WE 233 with 685A subset won't break dialtone

[Tim Mc]

Hi all,
I just got a WE 233 coin collector that had an ITT mini network installed.  The phone worked prior to me removing the network.  I have a 685A subset with a 425B network that I would like to mount under the 233 to provide a ringer.  As it is wired below, when I plug in the cord I get constant dialtone.  The hookswitch will not go onhook or break dialtone, and the dial will not break dialtone.  There is no terminal strip at the top of the upper housing, so I'm using a temporary terminal strip as shown for the "TR" connections.  I suspect that I'm missing something obvious.

Here's how it is wired now:
Hookswitch BB jumpered to Hookswich BBX.
There are no wires connected to Hookswitch SL, or to the lower BKX terminal.

Handset Red to Hookswitch Y
Handset White to Hookswitch GR
Handset Black to TR (temp terminal strip in lower housing)
Handset Black to TR (temp terminal strip in lower housing)

685A Subset
425B GN to Hookswitch W
425B B to Hookswitch Y
425B R to TR (temp terminal strip in lower housing)
425B C to L2
425B RR to L1
425B A to Ringer Slate
425B K to Ringer Red/Slate
L2 on 685A terminal strip to Ringer Black
L1 on 685A terminal strip to Ringer Red

Line cord
R to L2 on 685A terminal strip
G to L1 on 685A terminal strip

Any guidance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

[poplar1]

Do you have a diagram to follow?
For starters:

Handset red goes to T on terminal block
Handset white goes to SL GN on hookswitch
Handset black goes to TR
Handset white goes to TR

EDIT:
Sorry, I was looking at a 233G that I had just bought, not noticing that someone had moved some wires.

[poplar1]

685A Subset

425B C to L2
425B RR to L1

Line cord
R to L2 on 685A terminal strip
G to L1 on 685A terminal strip

C and RR are the input to the network.
Since you have L1 permanently strapped to RR, and L2 permanently stapped to C, you have bypassed  the hookswitch and dial, by creating a short circuit from L1 to RR. That would make it where you can't break dial tone with either the hookswitch or the dial.  You need to disconnect and remove the (blue) factory jumper from RR of network to L1 of terminal strip.

Also, move the factory brown jumper (that goes from C on the network)  from 2 on the terminal strip  to L2 on terminal strip.

[poplar1]

Here is a good diagram G-Man posted a while back:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14500.msg150785#msg150785

[Tim Mc]

Thanks!  Blue jumper removed.  That was one of the diagrams I printed.  I grabbed another cable to keep the line cord connected at the subset, and extended L1 on the subset to "R" on the switchhook per the diagram.    I now have ringing, but when I lift the handset there is no dialtone until I touch the dial, which I also get loud clicks.  I'm thinking that I need to look at the dial pawl and dial contacts and make sure they're connected to the correct transfer contacts on the upper housing.  Even with the prior mini-network, the dial clicks seemed too loud.

[Tim Mc]

A few more questions:  Should BKX be connected to something?  I believe BKX was previously connected to the mini network.  On the diagram I assume the DS (dial shorting contacts) and DP (dial pulse contacts) are referring to the dial.  The dial appears to be connected correctly. Any other ideas on what may be blocking dialtone until the dial is barely moved?  My next step is to switch out the #6 dial unless there's something else that I should check.

[UPDATE:  I switched out the #6 to a good #5 dial with the same results.  Can't get dialtone on off-hook until I barely move the dial.  When I release the dial, it goes on-hook, or blocks dialtone.]

Thanks again!

~Tim

[Tim Mc]

I've read a few other threads and this seems common to my phone:

I get the dial tone when I push and hold the 4 prong with my fingers with the housing off. When I put the front housing on, I do not get any dial tone. Housing is pushed back firmly and tight. With saying that, when the phone is all put together, I get no dial tone. But, If I move the dial and hold it, I get a dial tone and when I let off the dial, there is no dial tone?

