Line cord for 500.

[Dennis Markham]

Stephen, your analysis comparing some aspects of the two phones is very interesting.  I do agree with the points that you make.  I too especially like the way the hook switch can be put in the down position while the cover is off, giving the opportunity to test the ringer or perform other maintenance.  I recently took apart a red A.E.80 (I think I posted a photo a week or so ago).  I found the way the dial was mounted to be problematic.  While reattaching the dial ring the it was necessary to screw in three screws.  When applying pressure to the screws the dial would snap out of its mounting.  That's not a big deal but it was irritating at the time.  I do understand what you mean about the  W.E. dial mounting and having to work opposite hand or tip the phone on its side.  I like the W.E. 7 series dial in that it is fairly easy to work on and the A.E. dial seems to me to be intimidating.  It's almost a given that if you find an old A.E. phone the dial will be slow in returning or sticks where the Western dial seems to hold up over the long haul.  

I also agree with the "Operator" designation and like way it is printed on the A.E.  The early versions of the A.E. 80 has the handset cord coming out of the back of the phone.  The cord always seems to get in the way after lifting the phone and setting it down.  

I haven't used  the A.E. 80 long enough to make an opinion on which is more comfortable (A.E. or W.E.) to use while talking on the phone.  The difference in the A.E. 80 of the early 60's seems so much more durable and solid compared the same model at the end of the decade.

I have worked on many many 500's and only a few A.E. 80's so my opinion is swayed by familiarity.  I like the beefiness of the early A.E. 80.  One is going to have to tug hard to pull it off the desk.  They are very heavy.  If I had to choose between the two I would pick the Western Electric, but I'm sure that's no surprise.

[BDM]

Good point Dennis. The later 80s seem to have fallen in actual build quality. While the housing seems the same (I have two late versions), the hard component circuit board just seems flimsy.

Now, in actual use there is probably little difference in the average American home. But for the long haul, I would bet on the early 80 series.


P.S. I keep thinking I've read about the actual engineering of the 80/90 series phones. It may have been in one of the early TCI or ATCA news letters years ago. We all know that AE was the big hold out when it came to using W.E. 500 series sets as their base design. While others like Kellogg and SC went to 500 types early on, AE didn't. They wanted to challenge the 500 head on. I believe they did it, and did quite well. The last gasp of an independent

[Stephen Furley]

I like the W.E. 7 series dial in that it is fairly easy to work on and the A.E. dial seems to me to be intimidating.  It's almost a given that if you find an old A.E. phone the dial will be slow in returning or sticks where the Western dial seems to hold up over the long haul.  

I also agree with the "Operator" designation and like way it is printed on the A.E.  The early versions of the A.E. 80 has the handset cord coming out of the back of the phone.  The cord always seems to get in the way after lifting the phone and setting it down.  

I haven't used  the A.E. 80 long enough to make an opinion on which is more comfortable (A.E. or W.E.) to use while talking on the phone.  The difference in the A.E. 80 of the early 60's seems so much more durable and solid compared the same model at the end of the decade.

I have worked on many many 500's and only a few A.E. 80's so my opinion is swayed by familiarity.  I like the beefiness of the early A.E. 80.  One is going to have to tug hard to pull it off the desk.  They are very heavy.  If I had to choose between the two I would pick the Western Electric, but I'm sure that's no surprise.

What's the 7 series dial; is that the one that would be fitted in my 500, dated 11-70?    The dials on both my WE and AE 'phones work fine, but I only have experience of one example of each model.  The WE dial looks odd to me, with its small finger wheel, and because of this the finger stop moved to the 4 0'clock position, but that's just because I'm used to the British dial, which is quite different.

When you say the handset cord gets in the way, do you mean on the ones where it comes out of the back?  I've never found this to be a problem on the 706; maybe the different shape at the back of this 'phone makes a difference.  The cord on the left design is slightly less convenient if you hold the receiver in your right hand, but it's not a major problem.  I used to change hands fairly frequently on a long call, but I seldom use the telephone at home, and at work I use a headset these days if a call looks like being a long one, or I need to write notes of type during it.

