Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => General Discussion => Topic started by: poplar1 on March 11, 2014, 09:36:49 AM

Title: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 11, 2014, 09:36:49 AM
INDEX to date range tables   (unbeldi provided index with click-on links below)

Telephone Types
•Desk stands (candlesticks)
•Hand Telephone Sets (A, B, C, D, E, G handset mountings, 102, 202 telephones) -- Reply #10
•300-type Telephone sets -- Reply #9
•500-type telephone sets -- Reply #82
•554-type wall telephones -- Reply #83
•Princess, Trimline telephones -- Reply #83
•1500 and 2500 series Touch Tone telephones -- Reply #83

Components:
•302 telephone base differences -- Reply #37
•Induction coils -- Reply #48
•Transparent finger wheels -- Reply #87

================================================================
( note:  linked index copied from Reply #199 posted by unbeldi (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg190732#msg190732) for convenience -- now here in the first and the last post )

INDEX to date range tables

Telephone Types

Components:

================================================================



  Earliest Actual Dates Found: Latest Reported: Latest refurbish date found:
   reported: Earliest: Latest:


___________________________________________________
Dial Desk Stands: ("Candlesticks") (not dated before 1929 except for transmitters starting c. 1926)

50-AL.........c. 1919-1925?....
  #549-B receiver cord. #550-B desk stand cord (3-conductor). Two #547-B cords for transmitter
  4-conductor #395-B dial cord ("harness") -- Later called "395-B Switch Cord" (C32.460, i1).
   Patent Dates On Side Or Front:
  --PAT IN USA AUG 16 04 SEPT 13 04 JAN 26 15 JAN 1 18
  or
  --PAT IN USA SEPT 13 04 JAN 26 15 JAN 1 18 MAY 7 18
  or
  Patent Dates on Front Rim: PAT IN USA JAN 26 15 JAN 1 18 MAY 7 18 SEPT 21 20

51-AL.........c. 1925-1930... (shown in 1925 WE Catalog #6)[/color] 229 - 130 (No date stamp before 229)
  --PAT IN USA JAN 26 15 JAN 1 18 MAY 7 18 SEPT 21 20
  --3-conductor D3A deskstand cord --  5  1/2 feet
  --2-conductor R2A receiver cord -- 2  1/2 feet
  --3-conductor D3B Switch Cord ("harness") -- 9 inches

  --T1A transmitter cord -- 9  7/8 inches

51-C

151-AL (conversions only)...c. 1931-1948  C32.401, Issue 1, 6-1-31
  --5-conductor switch cord "harness." Typically, this is a 3-conductor D3B cord, with 2 additional (yellow and blue) conductors wrapped on the outside of the original cord.  

151-C

 
152-AB.(conversions only) with head receiver. 1962


2-Type Dials
 

    2A (c. 1920-1930) "Y BK BB W" terminals 841R1243
           "2A" stamped on back, no patent info, unmarked finger stop
                  with no WE markings or patent dates
                  with WE markings on outside rim of dial

   "2A" stamped on finger stop (along with second letter):
           With writing on outside rim of dial:
                  PAT APP FOR
                  Patent dates: AUG 13 12 AUG 24 15 DES MAY 7 18 SEPT 13 21
           With patent dates on back of dial 130 -- 230 430

D-75797 D-75978 with plain finger stop; no "operator" on number plate
       PAT APP FOR on outside rim
      Patent Dates on outside rim
 

Note: 2H, 4H or 5H dials can be used on dial desk stands if BB and R terminals are strapped.


Transmitter:
      323 JAN. 1928
      #329
      337 130440T446T
      635A ("Bulldog" with F1 transmitter unit)
     323>337conversion 143T  


Receiver:
      143/144 228--earliest stamped date found; most are undated
      706A (with HA1 receiver unit)

Receiver Cord:
     #549-B (for 50-AL)
     R2A
     R2D II 39



Desk Stand Cord: (from phone to subset)
    #550-B (for 50-AL)
    D3A (for #51-AL and #51-CM) 30 - 32
    D3AK  I 55 (twill weave)
    D4U (151-AL, 152-AB)
    D4AN (151-AL, 152-AB)



WALL SETS with separate transmitter and receiver:

     293A
    333A
    533A 230
   633A

Metal Wall Set with dial, separate transmitter and receiver: 1920-1946
  1553A (sidetone)
   with 2A dial
  1653A (antisidetone)  II 36 - I 45 -1946
(dates of new sets)
   with 4H dial
  with 5H dial 1939 -

   with 146B induction coil
  with 101-type induction coil III 37

1653 E-F-G-H (harmonic ringers for frequency selective ringing on party lines)
    653H   III 37

  ________________________________________________________________________________
Subsets, common battery:

Sidetone:== 3-conductor cord from subset to phone == for 102, 20 AL, 40 AL, 50 AL, 51 AL. (May also be used with 202 or 151AL: Tape and store black conductor in mounting cord or desk stand cord)


212A

295A (oak or walnut).............c.1905
  21-D Condenser:
   2.0 uF.......c. 1905-1914?
  1.0 uF.......c. 1918?- ?

