a 1 foot or 50 foot modular cord (modular jacks on both ends) to a modular jack already somewhere in the wall, or a 616 station jack.
If a seller does not show the mouse hole, assume it is a permanent wall mount (just like the standard wall jack but without a box and plate). If the seller does show the mouse hole, as in the eBay and All-Electronics links I gave you, then it is an adapter application.
Okay, thanks all. I think I finally get it.
So I need:
- A crimper
- An antique telephone gold lug
- Modular Surface Mount Box with mousehole
And that's it? I can just order those and that will be all I need?
Also are these the same?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/112007938868 (Surface Mount box above)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002N7JD/
It's also hard to see if the Amazon one has a mousehole.
YES! You got it. I would recommend use a scrap piece of wire and try a few crimps first. It is a little tricky to get it right. When I do a crimp I strip back a little bit of insulation and fold the wire over in the spade to be sure I am getting a good connection. That is probably not neccesary, it's just the way I do it! Your mileage may vary.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 11, 2017, 12:43:09 PM
Also are these the same?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/112007938868 (Surface Mount box above)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002N7JD/
It's also hard to see if the Amazon one has a mousehole.
No, a different site selling the same item as on eBay
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002N5GC/?th=1
shows the back of the case does not have a mouse hole. It is for putting a modular jack on a wall without having to cut a large hole for an electrical box, jack insert and cover plate.
While in theory, they both would work, the Amazon box would have the wire sticking out of the bottom, not the back side, unless you wanted to hack a mouse hole into the back side to make it into something that already exists for a lot less money.
The Amazon box is for plugging a phone with a modular line cord into the homes phone wiring.
The mouse hole box is an adapter to convert a round line cord from a phone into a modular connector so a modular cord can be used to connect the adapter to a modular jack already mounted in the wall.
The "I" and "W" letters are for Ivory and White.
Thanks John, I'll just get the eBay one.
I don't have any scrap wire. Is there any other way to test it? Also, Alex said not the strip the cord.
Does a miscrimp render both that section of the cable AND the telephone lug useless or just one or the other? I have a very long cord for the phone and am getting 100 lugs (99 too many). Can you take the lug off if you do it wrong?
Well, I'll get those lugs and the surface mount with mousehole from eBay and the crimper from Amazon. I guess I'll buy a Caller ID unit so I can get free shipping. Hopefully, I don't need anything more. And I use the crimper to crimp to the end of the cable the open side (the tips of the U) or the side that looks like the bottom of a Y? And then the opposite side (the bottom of the Y or the top of it?) goes into the connection box, by the screws?)
Quote from: HarrySmith on August 11, 2017, 01:03:57 PM
YES! You got it. I would recommend use a scrap piece of wire and try a few crimps first. It is a little tricky to get it right. When I do a crimp I strip back a little bit of insulation and fold the wire over in the spade to be sure I am getting a good connection. That is probably not necessary, it's just the way I do it! Your mileage may vary.
Whether stripping the end back works or not or is necessary or not is somewhat dependent on the wire size range of the lug relative to the conductor insulation and conductor diameters. If they are near the max. allowable size, folding the conductor over may make the lead end too large for the sides of the lug to fold over the insulation properly. For example it probably would not work on the thick rubber insulated 302 cord leads and might or might not work or be beneficial with the thinner green 500 set cord.
OTOH if they are large the chances of the piercing tangs missing the conductor if the end is not folded back is also small. However for small gauge wire such as the #28AWG in a modular cord there is a chance the tang will miss the conductor so folding the end over is prudent and the small size also means that folding the end over will not exceed the range of the lug.
For this green cord the conductors are probably much larger than #28AWG and therefore large enough to be unnecessary
Also, which notch in the tool is used and which way the lug is inserted in the tool also makes a huge difference. I usually find that since the notches in the jaw of this tool have parallel sides, it works best if the lug is place in the notch of the jaw so the opening on the top of the lug with the wire in it faces the "blind side" (bottom) of the notch and the compression from the tool is applied to the bottom of lug. I can post a photo showing this.
Practicing on a scrap may not provide useful information if the conductor and insulation diameters of the scrap are much different from that of the cord.
Given that there is 25' of cord, cutting the lug off and stripping the cord back another inch would be of no consequence and it's probably pointless to practice on a scrap.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 11, 2017, 01:26:05 PM
Does a miscrimp render both that section of the cable AND the telephone lug useless or just one or the other? I have a very long cord for the phone and am getting 100 lugs (99 too many). Can you take the lug off if you do it wrong?