One of my colleagues at work uses the 'phone in a rather odd way; he holds it in his left hand, but puts his arm round behind his head to hold it to his right ear.  The reason for this is that he is right-handed, but is partially deaf, and has better hearing in his light ear.  He was offered a handset with an inductive coupler, but declined.  It looks awkward, but he seems to manage fine that way.

While I haven't actually weighed them, there's not much difference either way between my WE and AE; both are heavier than a 746, and probably heavier than a 706, though the difference would be smaller there.  As for 'comfort', I really don't think there's anything to choose between the two designs.  Looking at them again this morning, in better light, I think you may be right about the WE case being slightly better made than the AE one.  The WE handset cord also seems to be better.  I also note that I still haven't got the dial on my WE sitting in quite the right position; I'm going to have to open it up again.

[Stephen Furley]

Good point Dennis. The later 80s seem to have fallen in actual build quality. While the housing seems the same (I have two late versions), the hard component circuit board just seems flimsy.

Now, in actual use there is probably little difference in the average American home. But for the long haul, I would bet on the early 80 series.


P.S. I keep thinking I've read about the actual engineering of the 80/90 series phones. It may have been in one of the early TCI or ATCA news letters years ago. We all know that AE was the big hold out when it came to using W.E. 500 series sets as their base design. While others like Kellogg and SC went to 500 types early on, AE didn't. They wanted to challenge the 500 head on. I believe they did it, and did quite well. The last gasp of an independent

You are right about there being little difference; the fact that I've had to pick on details as small as the way that the word 'Operator' is printed really would seem to confirm that there's very little difference to a typical user.

What happened to AE; were they taken over by somebody else?

Somebody kindly supplied me with the circuit diagram for the WE500 recently; does anybody have one for the AE80?

[Steve K]

Stephen:

Here is a link to an AE 80 schematic.
http://www.telephonecollectors.org/library/aeco/ae80a.pdf

I too find your comparisons between the AE and WE interesting.  I can not speak for other parts of the country but where I grew up in the midwest the cities were serviced by Wisconsin Bell Telephone which used WE equipment and the rural areas were serviced by General Telephone which used AE equipment.  I had cousins on the GTE lines and they always seemed to have problems with their phone service.  The lines were noisy compared to WE lines and rain and snow would also effect their service.  Their earliest phone I remember was an AE80 but they later got the more modern AE wall types and always had problems with the hook switches.  I guess I am just biased to the WE stuff!

Steve

[Dennis Markham]

Steve, you're right about the lousy lines on the GTE network.  Here in the Detroit area we always were on the Bell System.  A couple of my relatives live just 30 miles north in what was GTE territory.  I'm talking late 1960's and through the 1970's.  Whenever I spoke with them on the phone it was often a static filled conversation despite the fact that they had up to date phones.  I remember thinking then, when I had passing interest in telephones, how cheap the AE phones seemed compared to the quality phones we had with W.E. stuff.  Today the service there is Verizon.  Every time the snow starts to melt or it rains there is static on the line. 

[HobieSport]

Steve, I also really enjoy your detailed comparisons between the British and American phones, and the WE500 and AE80.  I'm also interested in comparisons between the WE302s and the AE40s, but I assume that you don't have those phones to compare.

I guess a lot of us in The States are biased towards the Western Electrics, as that is what many of us grew up with.  In fact my whole approach to collecting was to first get a WE302, 354, 500 and a 554, and then getting other brands to compare with them.

[Stephen Furley]

Steve, I also really enjoy your detailed comparisons between the British and American phones, and the WE500 and AE80.  I'm also interested in comparisons between the WE302s and the AE40s, but I assume that you don't have those phones to compare.