295BP (cow gongs)

334A (steel, exposed gongs)...c.1916-
   6A ringer, 25A gongs, 20 Induction Coil {C31.101, Issue 1, 2-15-33==TCI Library}
 
534A (steel, enclosed gongs)..c. 1920-1930(?)
  With No. 20 Induction Coil and 8A ringer
  With No. 46 Induction Coil and 8A ringer
  With No. 46B Induction Coil and 8A ringer
  With No. 46B Induction Coil and 68A  ringer (inverted gongs) c. 1929-1930
  Note: 8A has 29A gongs painted black; 68A uses 29C eccentric gongs (oxidized brass)

584A (brass with Bakelite cover)..c.1930-1943......... 230....I 42
   46C induction coil, 78A ringer

Anti-sidetone: (for 202, 211, 140AL. 151 AL, 152 AB) == 4-conductor cord from phone to subset
434A (conversions only)
   146B induction coil {C31.111, Issue 1, June 1931} (TCI Library)
  101A induction coil {C31.101 Issue 3, July, 1953} (TCI library)

495BP (conversions only)--Cow gongs

634A (Steel) (Conversions only?)

684A (Bakelite cover) II 31 - II 37
  146C Induction Coil  2 31 -
  101-type Induction Coil IV 34 -
  78A ringer  II 31 - 1949

634BA (Steel, high impedance ringer) (Conversions only?)

684BA (Bakelite cover, high impedance ringer III 36...12/55
  78JA ringer
  B1A/B1AL ringer

NOTE: The base of a 302 set can also be used as an anti-sidetone subset.
___________________________________________________________________

Conversions and modifications:
All 151-AL desk stands are conversions
All 5302s are conversions
All 434A subsets are converted from sidetone 334A subsets.
All 495BP subsets are converted from 295-type (sidetone) such as 295A or 295BP.
Many sidetone 553A wall phones were converted to 653A anti-sidetone.
Many 534A subsets were converted to 634A or 634BA.
Many 584A subsets were converted to 684A or 684BA.

Dials:
2-type converted to 4H:
  with 4H style single contacts
  with Twin (bifurcated) contacts                         R I 41 - 146T 5-48T

Original 4H dials found on remanufactured 302s     I 35 - IV 37

4H: twin contacts added:
  straight W contact spring                                                          R II 41 - 841T
  W contact spring with offset                                                   342M - 1-49T


Old Dial Distribution on a small sample of 302s:

Furnished (as found on non rebuilt sets)--other than 5H:

1938: Unmodified 4H (i.e. single contacts)
1939: 2A>4H with single contacts (W terminal next to governor)
1940: 2A>4H--both single contacts and twin contacts (TC)
1941: Unmodified 4H and 2A>4H TC

Examples found on Original (dates matching) Sets

1937: Original 5H dials dated IV 37 found on 11-37 and 12-37 sets
1938: Unmodified 4Hs found: (III 37 on) 2-38 set, (undated on) 3-38, (I 37 on) 4-38.

1939: 2A>4H converted dials--with single contacts found on 302s dated 6/39, 6/39, 8/39

1940: 2A>4H converted dials with single contacts found on 302 dated 12/40.
  2A>4H with twin contacts on 11/40 and another 12/40 set.

1941: 2A>4H converted dials with twin contacts found on 10/41 plastic set;
  4H found on another 10/41 plastic set.

1945: 2A>4H twin contacts found on 12/45 set

Found on remanufactured sets:


2A >4H TC on 7-37/R54
2A>4H TC "146T" on 1-39/11-53A
Unmodified 4H dated I 35 found on 6-47/R54 set

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 12, 2014, 11:02:21 AM
Added info:

302 with standard size plungers: oldest I found Nov. 1937

302 baseplate:
  Flat: newest found 7-37 reported 11-37
  With one boss for redesigned condenser mount: oldest I found Nov. 1937; newest 8-38
  With added square boss for inverted 101A induction coil: oldest found 9-38
  With added rectangular boss for condenser: oldest found Jan. 1940

  With 4 holes for ringer mount: newest Feb. 1939
  Without these holes: oldest March 1939


H-1 stamped in metal outside: newest found  6-38
H-1 stamped inside in vermilion: oldest found 12-38  11-38[/s]7-38
                   
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Kenton K on March 12, 2014, 05:26:59 PM
I have a totally flat 302 base plate from 11-37. One without the condenser 'bump'.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 26, 2014, 08:32:10 AM
*Trying to close the gaps on the above in order to update the table. Does anyone have any of the following:

--Any number plates dated II 38, III 38, or I 54
--Number plate dated III 53 with black dot
--Any 4H dial newer than I 38 II 38 (found one dated II 38)
--WE 5H dial later than 1-52 9-52 12-52
--WE 5J dial after 12-52

--Original painted metal 302s--other than black--any date
--Original metal 302 later than 6/46
--Any 1936 or 1937 302 with original dial
--Any Continental or Imperial before 1955 or after 1956

--F1 handset made after 10/44  7/45 and before 4/46
--Black thermoplastic F-1 handset--any dates

--3-conductor 1942-1944 mounting cord (line cord) for 302--cloth cord with cloth covered conductors

--Any rubber jacketed cords before 1946


Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 14, 2014, 10:59:51 AM
Does anyone have a 302 made between 1942 and 1944 with original cords?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: paul-f on April 14, 2014, 01:54:17 PM
Adding 149B II 34, 150B III 38, P-340016 I 54 and 164A IV 75 ...

