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Learning dial Repair

Started by bobv, January 06, 2019, 04:36:10 PM

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bobv

Learning Dial Repair. I hope this is helpfull

Ktownphoneco

#1
Bob   ...  FYI, the BK Precision 1045 tester really doesn't do much.   They tell you what digit you've just dialed, and that's it.     Some people think that if the digit they dialed shows up in the little display window, that the dial is within the pulses per second parameters and break parameters set down by Western Electric for 2H / 4H and 5H dials,etc., etc..     That's not the case.     The 1045A BK tester will show you exactly what digit you've just dialed regardless of dial speed and / or break period.     If there's any doubt, hook up the dial or the telephone it's in, dial a number such as "9" or "0", and put your finger on the edge of the finger wheel to slow it down so that it's obviously too slow, and do the same test by pushing the finger wheel around with your finger so that it's obvious the dial is spinning too fast, and check the results on the digit display window.    Your probably going to see the digit you dialed, regardless of speed.   There is no way to check break percentage at all.
As far as putting a dial into a ultra-sonic cleaner of some sort, it works great on all of the exposed parts of the dial or whatever is being cleaned, but it doesn't clean those parts which which are still hidden by the fact they are still assembled and not exposed.    Parts need to be visible in order to be cleaned by an ultra-sonic cleaner.    If your using water as a solution in an ultra-sonic cleaner, remember to take the dial totally apart after and dry it out.   Any water that gets trapped in the dial, will only rust the ferrous metal parts that haven't been taken apart and dried out.   

Jeff Lamb


bobv

Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 06, 2019, 06:26:51 PM
Bob   ...  FYI, the BK Precision 1045 tester really doesn't do much.   They tell you what digit you've just dialed, and that's it.     Some people think that if the digit they dialed shows up in the little display window, that the dial is within the pulses per second parameters and break parameters set down by Western Electric for 2H / 4H and 5H dials.     That's not the case.     The 1045A BK tester will show you exactly what digit you've just dialed regardless of dial speed and / or break period.     If there's any doubt, hook up the dial or the telephone it's in, dial a number such as "9" or "0", and pt your finger on the edge of the finger wheel to slow it down so that it's obviously too slow, and do the same test by pushing the finger wheel around with your finger so that it's obvious the dial is spinning too fast, and check the results on the digit display window.    Your probably going to see the digit you dialed, regardless of speed.   There is no way to check break percentage at all.
As far as putting a dial into a ultra-sonic cleaner of some sort, it works great on all of the exposed parts of the dial or whatever is being cleaned, but it doesn't clean those parts which which are still hidden by the fact they are still assembled and not exposed.    Parts need to be visible in order to be cleaned by an ultra-sonic cleaner.    If your using water as a solution in an ultra-sonic cleaner, remember to take the dial totally apart after and dry it out.   Any water that gets trapped in the dial, will only rust the ferrous metal parts that haven't been taken apart and dried out.   

Jeff Lamb


Hi Jeff Lamb,

Thanks for the detailed comments.  Really appreciated.

I will try out the dial as you suggested and post the outcome.  Also, I am waiting on 1050 and will test it out then. I would need your help again :)
As for the ultra-sonic cleaning, I follow the steps you suggested.  I cleaned with mix of dish washer cleaner and water, then clean with water. I blow dry carefully and dry out with warm air also. then I lubricate the dial and test.  if the test fails, I do these steps again. I also try to adjust governor screws to make it work.  Whatever I could do to make it work with what I have :) 

Thanks
VB

dsk

Nice video!

As Jeff tells the tester does accept dials in a wider range than what is within several specifications, but it shows you that it has a reasonable make/breake ratio, and it gives the right digit when you dial.
For most of us it is good enough if we see that the dial returns from 0 in between 1.2 to 1.7 seconds.

After a cleaning the dial should get a tiny bit of oil, it must be 0% silicone!  Thin oil for weapons, clocks etc use to be good.  all bearings and gears need oil, but not clutches and centrifugal speed regulators (including brakes)

I f the phone works well and dials on your system it should be good enough for your use.