I have a WE302, but it's in rather poor condition at the moment, and along with most of my telephones, and other things that I collect, is in store.  I normally bring one telephone at a time out of store to use, and then swap it for another one every few weeks.  I don't have room to keep stuff at home, though I do have about half a dozen telephones at home at the moment to photograph.  I do not have a AE40, nor a kellogg Redbar, but I'd like to get examples of thee one day.  I want to complete the internal comparison of the 706/746, with the WE500 and AE80 when I get a moment.

[rp2813]

The dominant provider here in the SF Bay Area has always been the Bell System.  There were a few pockets of GTE territory and they still exist under Verizon.  I lived in Verizon territory for 18 years and just moved back into Bell territory last summer.  In the 60's and 70's I always found GTE's service to be sub-par and the telephone sets (I presume AE or other non-WE maker) seemed more like toy phones in the way the dials worked.  By the time I moved into GTE territory they were cleaning up their act and within a few years there was really nothing to complain about anymore.  Verizon knew they had to make improvements because too many Silicon Valley executives lived in their territory and were pushing for the Bell System to take over.  I was actually quite happy with Verizon and their calling features, such as two separate phone numbers that rang on the same line, one with a regular ring and one with a double ring.  This was great when we had a teenager in the house, as we assigned her the double ring number and we didn't have to make wasted trips to answer the phone anymore.  After she moved out we changed the second number and made it our fax line with the double ring.  This was not a very responsible feature to offer from the standpoint of depletion of line numbers in the area, but it sure was convenient.  If AT&T offered it I'd probably use it again.

The other great thing about living in Verizon territory was the easy way to get your own phone to ring.  Just dial your own number, wait for the beep, then hang up. 

Ralph

[HobieSport]

Steve, I also really enjoy your detailed comparisons between the British and American phones, and the WE500 and AE80.  I'm also interested in comparisons between the WE302s and the AE40s, but I assume that you don't have those phones to compare.

I have a WE302, but it's in rather poor condition at the moment, and along with most of my telephones, and other things that I collect, is in store.  I normally bring one telephone at a time out of store to use, and then swap it for another one every few weeks.  I don't have room to keep stuff at home, though I do have about half a dozen telephones at home at the moment to photograph.  I do not have a AE40, nor a kellogg Redbar, but I'd like to get examples of these one day.  I want to complete the internal comparison of the 706/746, with the WE500 and AE80 when I get a moment.

Stephen, If you are interested in getting an AE40, or a WE302 in better condition than yours, I have several, and would be quite willing to send you pictures and descriptions of the ones that I am willing to part with, and sell you an un-refurbished one at my cost (about $30.)  Too bad though about the high cost of shipping "across the pond".  I couldn't cover that cost.

Or maybe you have a British or other European phone that you might like to trade?  My only European phones so far are a Dutch PTT and two Swiss Albiswerk phones.  My preferences are black phones from the late 1930s to 1950s but will consider phones from the 1960s.  I'd love to get an older Siemens-Halske someday but they are expensive.

Anyway, watch the Virtual Gallery thread here in a week or so when I plan to post pictures of all my phones.

-Matt

P.S.  Hey Ralph I didn't know you were in the S.F. Bay Area.  I'm in Mendocino.  Glad to know I'm not the only Northern Calif member here.

[Stephen Furley]

Try connecting the yellow and the green together at the modular plug at the end of the cord. 

I haven't had a chance to look at it until today.  It's almost impossible to connect the two wires together at that end, due to them being so thin, and the type of connector fitted, so I tried strapping the two terminals at the other end, inside the telephone, as is much easier to do it there until I get a new line cord.  Telephone ringing fine now, thank you.

[BDM]

Can't comment on GTE long-lines. But I can tell you that a late W.E. doesn't feel any worse or better than a late AE80. Again, I wouldn't give it to one over the other. They got just as cheap in many ways. When I compare apples, I like to compare them to other apples. W.E. #7 series dials seem to need work just as much as any of the AE dials I've encountered. If they don't sound like a bag of gravel, they're stuck or sticking. A glance at Ebay descriptions backs this up. The AE dial design was licensed out. So this design is seen in most independent manufactures with little change in design. Even many of the European dials used AE as a base design.