Number Plate:
149-type.............................1934-38........II 34................I 38*
150-type.............................1938-53
Square D.....................................*III 38.............II 40
Rounded D, with Z........................III 40..............II 53

No Z...........................................III 53......IV 53

P-340016............................1952-54 (Black dot)
With Z....................................... ..I 52.................II 53*
No Z.......................................
.....*IV 53..................I 54

164-type....................................
.............II 54........IV 75

Still need II 38 and III 53 (black dot).
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 16, 2014, 08:09:22 AM
Thanks Paul, Doug and Kenton, who have contributed date info. Also  Greg and Larry. And unbeldi.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Sargeguy on April 17, 2014, 08:21:29 PM
Do we have dates for when aluminum D-1s were replaced by zinc alloy?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: paul-f on April 17, 2014, 09:16:33 PM
Mountjoy put the transition in 1936, but there has been past discussion of zinc sets dated 1935.

It would be interesting to confirm with observations.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM
Telephone Sets

Recent updates in blue
Dates reported by others in green
Latest refurbish date found in red
[Dates in brackets are based on surrounding dated parts in same phone]

* indicates missing date information


   
                       MANUFACTURE DATES OBSERVED                    LATEST REFURBISH
                                          Earliest --  Latest                                     DATE OBSERVED
                                                                                         
Model or Part Number         

302 Tel Set 1936-1954--Black sets are factory equipped with H1 telephone set mounting, F-type handset including  H3C/H3AG cord, apparatus blank or 4H/5H/6A dial, D2D/D3AL/D3AY mounting cord
       Metal:1936-1946
           Black                    IV 36 -- 6/46                    4/57
           Color (painted metal, painted brown Bakelite handset)
             -4    Ivory           5/39 10/39  --11/41
             -6    Old Brass
             -7    Statuary Bronze
             -8    Oxidized Silver
             -12  Dark Gold     12/40
             -16  Old Rose      3/39
             -18  Dark Blue
             -19  Gray-Green   3/39
             -20  Pekin Red         


              (New, painted metal Ivory, Rose, Blue, Gray-Green, Pekin Red 302s no longer made as of 1-2-41 per C30.111, C30.011  Iss 4--replaced by thermoplastic.)
             

      Plastic 1941-1954
         Black                                                      9/41 -- 12/52              R12-60 A - WCR161 R-7-62  NOTE: 6 26 41 housing found
              Furnished with 5H dial                      10/41 -- 8/52
              Furnished with 6A dial                       11/51 -12/52
         Color
              Furnished with 5J dial                        11/41 - 4-53  (The dials were made in 12-52 or earlier)
              Furnished with 6D dial                          5/53  -1/54                                                                
             -4    Ivory                                           11/41 -- 1/54[/color]          Note: 5 20 41 housing reported
             -16  Old Rose                                    10/50 -- 1/54
             -18  Dark Blue                                   10-23-40 handset and housing reported  -- 6/53
             -19  Gray-Green                                10/41 -- 4/51
             -20  Pekin Red                                  2/50 -- 4/53
                                           10 10 41 housing found

           
         NOTE: Color thermoplastic 302s were made c. 1941-2 then c. 1949-1954.
         WR-C30.011, Issue 1, 8-5-42 indicates that "the manufacture of colored station sets has been discontinued."
         "The resumption of color 302s was announced in BLR v27, p.43 (January 1949)"
         NOTE: In 1955, the WE repair shops remanufactured 302s in the 500 colors, using molded color thermoplastic housings and painted handsets.
         
>Addendum C32.502, Issue 2, March, 1955 (AT&T Std.), shows 500-series colors for 302s, but only  as two-tone sets. The same information is included in  Issue 8 of C32.502, October 1955.
         


Housing

      Small Plungers With Tel Set Mtg Code on outside over mouse hole:
                 "H1-3"           [IV 36]  -- [5-37]*
                 "H1"             [7-37] -- [11-37] [12-37]
      Large plungers
                H-1 stamped outside [11-37] -- [7-38]
                H-1 stamped inside   [7-38] --  11 5 60

Hand Hold
     Metal (painted to match phone)
         With "vents" for ringer  [IV36] -- [10-37]       
         Without "vents"            [10-37] -- [1942]*
     Plastic                             *[1946] -- [1954]

Cord tips for hookswitch and condenser

     SOLDERED:
             hookswitch            [4-37] -- [3/39]
             condenser             [4-37] -- [1/39]
             jumper
     CRIMPED:
            hookswitch             4/39 -- [5/39]
            condenser              [2/39]
            jumper
     
Baseplate
With 4 holes for Ringer Mount   
        Flat                            .IV36 -- 11-37   Note: Cardboard pad under condenser
        1 boss for capacitor mount                11-37 -- 8-38 9-38
        Add 2nd boss for inverted ind. coil  9-38 -- 2-39 3-39
Without holes for Ringer Mount
       2 bosses                                           3-39 -- 12-39
       Add 3rd boss for condenser                1-40 --  4-51*
With new steel ringer mount                   *10-526/52 --  2/54*


ALUMINUM BASEPLATE

             "A" stamped after date:          S-3-47-A11-47A --9-48-A   
                                        Note: "A" was stamped on both baseplate and ringer. The ringers were adjusted at the  factory to function properly with the aluminum base plate. 