As a practical matter lugs cannot be reused.
If a miscrimp occurs you cut the lug off just behind it and try again with a new lug. The only caveat here is that the leads should all be the same length, especially if short for connection to a 4-prong plug, so if you miscrimp the last lug of all the conductors of the cord you are faced with the possibility of cutting off all the previous good crimps so that when you re-do the last one the leads will all be the same length.
With a cord you intend to connect to a modular jack there is plenty of space inside the jack to store excess lead length so you can cut the jacket back a little further before applying the lugs and not worry too much about whether they are all the same length.
As you apply each lug you should check for continuity to the same color lead inside the phone, on the 425 network L1, L2 and G screws to know that the crimp was successful.
You need to use a cable tie or two to anchor the body (jacket) of the cord to the jack or whatever you connect the lugs to so that tension is never applied to the leads and lugs if the cord gets tugged.
Wait, I need more than 1 lug? How many do I need? (2 for T&R?)
Quote from: bellsystem on August 11, 2017, 01:45:19 PM
Wait, I need more than 1 lug? How many do I need? (2 for T&R?)
You need one per lead: 1 for the red and 1 for the green. The yellow and black do not need to be used nor have lugs applied for your purposes.
Here is a link to a spade tip for sale by DigiKey which popped up in a CRPF web page thanks to Google Ads:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/61498-2/A29923CT-ND/294361?WT.mc_id=IQ_7595_G_dyn294361&wt.srch=1&wt.medium=cpc&WT.srch=1&gclid=CPHwt5iH0NUCFRaTfgodX8oAAA
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on August 11, 2017, 04:51:18 PM
Here is a link to a spade tip for sale by DigiKey which popped up in a CRPF web page thanks to Google Ads:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/61498-2/A29923CT-ND/294361?WT.mc_id=IQ_7595_G_dyn294361&wt.srch=1&wt.medium=cpc&WT.srch=1&gclid=CPHwt5iH0NUCFRaTfgodX8oAAA
Everything and anything need to know about or where to buy was provided ion Reply #15 to this topic
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4071.msg175922#msg175922
and is reposted here (click the link and scroll down to see everything you need to know in maybe 6 replies) for anyone who may have not clicked that link to find crimpers (Reply #57) are now shipped from US seller for under $10 with free shipping and both silver and gold spade lugs from DigiKey (Reply #56) including the part numbers and the quantity price break points.
That crimper topic is easily found by using the forum search function for the single word "crimper" and selecting most recent topics first.
Nothing else needs to be said on where and how much the lowest cost for crimpers and self piercing spade lugs can be said without repeating information in that topic.
And, if you want to wait a month, the same crimper can be ordered from China for just over $6 with free shipping. The forum had, already had, the information and it was linked to this topic
26 replies before this one. It's not rocket science guys, it's on the forum and someone actually did the search for you, so why not believe what 99% of forum members knew and ordered and used and enjoyed using the parts and tools in that topic to fix phones. Why does it have to be made so hard, need so many replies, create so much distrust, find so much ignoring of good information provided by members still willing to help? If you want to reinvent the wheel and fabricate a crimper and/or lugs out of stock steel, go for it, but then quit asking for members to repeat that which was already posted apparently ignored. It's not rocket science. It's not even high tech. It's put the point of the nail on a board and hit the head with a hammer stuff.
Quote from: TelePlay on August 11, 2017, 05:09:40 PM
... and both silver and gold spade lugs from DigiKey (Reply #56)
I think it's confusing to refer to these as "silver and gold" without saying that this describes their appearance. Most likely they are silver or gold colored because they are tin plated brass or raw brass. The mfr's data sheet would say for sure.
The tin lugs are cheaper than the brass, that's all that matters to me. A rose by any other name would still be a rose. Same goes for spade lugs.
EDIT: the brass lugs are cheaper than the tin lugs as explained in Reply #47 below
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18650.msg192249#msg192249
Quote from: TelePlay on August 11, 2017, 05:57:18 PM
The tin lugs are cheaper than the brass, that's all that matters to me. A rose by any other name would still be a rose. Same goes for spade lugs.
Then they should be referred to as "tin" and "brass" because it leaves no room for a misunderstanding about precious metal platings. There
are parts, connector contacts as a matter of fact, which actually are silver or gold plated.
Tin is better and probably cheaper to produce than raw brass so it's puzzling that they're cheaper.
Correction: Meant to say:
Tin is better and it's probably cheaper to produce raw brass so it's puzzling that tin are cheaper.