For sale, or repair for other people, a full adjustment should be done. You have to know if the other person lives in a country with 1/3 make(33.33%), or 2/5 make (40%). a ratio in the middle of this will always work. The speed will always be accepted if it is 10 pps 

If the tuned dial is within the standards (mentioned) +/- 7% it is "perfect" :-)

dsk

PS
I am very interested to know what solution you used in the washer.
DS

Key2871

Excellent point Jeff. In my many years of working with phone's I wished I could have got a high end tester. Back when I got mine the 1050's were calling for a grand and usually more. I could pull that out to do. But I've worked on enough dials to listen carefully for any parts returning that slow down and or speed up. If that happens then I delved into the dial more.
KEN

Babybearjs

you might also want to put the dial in an oven set to 150F for a few minutes to dry it out also... I've had to do that on some stuff in the past.. hey, it works...
John

TelePlay

     GLOBAL MODERATOR POST

I get a very strong deja vu feeling on this topic. I think everything that needs to be known, has been done and works the best is somewhere within this board

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=25.0

That board has topics on dial cleaning, repair, testing and lubrication from total disassembly to spraying the gears with tuner control cleaner and that includes detailed description on how to ultrasonically clean a dial from protect its ink stamp markings to the solution, time and temperature used to clean the dial. Jeff is right, the main spring shaft will collect water and over time cause problems if not dried out so total disassembly is best. If cleaning ultrasonically, there are hundreds of cleaners to be added to the distilled water to best clean the metals in a dial and not eat away at them and those are discussed in that board. Tuner cleaner works well in certain dial situations and not in others. Finally, the lubricant to be used was discussed in length in the first topic of that board, stuck to the top - the best oils cost money, the worst oils cause headaches.

I guess bottom line is first, this topic is in the wrong place and second, it did not add anything to the volumes of dial repair information already on the forum and available to anyone willing to spend a few minutes searching and reading and then trying.

I have no problem with any member asking for direct help on how to clean a specific dial including images of that dial in that it is the fastest way to get help from members who actually have cleaned dozens, if not more, and calibrated dials over the years. Asking a specific question for help is faster than reading a board and trying to figure out what is the best way since the boards develop over time and as such, the best advice is latter on in each topic, after the mistakes and didn't work attempts were replaced by better techniques.

Posting a vague topic such as this with nothing more than images, with no explanation of what was done and how successful it was, does not contribute to the forum, is not in the educational and instruction spirit of the forum. And with all of the information about dial restoration on the forum, a detailed topic might even include links to good replies within that board to support that successful cleaning or restoration of a dial, such as this one important to the final step of dial restoration, lubrication.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7899.msg124966#msg124966

This reply is not meant to discourage asking questions and the active sharing of good information to answer those questions, be it with direct help or links to existing solutions to the question asked. This reply is to encourage members to ask questions, help in detail when answering the question and provide detailed accounts of work done by a member when starting a new topic or replying in an existing topic dealing with updates or additions to the same work just completed, basically adding to the educational database that this forum has become.

I also fully realize that newer members will have a difficult time using the forum's search engine and because of that, a simple and complete question asked for help is faster in that members who have experience can instantly reply with the answer and/or links to similar work already on the forum.

I would also expect newer members to take time exploring the forum, all of its topics, and become familiar with what already exists here. Yes, the organization of topics is a bit messy but it developed over 10 years so some amount of disarray is expected. However, the forum boards are clearly labeled so it would make it easy for anyone to scan dial restoration posts, for example, under "Telephone Restoration Projects and Techniques"

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=70.0

and then under that, "Dial Repair & Lubrication."

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=25.0

Help for routing problems is a few clicks away, it's not rocket science to discover the volumes of helpful information on the forum. Give al that, it proves the point that this topic is useless to dial restoration unless something was done that was not and should have been included in the topic which would advance the area of dial restoration, images alone do nothing other than have contributing members adding their advice and other members responding to those replies, not the topic itself.

bobv

Quote from: dsk on January 07, 2019, 04:33:02 AM
Nice video!