             Date only (no "A")     1-49,  5-49-I, 7-49-I
                                           These aluminum bases required a metal adapter  between the ringer and the baseplate.

             
S prefix             S-11-44 S-12-44 -- S-3-47-A
H prefix (on dial)  H-1-46 -- H-8-46
I suffix or prefix            8-49-I -- 10-52-I
                                                                         

Ringer  B1A or B1AL
       
            not dated                                             [4-37 set] -- [4-38]
                vermilion star, not dated                        [12-37] ; [4-38]
                "B1A" stamped in black on frame       [2-37]   ;  4-38
            date stamped in vermilion on ringer coil    6-38 -- 11-55

       40A and 40B brass gongs
            "40 A" stamped in black ink                   [2-37 set]
                                          stamped into gong                     [2/40 ringer]
       41A and 41B gongs
             Brass.                                         [1/41] -- [3/42]
             Steel--painted black                        [S11-44] [S-12-44]  [S-1-45] -- [S-4-45] [S-6-45] [S-7-45] [S-12-45]
             1 brass + 1 painted steel                 [S-2-46] -- [S-6-46]
                    41A steel + 41B brass              [5/46]
             Steel--unpainted                             [10/51] -- [10/52]

             "Red striped".                               3/42

Feet
             Rivets                                          2-37 4-37 -- IV 37
             Screws                                        10-37-- 2-54

             Suede
             Wool  (some)                                10/46 -- 5/48
             
             
   

Handset

       E-type  (1936-1937)                                                           Also found on some remanufactured sets including plastic sets

       F-type

                     Handle:
                         "BELL SYSTEM"
                           "Manufactured by Western Electric Company" 11 04 38   49 (4/39)  99 (9/39) -94 [9/44]
                           "Made by Western Electric"                            56 (5/46) - 10 (1/50)

                         Separate screw terminals for connecting handset cord:  3 08 37 -- 49 (4/39) 99 (9/39)
                         Usual screw terminals for cord                                           109 (10/39) -                       
               Bakelite
             Grooveless  Complete list here: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.msg118965#msg118965
                    Solid Core
                         Black IV 36 --11/16/37
                         Brown(painted) *59 (5/39) -- 21 (2/41)*
                    Hollow Core--Brown painted: *99 (9/49) -- 124 (12/54)*

             Grooved (Black) (1937-1955)
                    Solid Core                         
                           Date stamped in xmtr cavity  6 03 37 6-12-37*10-25-37 -- 1-9-39
                                                                       *Note: 6 03 37 and 6-12-37 handsets were found on  field trial 302 sets
                           Date code embossed in handle, under receiver cap...
                                                                     19 (1/39) -- 75 (7/45)*
                            Not dated on handle -- [10/45 xmtr and rec units] - S11/45 xmtr/S11 28 45 rec) on 12-45 302
                    Hollow Core  *46 (4/46) -- 1955
            Thermoplastic
                   Color
                         Solid Core          10-30-40 -- 11-3-41
                         Hollow Core        2/ 9 (2/49) -- 2-56
                   Black                                 *    --    *

    F1 transmitter unit                    IV 34 -- 1-73
    HA1 receiver unit                      JUN 2 1937 --  4-56 6-58
    Black Plastic Caps                     6-58P -- 4-60P

F-type handsets were sometimes upgraded to a BA type, which had a HC5 receiver unit and an F1 transmitter unit.

The F4 originally an F1 transmitter unit and a U-1 receiver unit. Later F4s had a T1 transmitter unit and a U-1 receiver unit.


Dial

4H        (4H-type dials were made from 230 -- II38)   I 38 dial found on 3-38 302
     
5H (1936-1952) (Finger wheel and case are painted to match phone)

     "5H" Stamp:
             On right side of governor (upside down)   IV 36 - II 38 IV 38
             On left side of governor                       I 39  III 39  IV 39 - 12-52

      Date Stamp:
            Quarter/Year                IV 36- IV 41
            Month - Year                4(?)-43 - 12-52

     W terminal by governor, single contacts:
              Phenol pulse pawl ("Silent"),                IV 36 -- I 38
             Regular pulse pawl                               III 38 

     W terminal next to Y, twin contacts.
               Phenol pulse pawl                              II 38        
               Regular pulse pawl                             II 38 -- 12-52
   
     Brass color terminal screws   IV 36 -- II 40
     Steel color screws                IV 40 - 12/52

     Long finger stop                    IV 36 -- 6-44 4-45 *
     Short finger stop                  *S-6-45  S7-45--  10-45 H-3-46 -- 12-52
                                                            Short finger stop seen on S-9-45 302F with all matching dates
     
    Brass (?) case                           1-49 - 2-49

     --#10 Catalog (1939): 5J dials with white enamel cases and stainless steel "finger wheels, finger stops and card holder frames" are shown  for ivory, pekin red, gray green, dark blue and old rose 302s.  302s in old brass, statuary bronze, oxidized silver and dark gold continue to have 5H dials with painted finger wheels.
     

