2500 keypad wiring

[poplar1]

No, what I am saying is wire the SC *dial* the same way on either network, and the WE dial the same way on either network. Best to write down where they are connected on the old phone, or move one wire at a time from the old phone to the new one. Just saying that it doesn't matter what the blind terminals are called, so long as the 2 (or 3) wires are connected together, whether S, T, E1, E2, or whatever -- even taped together will work.

[poplar1]

You also need to make sure the hookswitch wires and handset wires are moved so that they are in the same place on the 4228 as they were on the S-C network.

Since there is no E2 terminal on the 4228 for the red dial wire, you can use any avaiable blind terminal instead (T, S, or G). There should be another wire (red handset?) that will connect on the same blind terminal as the red dial wire.

[poplar1]

 

Re: 2500 keypad wiring
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 22:22:53 »

Quote
This is the wiring for the metal keypad / ITT 427 type network combination:

Keypad      Wire          Network
Terminal    Color         Terminal
Label                     Label
________________________________________ _________________ 4228 Network:

2           Gray/Brown    Goes to hook switch (and to L2)                           same

1           Gray/White    Goes to hook switch (and to L1)                            same

R           Red           E2----------------------------------------------------------T

W           White         GN                                                                      same

R-G         Red/Green     R                                                                     same

O-BK        Orange/Black  C                                                                   same

S-W         Gray/White    RR                                                                   same

[MaximRecoil]

Success (mostly).

First I moved the WE's hook switch and handset wires to the terminals that matched the SC's setup, and no dial tone. Then I checked the line cord wires, and a couple of those were on different terminals compared to the SC, so I moved those to match the SC. For the keypad wires I followed poplar1's chart that he posted in reply #17.

The SC metal keypad is on the WE base now and I have dial tone, all keys on the keypad work perfectly, and the handset transmits and receives. However, the ringer isn't ringing.

Both phones have a 2-wire ringer:

On the SC, the red wire is on K (it's the only wire on K) and the black wire is on L1 (along with the green wire from the line cord and the slate/green hook switch wire).

On the WE, the red wire is on K (it's the only wire on K) and the black wire is on L1 (along with the green wire from the line cord and the green hook switch wire).

It seems like the ringer should work wired that way, but it doesn't.

[Jim Stettler]

Poplar1 you a font of technical knowledge. You always amaze me with what you know and/or research. I have never mentioned it before but you are a huge tech asset for this forum.
Thanks,
JMO,
Jim S.

[MaximRecoil]

Poplar1 you a font of technical knowledge. You always amaze me with what you know and/or research. I have never mentioned it before but you are a huge tech asset for this forum.
Thanks,
JMO,
Jim S.

I agree, and not only because of his posts on this thread. I've seen him post tons of arcane technical information in lots of threads on this forum.

By the way, I've noticed at least one electrical difference between the WE and the SC networks. On the SC network, terminals B and C are electrically the same terminal (dead short between them), while on the WE network, there is about 46 ohms of resistance between B and C.

On the SC network, the black handset wire is on B and the orange/black wire from the keypad was on C. On the WE network I've tried it that way as well as the reverse of that way, plus I've tried it with both of those wires on C and with both of those wires on B. In all four of those configurations everything works except for the ringer. I'm out of ideas for making the ringer work. I know there's nothing wrong with the ringer itself, because it worked fine before I swapped the keypad.

[poplar1]

Ringer capacitor is A and K. What do you have on A?
If the yellow (or slate/yellow) hookswitch wire is on L2, then you need to do one of the following (for a 2-wire ringer only):
1. Connect the solid slate (gray) hookswitch wire (possibly on L2 now?) to A, OR
2. Run a jumper from L2 to A, OR
3. Move both  the red line cord wire + yellow (slate/yellow) hookswitch wire to A.

(The ringer is in series with the capacitor either way when the phone is on-hook (L1---black ringer---ringer coil---red ringer----K----capacitor-----A-------L2)

Network:
B and C are not the same.
On a WE network, the line ("tip and ring") input is RR (tip) and C (ring).

The output is:
Receiver = GN
Transmitter  = B
Common Rec/xmtr = R

I can't imagine why it would be different on an S-C or ITT network.

[poplar1]

What do you have connected to A?

Is your WE set marked 2500DMG (residential lease set) or CS2500DMG (retail set) or  2500MMG (for 1A2 Key System)? I don't see anything on L2 terminal in the original photo, which means that the red line cord wire and a hookswitch wire were probably on A.

The MMG set repurposes the yellow and brown hookswitch wires (for A-lead control on a key system) so they had to use green and white to open only one side of the line (rather than opening both sides of the line in a DMG set). In the MMG set, the white hookswitch wire  -- rather than brown -- was on the back of the 72-type dial (or on C with the older 35-type dial), and the green (rather than yellow) hookswitch wire was with the red line cord wire.

[MaximRecoil]

Ringer capacitor is A and K. What do you have on A?

With the WE, nothing is currently on A. With the SC, there is a jumper wire from L2 to A, and no other wires are on A. I've already tried adding a jumper wire from L2 to A on the WE, but it didn't make the ringer ring, so I removed it.

If the yellow (or slate/yellow) hookswitch wire is on L2,

It is.

then you need to do one of the following (for a 2-wire ringer only):

1. Connect the solid slate (gray) hookswitch wire (possibly on L2 now?) to A, OR
2. Run a jumper from L2 to A, OR
3. Move both  the red line cord wire + yellow (slate/yellow) hookswitch wire to A.