I never said I would fabricate a crimper and/or lugs out of stock steel. I don't know why you're accusing me of doing so John.
I think I'll buy the 100pc. lugs from eBay. The price is decent for the quantity. I'll be set for probably another 20 years, unless every one of my next 48 phones has a cut cord.
Quote from: TelePlay on August 11, 2017, 05:57:18 PM
The tin lugs are cheaper than the brass, that's all that matters to me. A rose by any other name would still be a rose. Same goes for spade lugs.
I said that backwards. The brass spade lugs are cheaper than the tin lugs and here's why. The brass lugs are brass with no coating. The tin lugs are made of brass but tin coated. So, the tin plated brass lugs cost more than the plain brass lugs.
Attached are the work product requested. The -1 part number, the brass spade lug, according to the product data sheet is brass with no coating. The -2 part number, the tine spade lug, according to the product data sheet is a brass spade lug with a tin coating.
Now, having wasted 20 minutes doing the hard work, I really have to ask myself why? Was it really worth answering a question that is too technical to the actual use of the spade lugs (size, self piercing and price per quantity)? Instead of asking the question, look it up for yourself. Links to both spade lugs were given in a reply following the crimper link.
As for the comment "fabricate a crimper and/or lugs out of stock steel," it goes to your constant reluctance to do what is offered and instead come up with your own hypothetical plan to answer your own question by doing something in a way, to do it your way which most of the time means doing it in a way only you could or would be able to produce, to fabricate from base metal and plastic, your answer and when done, to end up with a one off item, whether or not it works.
Now gentlemen, lets all play nice. As said in Cool Hand Luke ...
"What we have here is failure to communicate, some men ya just cant reach..."
That being said:
Bellsystem, Read through some BSPs and get some nice tools (crimpers, screwdrivers, pliers, etc off ebay/amazon) and go for it. Best way to learn anything (except maybe flying a jetliner) is to just go for it and experience it for yourself. These phones as you know are simple but also rather tough and forgiving. All the knowledge is out there if you seek it. Do not be afraid to take the leap on your own.
John/Alex, I think to fully understand and appreciate your combined wisdom and depth of knowledge, our seedling, Bellsystem, needs to grow a bit and face the weather on his own. Once a few mistakes are made and solved by his own hand (assuming he does so on his own), his minds eye may become opened. I consider myself to be very much a noobie to all this at just over a year in and I am regularly humbled by how much individuals like you know, especially given how many tries it took me to get my 500 L/M to actually work right ::) (First phone, first phone project....total clueless idiot at the time...)
Hey, I totally forgot about BSPs! Do you know which BSPs might be relevant to this project?
I have been on this forum since day one. I have NEVER seen the bickering between members reach this low.
We take pride in the fact that this forum is the epitome of co-operation between members.
FRANKLY the exchanges I read lately look like threads from Facebook. Name calling, put downs, and grammar/spelling corrections to criticize someone don't work here.
I think we have all heard the saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything." I think a better way to say it would be. "If you can't say something nice, maybe you are in the wrong Forum." This is not a contest to see who is the superior Telephone collector, the purpose is to make the one with the least knowledge of Telephones, equal in to the person with the most knowledge, through education, NOT RIDICULE , ARGUING, OR PUT DOWNS. PLEASE GIVE EVERY ATTEMPT TO HALT THIS BEHAVIOR. We have evil ways to stop it, if we can't do it individually.
D/P
Quote from: bellsystem on August 12, 2017, 07:56:46 AM
Hey, I totally forgot about BSPs! Do you know which BSPs might be relevant to this project?
You'll find lots using Google. No one needs to tell you. All you need to do is try!
Quote from: Dan/Panther on August 12, 2017, 11:56:28 AM
I have been on this forum since day one. I have NEVER seen the bickering between members reach this low.
We take pride in the fact that this forum is the epitome of co-operation between members.
FRANKLY the exchanges I read lately look like threads from Facebook. Name calling, put downs, and grammar/spelling corrections to criticize someone don't work here.
I think we have all heard the saying, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything." I think a better way to say it would be. "If you can't say something nice, maybe you are in the wrong Forum." This is not a contest to see who is the superior Telephone collector, the purpose is to make the one with the least knowledge of Telephones, equal in to the person with the most knowledge, through education, NOT RIDICULE , ARGUING, OR PUT DOWNS. PLEASE GIVE EVERY ATTEMPT TO HALT THIS BEHAVIOR. We have evil ways to stop it, if we can't do it individually.