5J (1937-1952)
     --With Stainless Steel finger wheel, number card holder, and finger stop...
                                                IV 39 -- IV 40

     --With P-298941 transparent finger wheel and nickel silver finger stop
                                                           II 41 -- 6/42
                 C30.011, Issue 4, 1-2-41, "Colored Station Sets"
                 Thick finger wheel used with X-shaped finger wheel clamp
   
     --With P-372629 transparent finger wheel ....
                                                   4/47 -- 11-52 
                (BSP Addendum C30.011, Issue 1, 12-15-47)

     --With P-344837 transparent finger wheel
                                                     12-52
Note: The P-344837 transparent finger wheel, with hole for a stiff wire or paper clip to remove it, is shown in Addendum  C30.011, Issue 1,  12-17-51. The complete assembly, which includes the P-347999 finger wheel clamp, is coded P43A212.

>>>>>>>>1949 ad shows 302s in 9 colors, all with transparent finger wheels                             
         
6A.......11-51 -- 1952-1970.......with black painted aluminum finger wheel and black case
      plain finger stop 3-52 -- 4-53[color=red] * 3-54
      6 stamped on finger stop
*11-54 -- 3-70

6D........1953-1955.......with P-344837 or P-19B524 clear finger wheel and white case NOTE: Also could be ordered with black cases (per 1957 Graybar catalog)
     plain finger stop..................5-53 -- 1-54*
      6 stamped on finger stop.......*9-54 2-55 -- 12-55
"The 6D dial, which supersedes the 5JB, should be used for replacement purposes on plastic and painted sets  except those in the 500 series." C30.011 Issue 6, Dec. 1953

6AA            9-76 -- 83/03

Note: the P-344837 could also be used on 6D and 7C dials, if the P-19B524 was not available.

Number Plate
149-type (1934-38)  II 34 - I 38*
150-type...1938-53
         150A (numbers and "operator")                       II 38 -- I 51

         150B (letters and numbers) 
             Square D  *                                                III 38 -- II 40
             Rounded D, with Z                                     III 40 -- II 53
             No Z                                                         III 53 -- IV 53
         

P-340016   1952-54  (Black dot)
           With Z                      I 52 -- II 53
           No Z                         III 53  -- IV::53 -- I 54 II :54

164A                                    III 53I 54 -- IV 75
         No 164As found with "Z"
                          "164A" on back             III 53
                          "164A" on front

Note: 150A, 150E, 164A are all listed in BSP Section C34.102, Issue 3, December, 1956, along with 164B (for coin collectors) and 164C-3 (for 5302s). However, by 2/63 the only 150-type not "manufacture discontinued" was the 150E plate with party line letters (C18.005.00 Issue 4).


Handset Cord 302s as originally assembled had H3C, H3AA, or H3AG
   Fabric jacket:
       
                 
      H3C (1937-1957)
               twill weave (1937-1941)   II 37  II 38
                           brass-color restraints          II 38
               basket weave                   III 41   -- 57   
      H3P (Retractile/spring)            III 40 -- III 55
      H3T                                         II 54  
      H3W                                   
      H3AA (Wartime Restrictions--cotton covered conductors)
                                                      I 44.......II 45
   
  Other jacket Rubber: 1938-1941, not for general use; Neoprene 1946-?; standardized in 1949 per BLR May, 1959.
By 1959, PVC had replaced Neoprene.
      H3H                 I 46 -- IV 47
      H3AD               I 48 -- IV 50
      H3AF    (spring)II 51 -- 57 -- II 60
      H3AG              1952 --IV 53 IV 56 I 57
      H3AH              II 55 IV 58 -- I 59
      H3AJ (spring) I 58   IV 58 -- IV 59
      H3AR (spring) IV 60  III 62 --67
      H3AS              I 60 -- 62

Mounting Cord   Original sets have D2D, D3AL, D3AT [WR], or D3AY.  D3AK (found on some thermoplastic color 302s)
  Fabric jacket
     D2D                                  II 38
     D2E (with 283B plug)       III 46
     D2K (Wartime Restrictions -- cotton covered conductors)
                                            IV 43 -  45
     D3AK (found on some thermoplastic color 302s)   
                                             I 49  IV 49 - IV 54
     D3AL               
          twill weave (1937-1941)
          basket weave             IV 41   II 42;  III 46;  52
          twill weave                   IV 55
     D3AM (with 283B plug)      III 49 - I 51
     D3AT (Wartime Restrictions -- cotton covered conductors) 
                                              I 45       

Other jacket (Rubber, neoprene or PVC)
    D3AR.        55 (with 283B plug)
    D3AY           I 49 I 56 III 57
    D3BF               I 58
    D3BK              I 59 -- II 59 -- 60
    D3BP              61 -- III 64 (Has dual cord restraint for use on 500 or 302/5302; idea suggested by a Southern Bell repairman per  B. B. Wingo)
_____________________________________________________
251 Plastic   4-53
252BW (wall set) 6-56
304 Metal     5-38                                                                          1R  6-59
302ACW      8-53 (black)

354..(M3 tel set mtg) (c. 1946-1956)
             Black                   10/471/48 -- 4/56
             Ivory                   11-54 - 12-55

410-AC (2-line set) 1-42 -- 12-54

5302(conversions only) (1955-1963)  2-6-63 housing found with Bell System markings

            Handset:
                  F1-type
                  GF-type
                  G1
                  F4

            Dial:
               5M dial (converted from 5H) or 6H
               164C number plate:             I 57 -- III 62 I 65
                        Note: when equipped with G1 or F4 handset, it should also have 6-type dial [because of zoning requirements; the 6-type dial is more accurate.]