I've already tried #2; it was the first thing I tried and I expected it to work because, like I said above, the SC network has a jumper from L2 to A, but it didn't work.

As for #1, the WE phone doesn't have a solid gray hook switch wire. The SC has a solid gray hook switch wire and it's connected to L2, but it has 7 hook switch wires and the WE only has 6. The WE doesn't even have the spot for the 7th one that the SC has.

As for #3, if I try that, do I also move the red wire from the keypad to terminal A (it's currently paired with the red handset wire on terminal T)?

(The ringer is in series with the capacitor either way when the phone is on-hook (L1---black ringer---ringer coil---red ringer----K----capacitor-----A-------L2)

Network:
B and C are not the same.
On a WE network, the line ("tip and ring") input is RR (tip) and C (ring).

The output is:
Receiver = GN
Transmitter  = B
Common Rec/xmtr = R

I can't imagine why it would be different on an S-C or ITT network.

I just rechecked; I made a mistake. It was a dead short between B and the terminal directly below it, which is unlabeled. That makes sense because those two terminals are enclosed in a bracket on the PCB's silk screen. Between B and C there is 56 ohms of resistance, which is close to the resistance between B and C on the WE network.

Is your WE set marked 2500DMG (residential lease set) or CS2500DMG (retail set) or  2500MMG (for 1A2 Key System)? I don't see anything on L2 terminal in the original photo, which means that the red line cord wire and a hookswitch wire were probably on A.

The MMG set repurposes the yellow and brown hookswitch wires (for A-lead control on a key system) so they had to use green and white to open only one side of the line (rather than opening both sides of the line in a DMG set). In the MMG set, the white hookswitch wire  -- rather than brown -- was on the back of the 72-type dial (or on C with the older 35-type dial), and the green (rather than yellow) hookswitch wire was with the red line cord wire.

It is an MMG, but it isn't wired like an MMG anymore (the picture I posted in my first post is out of date now), because I moved all the wires to match the SC phone. That made everything work except the ringer.

[poplar1]

It appears that in the original photo, the red line cord wire and the green hookswitch wire are on A. (So the white hookswitch wire must have been on the back of the 72-type dial?)

If you now have the green hookswitch wire and black ringer wire on L1, along with the green line cord wire, then that is OK. You have just changed it to match the residential S-C or residential WE set.

Sorry I didn't see that there were no wires on L2 in the orignal photo of the WE set with 72 dial, or I would have asked for the model number stamped on the bottom.

I guess the idea that I was trying to get across is that in theory the 2 telephone networks are the same, even if they have different names for some of the blind terminals. So it doesn't matter that the dials are different (7 leads rather than 9) or that they have different color wires. You can also go from a 4-wire rotary dial to an  8-wire 35-type WE dial, as WE often did when they converted 500s to 2500s, while reusing the same 425 network.

[poplar1]

With the WE, nothing is currently on A......

As for #3, if I try that, do I also move the red wire from the keypad to terminal A (it's currently paired with the red handset wire on terminal T)?

No. Just the line cord wire and the hookswitch wire on A.

There are 2 separate circuits: ringer and talk. Don't move the keypad red wire from T since it is part of the talk circuit, not the ringer circuit.

If you have nothing on A, but a red ringer wire on K, then the ringer circuit is incomplete.
I don't know why it would not work with a jumper from L2 to A, if you have the red line cord wire on L2 as well as a hookswitch wire.(Black ringer wire on L1)

[MaximRecoil]

No. Just the line cord wire and the hookswitch wire on A.

There are 2 separate circuits: ringer and talk. Don't move the keypad red wire from T since it is part of the talk circuit, not the ringer circuit.

If you have nothing on A, but a red ringer wire on K, then the ringer circuit is incomplete.
I don't know why it would not work with a jumper from L2 to A, if you have the red line cord wire on L2 as well as a hookswitch wire.(Black ringer wire on L1)

Yes, the red line cord wire is on L2, as is the yellow hook switch wire. The black ringer wire is on L1 and the red ringer wire is on K:



In that picture there's no jumper from L2 to A, but like I said, I've tried the jumper (more than once) and it doesn't make the ringer work.

[MaximRecoil]

Since it's hard to follow wiring in pictures, here it is in text form (WE network, SC dial, ringer not ringing). I believe it accounts for every wire:

Network Terminals

K  -  Red ringer wire

R  -  Red/green dial wire

GN -  Black hook switch wire
      White handset wire

L2 -  Red line cord wire
      Yellow hook switch wire
      Jumper wire to terminal "A"

A  -  Jumper wire to terminal "L2"

L1 -  Black ringer wire
      Green line cord wire
      Green hook switch wire

G  -  Yellow line cord wire

F  -  Nothing

T  -  Red dial wire
      Red handset wire

RR -  Slate/white dial wire

B  -  Black handset wire

S  -  Black line cord wire

C  -  Orange/black dial wire

Dial Terminals

2  -  Brown hook switch wire

1  -  White hook switch wire

[poplar1]

Move just the red line cord wire to A for now. See if it will ring. (There won't be a dial tone yet.) (Remove the jumper from L2 to A for now.)

[poplar1]

Are you sure the black wire on S is from the modular line jack, and not from the ringer? (I can't tell in the photo.)