D/P
I really think there is a quick and easy fix. The offending members should be suspended or removed from the Forum. Until this year everyone treated everyone right. Were there disagreements....sure. Were they handled professionally...for the most part....yes.
Unless we want to keep writing these posts and having the offending members ignore them, something should be done. Pure and simple....suspend them!
Where are all the oldtimers who used to populate the Forum gone? We have enough strife with life. Let's end this BS.
850 posts in 8 months!!
It's a hobby....it's supposed to be fun...Doug
Quote from: Dan/Panther on August 12, 2017, 11:56:28 AM
I have been on this forum since day one. I have NEVER seen the bickering between members reach this low.
We take pride in the fact that this forum is the epitome of co-operation between members.
No one has infinite patience. This thread went way beyond what it ought to have because of resistance to reading and accepting the instructions given. It would be worthwhile to review the history of the previous posts made by the originator or this topic to see how inflammatory they were before making judgements about the difficulties people experienced trying to help with something which could have been resolved in 6 messages total instead of 50+.
Somebody posted to a topic or sent me a PM saying, among other things, that I am taking and not contributing to this site and that I should accomplish something and "prove" that I can do something besides ask questions.
So, here are 3 spade lugs crimped onto the green cord - or rather the wires inside the cord. Yes, I know the yellow one was unnecessary; I did that for practice. I think I did them right, but I really have no way of testing it until the connection block arrives and would not know if I did it wrong anyhow.
Here's a picture. Hopefully, I haven't done anything wrong by taking one, but no doubt someone will find fault with this.
"I really have no way of testing it until the connection block arrives "
YES YOU DO!!!
It's called a meter.
Weeks ago, I suggested that you acquire a set of simple tools, including a multimeter, if you intend to work on, restore, or install telephones. This habit to ignore advice is what gets us annoyed.
Quote from: bellsystem on August 16, 2017, 05:16:05 PM
Somebody posted to a topic or sent me a PM saying, among other things, that I am taking and not contributing to this site and that I should accomplish something and "prove" that I can do something besides ask questions.
So, here are 3 spade lugs crimped onto the green cord - or rather the wires inside the cord. Yes, I know the yellow one was unnecessary; I did that for practice. I think I did them right, but I really have no way of testing it until the connection block arrives and would not know if I did it wrong anyhow.
Here's a picture. Hopefully, I haven't done anything wrong by taking one, but no doubt someone will find fault with this.
You should trim away all the thread ends with a pair of scissors.
You probably will have to remove more of the jacket for the leads to be long enough to reach the terminals on any kind of terminal block with enough slack so the leads are not taut.
Normally the jacket is stripped before lugs are applied by carefully making a shallow cut into the jacket in a circle at the required distance (1½-2") from the end and then slipping the jacket off using a single edge razor or sharp knife. This produces a clean edge at the end of the jacket and is much easier than chipping it away in pieces as long as you are careful and don't damage the conductors by cutting too far into the jacket.
Even if you do not cut through the jacket fully, it will tear cleanly at the cut line because it is thinner there due to the cut. Strippers for large wire approximately the size of the 3 lead bundle (~#12-10AWG) also usually work well for removing the jacket cleanly and easily. Ideal makes strippers in various size ranges. The one which covers these larger sizes works well for stripping the jacket all sorts of round cords and inside wire.
Thanks for the advice both,
I realize you could probably tell the job was done by me. I'll finalize and clean it up once I get the block.
I didn't mean that it is impossible to test until the block arrives. I just meant that I - as in right now, myself - cannot because I don't have one of those yet. I don't ignore everything, even if it seems that way. I've noted that, and will get one soon. I'm doing things one at a time.
"...with enough slack so the leads are not taught. " (Alex G. Bell)
"You have to be carefully taut." (Rodgers and Hammerstein, "South Pacific")
Quote from: bellsystem on August 16, 2017, 05:16:05 PM
Somebody posted to a topic or sent me a PM saying, among other things, that I am taking and not contributing to this site and that I should accomplish something and "prove" that I can do something besides ask questions.
So, here are 3 spade lugs crimped onto the green cord - or rather the wires inside the cord. Yes, I know the yellow one was unnecessary; I did that for practice. I think I did them right, but I really have no way of testing it until the connection block arrives and would not know if I did it wrong anyhow.
Here's a picture. Hopefully, I haven't done anything wrong by taking one, but no doubt someone will find fault with this.
Those crimps look like they should work just fine. Once all the detritus is cleaned up you should have a proper setup to hook to your connection block up.