Multi-line 44x, 46x (1938-1954)
       Metal 440, 460 (no lamps)
       Plastic 440, 444, 460, 464
               5H dial
               6A dial                  2-54 -- 5-54
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:59:28 AM
________________________________________________________________________
Hand Telephone Sets:

Designed to be used with common battery subset, local battery subset, or local battery talk/common battery signaling subset. These subsets can be either sidetone or anti-sidetone.

Common Battery Subsets:
Sidetone: 534A, 584A
Anti-sidetone: 684A, 684BA, 634A, 634BA, 495BP

Local Battery Subsets:
Sidetone: 315H, 300K
Anti-sidetone: 415H, 400K



  (Est. Date Range) Earliest Reported - Latest Reported  Latest Refurb
 
 
Desk Type

Model or Part Number
Early model
D-76869 or A-1 handset mounting
  D-80370 handset
    D-85175 Transmitter
    "D85175 PAT. APP. For in U. S. A." (back); no writing on cone
    "D85175 PAT IN U. S. A. 5-4-26 PAT APP FOR"(back); PROPERTY OF AMERICAN TEL & TEL CO (on cone); "May '27" (side)

  D-80510 Receiver
  "PROPERTY OF AMERICAN TEL & TEL CO" (on receiver cap)

D-85837 handset
  Transmitter FEB '28
  D-85836 receiver
 
  E1A handset (no 129A condenser inside transmitter assembly) including H3A cord (no metal cord restraint). "Some of the handles may be marked D-80370."

  D3G mounting cord (no metal cord restraint)                   AT&T Spec 4810, December, 1927
  D3H mounting cord (requires D-86917 cord fastener)       AT&T Spec 4810

  H3A handset cord (no metal cord restraint)
  H3B handset cord (requires D-86917 cord fastener when used with A1, A2 or A3 handset mounting)
**********************************************************************************

Round Base-- B1A (manual), B1B (dial), 102, 202 hand tel. set
  ORIGINALLY EQUIPPED with 2H-type dial (or 50-H apparatus blank); D-87415 or E1B handset (with 9-line logo, H3B cord, 395-type transmitter, 557-type receiver); D3H fabric covered mounting cord.<

B-1 handset mounting (most are 1928-1930) ROUND BASE [228] - III 32
(not dated before 1929 ("329" 429 earliest found); 1928 model has holes (rather than posts) for cloth cord restraints

Hookswitch:
  2 black domed insulators push single contacts  ['28] 329 - 230
  Flat wafer to push single contacts 330 - 430
  2 wheels (similar to those found in early D1 mountings) for single contacts
  Bifurcated contacts found in some remanufactured B1s

2H dial (1928-1932)  -- with 132-type number plate (no notch)
(not dated before 1929)
  patent dates on rim of dial (1928-1929)
  patent dates on back of dial (1929-1932)  [329 B1] - III 32
**********************************************************************************

Oval base-- D1A (manual), D1B (dial), 102 or 202


  Color of                          Apparatus                            Cord
Apparatus                       Color Number                   Color Number

Black                                   --3                             --9 Regular Brown
Ivory                                   --4                             --4 Ivory
Gray                                    --5                             --5 Gray
Old Brass                             --6                             --10 Dark Brown
Statuary Bronze                    --7                            --10 Dark Brown
Oxidized Silver                      --8                            --5 Gray
Medium Gold                         --11                          --11 Gold
Dark Gold                             --12                          --11 Gold

Ref: BSP: Section C36.101, Issue 2, 7-25-35, Station Cords, All Types.


In 1934, instead of masks, cards in different colors were used:

Number Card:                       Apparatus Color:
E1263-4                                Ivory [-4]
E1263-5                                Gray  [-5]
E1263-6                                Old Brass [-6]
E1263-7                                Statuary Bronze [-7]
E1263-5                                Oxidized Silver [-8]
E1263-11                              Medium Gold [-11]
E1263-11                              Dark Gold [-12]

Ref: C37.311, Issue 3, 1-11-34, Station Number Cards and Card Holders

NOTE: More information on color 202s here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11902.msg126564#msg126564


D-1 handset mounting (1930-1939) -- OVAL BASE

  Aluminum base (1930-1936)
  "D1 WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 PAT PEND"
      With "P-224756" inside 230 430 - IV 31
      Without "P-224756" marking II 31 - I 32
  "D1 WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 1788747" I 32 - IV 34 I 35
  "D1 USA" I 35 - II 36

  Zinc base (1936-1939)
  "D1 USA" I 36 - I 39
Note: Patent numbers and "USA" are mutually exclusive.
Baseplate Cover on black D1 mounting:
  Wool [I 31] - [IV 31]
  Suede [I 32]


Hookswitch:
  Single Contacts
  With Dummy contact spring on right  430 - I 31
  No dummy contact spring on right  I 32
  Bifurcated contact springs

Dial--Black Sets (As originally furnished)
4H dial (1930-1938)

  Painted case (1930-1934)
  Manufacturing date stamp changed from month to quarter to Roman numeral for quarter  by  before I 31

  PATENT DATES ON BACK: AUG 24 15 DES MAY 7 18 SEPT 13 21
  230
  ==OR==
  PATENT NUMBERS ON BACK 1151541 DES 52009 1390679
  I 32 - II 34


  Parkerized case III 34 - II 38

  PATENT NUMBERS ON BACK "1151541 DES 52009 1390679"
 
  132-style notched # plate (1930-1934) (Undated)
  Without Z [230]
  With Z [I 32] - [III 34?]