I may bypass the dial and see if I can at least get it to work that way.

[andre_janew]

I remember reading something similar to that somewhere myself.  I think the problem was a cam that needed to be reoriented.  I also remember that it was a #7 dial, so that may not apply in this case.

[poplar1]

Just looked at your picture; there are no brown wires on A and BKX in the upper housing. These are for the gong signal transmitter. Also, no capacitor (connects to A and X) and no red-white jumper wire from E terminal on back of coin chute to R terminal for dial cord.

You can bypass this transmitter, if you want, by swapping the red and black dial cord wires:

Dial:             Dial Cord:            Terminal Strip in lower part of upper housing:
Y               Yellow                      Y
BK             Black                        BKX -----------------> MOVE THIS DIAL CORD WIRE TO R ON TERMINAL STRIP
BB             Blue (or Green)        BB
W              White                       W
R               Red                           R --------------------> MOVE THIS DIAL CORD WIRE TO BKX ON TERMINAL STRIP

DS are contacts on the coin relay, shown in the "lower housing" on the diagram. The dial contacts that open the receiver (to prevent clicks) are ON (off-normal) in the upper housing.

[poplar1]

Missing in photo of upper housing:

Capacitor: Green wire to A, other green wire to X
Signal Transmitter: Brown wire to A, other brown wire to BKX
Jumper: Red-white wire from E on xmtr assembly  to R on terminal strip

[poplar1]

Thanks!  Blue jumper removed.  That was one of the diagrams I printed.  I grabbed another cable to keep the line cord connected at the subset, and extended L1 on the subset to "R" on the switchhook per the diagram.   

The red line wire (L1 in subset)  does not connect to R, rather it should go to "Y" on the hookswitch.
The green wire connects to "L" on the terminal strip at the top, but can also be connected directly to L2 in the subset.

[HarrySmith]

I had a similar problem once. It ended up being the position of the wires on the dial, the way the lugs faced. One lug was sticking straight out from the screw and was shorting on something inside the phone when the housing was put on. Simply loosening the screw and turning the lug to the side as far as possible fixed it.

[Tim Mc]

Thanks for the info!  Just to reset, I had to break out my trusty IV-37 101A and make sure the hookswitch worked.  I know 302s well, so I mapped out the hookswitch and wired up a 302 with a 5H:

On-hook there are no connections.  Off-hook, BBX to GN, and Y to SL.

I'll now rewire it to the 685A and use the notes below. 

~Tim

[poplar1]

If you follow the diagram, you'll see that there has to be continuity from  (ring) )Y on the hookswitch to RR on the network, when the phone is off-hook. And from tip of line to C (through the brown jumper). If this continuity is broken, then there will be no dial tone.

+Tip--------L-----------L2------------------–C

-Ring-----Y----x----SL-----/-----Y-----Y---/---BK-----BKX----signal xmtr-----A-----Electromagnet-----E-------R:------/-----R-------RR
                    SH.          TC.               DP.                                                                                                           TC 

[poplar1]

-Ring-----Y----x----SL-----/-----Y-----Y---/---BK-----BKX----signal xmtr-----A-----Electromagnet-----E-------R------/-----R-------RR
                    SH.          TC.               DP.                                                                                                TC 

-Ring-----Y----x----SL-----/-----Y-----Y---/---BK----BKX----signal xmtr-----A-----Electromagnet-----E-------R------/-----R-------RR
                    SH.          TC.               DP.                                                                                                                                     
So, since you apparently don't have the signal transmitters or the capacitor, you must bypass these, which are indicated in red. If they are not connected, then move the black dial cord wire from BKX to R (on the same terminal strip):


-Ring-----Y----x----SL-----/-----Y-----Y---/---BK-----BKX----signal xmtr-----A-----Electromagnet-----E-------R------/-----R-------RR
                    SH.          TC.               DP.     

-Ring-----Y----x----SL-----/-----Y-----Y---/---BK-----R------/---R----RR
                    SH.          TC.                DP