As Jeff tells the tester does accept dials in a wider range than what is within several specifications, but it shows you that it has a reasonable make/breake ratio, and it gives the right digit when you dial.
For most of us it is good enough if we see that the dial returns from 0 in between 1.2 to 1.7 seconds.

After a cleaning the dial should get a tiny bit of oil, it must be 0% silicone!  Thin oil for weapons, clocks etc use to be good.  all bearings and gears need oil, but not clutches and centrifugal speed regulators (including brakes)

I f the phone works well and dials on your system it should be good enough for your use.

For sale, or repair for other people, a full adjustment should be done. You have to know if the other person lives in a country with 1/3 make(33.33%), or 2/5 make (40%). a ratio in the middle of this will always work. The speed will always be accepted if it is 10 pps 

If the tuned dial is within the standards (mentioned) +/- 7% it is "perfect" :-)

dsk

PS
I am very interested to know what solution you used in the washer.
DS


Hi Dsk,

thanks for the comments and advice.  I will follow this specification you proivded, when I get the 1050 and I could adjust within the range.

I did three dials today.  two worked fine, no problem.  one gave hard time, dial worked fine when tested in 1045.  when i called, it was not recognizing the number using magicjack - message is "you must dial the area code and number".  I trying to understand that message, phone and dial.

i use dishwasher - finish liquid for dry and shiny dishes (jetdry ultra):-)  I use a very small amount (~1 teaspoon)

thanks
VB


bobv

Hi TelePlay

I saw your comments, could you tag this topic to the dial section of the Forum, as you mentioned?


thanks
VB


TelePlay

     Regular Member Post

Quote from: bobv on January 07, 2019, 07:30:14 PM
i use dishwasher - finish liquid for dry and shiny dishes (jetdry ultra):-)  I use a very small amount (~1 teaspoon)

As noted above, good ultrasonic cleaning is based on the cleaner used in the distilled water. There are hundreds of different cleaner solutions available to all areas of industrial use based on the items being cleaned and the material being cleaned off of those items.

The metals of a telephone dial and the age hardened oils with included dirt set the parameters for the cleaner to be used. Searching for existing cleaners suggested for metals most like a dial and crud most like that found on dials shows the suggested cleaner to be used is slightly alkaline, pH slightly greater than 7. The typical description for one such cleaner for dial type metals reads: "multipurpose, mild, phosphate- and caustic-free alkaline cleaner. It is useful in many applications demanding removal of various contaminants such as oils, greases, particulate matter, and carbon residues." You can check out the different solutions suggested for a wide variety of applications at this (and other) sites selling ultrasonic cleaning solutions. The metals of a dial being cleaned are soft and the dirt being removed is oil and grease.

     http://www.crest-ultrasonics.com/ultrasonic-cleaning-solutions/

If you want to read about how to select the right cleaner for the metals being cleaned, this site walks one through the selection process

     https://www.tovatech.com/blog/25879/ultrasonic-cleaner/selecting-ultrasonic-cleaning-solutions

and the discussion of cleaner pH (acidic vs alkaline)states:

"When to Specify an Acidic Ultrasonic Cleaning Solution
Acidic cleaning solutions are exemplified by elma tec clean S1 with a pH of 1.6 in concentrate form.  Recommended dilution is to 1 to 5% with water.

It is used to remove corrosion and lime deposits, water damage, grease, oil and oxide layers from non-ferrous and light metals as well as PCBs, glass, plastics, tarnished brass and copper. 

Stronger acidic solutions are also available for these materials along with nonferrous heavy metals, stainless steel, and cast iron. As noted above, surfaces subject to rusting should include elma KS in the cleaning or rinsing tank for temporary corrosion resistance.

An important caution:  Stainless steel ultrasonic cleaner solution tanks must be protected when using corrosive low pH solutions such as nitric, sulfuric, formic, or hydrofluoric acid.  This is accomplished by using a plastic insert along with other precautions described in our post on safely cleaning with acid.