  Experimental all celluloid plate II 33 - III 34
 
  149 Type # plate (1934-1938)
    149A
  No date
   date on back II 34
  date on front I 35 - IV 37

  149B II 34 - I 38
  No date
   date on back
  date on front II 35 - I 38

   149E III 37

Dial for color sets:
  4H with matching case and finger wheel (1930- c.1937)
  (4HB-7 for example had statuary bronze finger wheel and statuary bronze case)
  4J (1937)  II 37
  On 4J-type dials "the finger wheel, finger stop and card holder are of stainless steel...and the dial casing is white enameled."
  (BSP Section C34.101, Issue 3, 3-15-37. Station dials, 2,4 and 5 Types, Description and Use. "Reissued to include the 4J type and 5 type dials." >NOTE: The 5-type dials discussed are the 5E and 5H-types. The 5J dial was apparently not yet manufactured.)

  Note: the 4J dial was used only on certain color sets; metallic colors continued to use 4H dials with matching finger wheels.

 
Handset for B- and D-type mountings

  D-87415 (equivalent to E1B)

  E-Type (Dates are only on transmitter and receiver (but not the handle) until 1934)
       E1B (has 395-type xmtr) (1928-1935)
            395 transmitter (PROPERTY OF AMERICAN TEL & TEL CO (on cone) JUNE 1928 - NOV    '28

             395B transmitter 228 -11/35 6/36
              Date stamped in red FEB '31
             Date stamped in blue FEB '31, JUNE '31, SEPT '31, JAN '32
 
        E1E (has 625A xmtr) (1935-1939) - 3 27 39
             625A xmtr..[date on 129A condenser]  I 35 II 35 - I 38
                    newly manufactured
                          2 screws for 129A cond II 36 - III 37
                           3 rivets for 129A I 38
                     converted from 395B  [9/37?] (date on F1 unit; original dated April '30 as 395B)  

  557-type Receiver 228 - IV 40
  557 (PROPERTY OF AMERICAN TEL & TEL CO on cap)
  557B
  Plain cap

  no groove handle (1928-1937)
     Black Bakelite
            unpainted
            painted various colors          -[II 34]
     Brown Bakelite
            Painted various colors

     6-line logo with patent dates (same info as D-87415 hs) [JUN '29 xmtr on 329 B1)
                           Western Electric
                             PAT IN USA
                                 -------[DATES]
                                 -------[DATE] DESIGN
                             PATS APPLIED FOR
                             E1


  9-line logo with patent dates [??] - [FEB '31]*
                                    TRADEMARK
                               Western Electric
                               REG US PAT OFF
                                   PAT IN USA
                           9 15 22    11 10 25   9 22 26
                                 1 3 22 DESIGN
                               PAT APPLIED FOR
                                             E1
                               MADE IN USA


  5-line logo
                            TRADE MARK
                           Western Electric
                          REG US PAT OFF
                                   E1
                            MADE IN USA


  red patent numbers inside *[MAY '31] - [MAR '32]
   PAT IN USA 1425977 1560768 1601060 1719645 DES 60180

  white pat. numbers inside [5/34]

  mfr. date inside  834 435 636 - 11 02 37

  1939 logo

  grooved handle (1935-1939) 135 (1/35) - 3 27 39

  no groove caps (1928-1935)  [228] - [JUNE 31]
  wide groove caps (1932-1934)  [SEPT 31] [Jan '32] - 934 (9/34)
  thin groove caps (1935-1939)
  Date stamped in green inside rec. cap 3 34 - 9 35
  >Date stamp on inside of snuff catcher (mouthpiece)

  F-type
      F1A handset found on original I 39 manual 202A-3F

  Refurbished black 202s
        Many 202s reissued from the WE repair shops from 1939 through the 1950s have F-type handsets. Many have 5H dials and new cords.

Handset Cord
  Fabric Jacket
      H3B (1928-1936) 131 - I 37
      H3C (1936-1957)
  other replacement cords--see 302 section above

Mounting Cord
  Fabric Jacket
      D3H  428  II 32
      D3AK IV 48
      D3AN (Wartime Restrictions) 1943
      D4N
      D4S
      D4T (with 283A plug)
      D4U
           -9 (brown) IV 37 - III 48
           -4 (ivory) - I 56
      D4W (with 283-type plug)
      D4AL (Wartime Restrictions--cotton covered conductors (1942-1945?) - III 44

  Other jacket
      D3AA - I 46
      D4AN  I 47  IV 48 - 52
      D4AR (with 283-type plug) III 51 - 54

M1 jumper
  Fabric M1E
  Rubber

Switch Hook
  Single contacts
  Twin contacts (bifurcated)


Continentals and Imperials: 1955-1956--Conversions only. Some Imperials had ivory Tenite handsets. Most handsets, however were black Bakelite, painted to match phone.
 