Another thing that must be remembered. AT&T/Ma Bell, maintained their own lines with a certain attitude that could only be described as a mothers love for her children! When they put "anal" in the dictionary, the Bell symbol is given in the description.

So, AT&T/Bell manufactured strung, maintained, and supported their own system(few exceptions here, but you get the idea). On the other hand, GTE inherited many, probably ranging into the 1000s, other TelCo long & short line systems. Not to mention all the different switching equipment manufactured by AE, SC and Kellogg that was to be found in their system. So, you have all these small TelCo's with a multitude of different equipment. You have some systems that are maintained, and others that operate off a shoe string budget. Some were so poorly maintained, and sub-standard equipment used, it's a wonder the system worked at all.

Now along comes GTE. They start buying up these companies and try to throw together a large company. GTE had an enormous system that was in a state of repair from good, to extremely poor. Network and standards varied also. This was a BIG complaint from Ma Bell back in the day, when connecting to an opposing system. This cost money, money that couldn't just be pulled out of a hat. Also, lets not forget employee's. You have independent TelCo employee's who aren't happy about being bought out. Or aren't exactly use to being in a large corp and playing"team player".

AE SC and Kellogg were basically equipment suppliers. Yes, they did maintain a few systems of their own. But never to the degree Ma Bell did. Their bread & butter was in equipment manufacturing. Which they did quite well. In fact so well, that many of the switching innovations right into the 70s was accomplished not by Ma Bell, but by Kellogg AE and even SC. It may surprise many to realize that Bell maintained many AE and SC equipped exchanges well into the 70s. Why? Because the quality was excellent and there was no cost or quality advantage in changing them out, pure & simple.

Note, Ma Bell also inherited independent exchanges over time. But, Ma Bell had the supplies and capitol to upgrade them, almost immediately.

There is no debate. W.E. produced some of the finest telly equipment on the planet. It by far was never the leader in styling, but it was the leader in form & function, which was Ma Bell's intention. They never cared as much about the "dress" they wore, as opposed to the quality & function of the material. Granted, that later changed. But the quality didn't. As has been stated in many publications, all the independent TelCo sets by the late 50s were about the same. They matched W.E. quality, as they produced the same sets. So close, that parts interchange. The K500 and SC500 are perfect examples.

Prior to this, I believe AE produced some of the highest quality sets outside of Ma Bell. The AE34 and 40 are great examples of some fine telly sets. smooth quiet dials, and if ever a telly set could be called sexy, the AE34 set was it. It's also well built.

I'm obviously no expert. Not sure there is one in this day & age. But, much of this info not only comes from having these sets in hand, and studying them to death. But from others who were there(Roger C. of ATCA/TCI comes to mind). Or publications, or many of the articles written in the news letters from the clubs I've belonged to. ATCA and TCI for starters. The internet is loaded with info also, good or bad.

[BDM]

Oh, one other thing that's been on my mind. Most of these sets have long outlived their design intent. Including the dials. Even the cheap sets are still living on. Granted, these aren't machines that suffer heat cold abuse hail storms and poor maintenance. But, considering other house hold items, they have lived a long time. Now in our hands, are going to live even longer.

[Stephen Furley]

Steve, I also really enjoy your detailed comparisons between the British and American phones, and the WE500 and AE80.  I'm also interested in comparisons between the WE302s and the AE40s, but I assume that you don't have those phones to compare.

I'm writing a comparison between a WE302 and a British 300 series, actually a 328, this weekend.  I don't have a AE40, but there's a rather nice one in Telephone Lines shop, and if it's still there after payday I might think about it.  It's been converted to British three-wire ringing, but shouldn't be difficult to convert back.  This probably also means that it's got a modern thin plastic line cord, though I didn't notice; the handset cord looks original.

[Sargeguy]

I would love a copy of the .pdf describing the different plugs and jacks.