Applications for Alkaline Cleaning Solutions
A highly popular alkaline cleaning solutions is demulsifying elma tec clean A4 with a pH of 13.4.  It is widely used in labs and workshops.  Diluted from 1% to 5% with water it removes grease, oils, soot, wax, combustion residues, and organic contaminants from engine parts, all metals, glass, ceramics, plastics and rubber.

A slightly milder alkaline formula is emulsifying elma tec clean A1 with a pH of 10.8.  Use it for removing light oils, fluxing agents, dust, grease and fingerprints from PCBs, electromechanical devices, electronics and fine optics.  Recommended dilutions are to 3 to 10% with water.

Ammonia-containing elma tec clean A2 is an alkaline solution used to remove grinding, polishing and lapping media, grease and oil from nonferrous metals, precious metals, brass and copper.  Its ammonia content leaves a bright shiny surface on brass and copper products.  With a pH of 11, it is diluted to 5 to 10% with water."


As such, the pH of the cleaner to be used with dial metals and dirt suggest an alkaline pH (pH greater than 7). The MSDS of Jet Dry Ultra Finish shows that cleaner has a highly acidic pH of about 3.0 +/- 0.1. While making it suited to removing food products and water minerals from glass and dish materials, this cleaner would not be the best choice for dial metals which include brass covered with greases and oils.

As I posted somewhere on the forum about my approach to ultrasonic cleaning, I researched cleaners and even purchased commercially produced cleaners to see how they worked with dial metals and dial crud. I was not satisfied with a couple of cleaners suggested for carbon, grease and oils on brass and similar metal surfaces. I went deeper looking at the MSDS sheets for the cleaners I purchased and discovered a cleaner of pH 8.5 that worked could be made by mixing 2 teaspoons of Simple Green (pH: 9.5 – 11.5) and 1/2 teaspoon of store bought Ammonia Hydroxide (pH about 11) into 40 ounces of distilled water. That resulted in a cleaning solution with a pH of about pH 8.5, slightly alkaline and suited for cleaning dirt, grease and oils off of dial type metals. That home made cleaner worked well in cleaning dials without eating away or etching the dial metals. Of course, the ink markings on the back of the dial were protected (I use pure lanolin instead of Vaseline because lanolin is much thicker and when warmed in an ultrasonic bath will not melt away, from the heat, as Vaseline tends to do over time). Vaseline works but lanolin works better in a 100-120° F ultrasonic bath.

The above is what I found by research and application. I realize others use different ultrasonic cleaners with success. This is presented, again, to give anyone interested in ultrasonically cleaning anything how to approach to process. Setting up the right ultrasonic cleaner is as complex as the metals to be cleaned and the substances to be cleaned off of those metals. The above should help anyone decide how to choose a cleaner that works best for their application.

This is also meant to be an example of how to present detailed advice or help to resolve telephone restoration issues.

And, finally, Jeff has it right when he says the best way to clean a dial is to take it apart. The raceway through which the mainspring shaft runs is lubricated with a grease and ultrasonic cleaning will allow the cleaning solution to enter that raceway and mix with the grease leaving the grease cutting cleaner in the raceway mixed with the existing grease, something that most likely will cause problems years after being cleaned. As such, I will take dials apart and clean the parts in an ultrasonic bath with my cleaner, reassemble the dial with watch/clock grease in the mainspring raceway and apply watch/clock oil sparingly to the gear axle bearing points and gear interfaces.

As for taking dials apart, I have learned that dials are not that difficult to take apart and reassemble. After all, WE and the other companies hired employees off the street with no great knowledge in mechanical engineering to put the dials together and lubricate them. It's a little scary taking a dial apart for the first time but after a few, I began to wonder why I did not fully disassemble dials with major crud issues a long time ago. I was amazed at the condition of the grease within the mainspring raceway after it was removed after it was ultrasonically cleaned. And, it is best to have two similar dials on the bench the first few times a dial is worked on so the fully assembled as shipped from the factory dial can be used look at when when putting the other, newly cleaned other dial together.

Any questions about this, please reply or send me a PM. I think I covered it all but this was done off the top of my head and I may have not been clear on some points.