  Imperial
---gold or silver
  Continental..--ivory, pekin red or green
  Handset F-type-
  F1A
  F4A
  Converted from F1 type [1/55] - [1/56]
  Newly manufactured without holes for rec. contacts 114 (11/54)
  Dial
    4J, 5J--Usually with transparent finger wheels. Some green sets have brushed aluminum finger wheels. White casings.
    6D--transparent finger wheel and white casing.
     >Note: may also have black case dial such as 5H that has been painted to match the phone color.





Hanger type--mounts on side of desk or on wall


101/201 (C-type handset mounting) 430 I 32 - II 35
  39A Dial Mounting
  2H-type dial
  4H-type dial
211/212(G-type handset mtg)(1936-1976?) 8/80
  With 41A Dial Mounting IV 36 I 37*
  With 43A Dial Mounting
  G1 stamped on back IV 36  I 37*
  G1 on front
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 12, 2014, 01:36:38 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM

6A: ..........................................................3-52................3-70
      plain finger stop..................................3-52....................4-53*
      6 stamped on finger stop
................*11-54...................3-70
6D..with P-344837 clear finger wheel.............6-53.................5-55



The range for 6D dials with clear FW may be extended to at least November 1955.
I have a 6D 8-55 with 6-stamped FS and 164A III-55 no Z, and sold a 6D 11-55 w/ 164A IV55 no Z.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 12, 2014, 06:00:45 PM
Quote from: paul-f on April 14, 2014, 01:54:17 PM
Adding 149B II 34, 150B III 38, P-340016 I 54 and 164A IV 75 ...

Number Plate:
149-type.............................1934-38........II 34................I 38*
150-type.............................1938-53
Square D.....................................*III 38.............II 40
Rounded D, with Z........................III 40..............II 53

No Z...........................................III 53......IV 53

P-340016............................1952-54 (Black dot)
With Z....................................... ..I 52.................II 53*
No Z.......................................
.....*IV 53..................I 54

164-type....................................
.............II 54........IV 75

Still need II 38 and III 53 (black dot).

I do believe that I have the missing dotted plate of III 53 without Z, because it is listed in a similar table that I have kept, but I just need to locate this plate...  so hold on.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 12, 2014, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 12, 2014, 06:00:45 PM
Quote from: paul-f on April 14, 2014, 01:54:17 PM
Adding 149B II 34, 150B III 38, P-340016 I 54 and 164A IV 75 ...

Number Plate:
149-type.............................1934-38........II 34................I 38*
150-type.............................1938-53
Square D.....................................*III 38.............II 40
Rounded D, with Z........................III 40..............II 53

No Z...........................................III 53......IV 53

P-340016............................1952-54 (Black dot)
With Z....................................... ..I 52.................II 53*
No Z.......................................
.....*IV 53..................I 54

164-type....................................
.............II 54........IV 75

Still need II 38 and III 53 (black dot).

I do believe that I have the missing dotted plate of III 53 without Z, because it is listed in a similar table that I have kept, but I just need to locate this plate...  so hold on.

Ok, it's located on a beautiful Oct. 1953 ivory 304 with all dates matching including almost new looking (but washed) silk cords.  The 6D dial of this plate is dated 10-53. The phone came from Redford, MI.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 12, 2014, 06:46:39 PM
WOW :o A real beauty!!
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 13, 2014, 10:59:34 AM
A recent 51AL acquisition. I've never seen dates like this on one let alone a late date of what I believe to be 4/40 (last repair date) on a #337 transmitter. Also the back of the #2 dial has 841R which I believe means repaired on 8/41. Interesting, figured Poplar1 and/or Bill G would be interested. What's sad on this stick is it appears someone cut both the line and receiver cords right at the base. From what I can tell, these cords are in almost new condition, at least what remains of them. They are original W.E. cords as the strain reliefs remain.

----------------

EDIT:  At BDM's request, this post was merged into this topic. The original topic title of this post was "Curious dates on a 51AL #337 transmitter"
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 13, 2014, 10:20:58 PM
We can extend the range for 6D dials with clear FW by another month (is 11-55 now).
I have an Imperial with a 6D stamped 6 dated 12-55. It has a 164A IV:55 number plate.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 01:54:24 AM
I also have a 6D 12-53 with plain FS, clear FW, dotted plate IV53 on a green 302 2-54.

This moves the latest date from 10-53 to 12-53 for the 6D with plain FS.


UPDATE: found another one:
6D 1-54 with plain FS, clear FW, dotted plate IV:53, found on old rose 302 1-54

This moves the latest date from 10-53 (in table) to 1-54 for the 6D with plain FS.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 02:13:28 AM
found a younger colored Tenite F1 handset:  10-53 old rose


Thermoplastic:
                   Color................................... ......5-12-41......8-53

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 02:26:05 AM
This also moves the latest date for colored 302 telephones to 1-54 (old rose-16) and 2-54 (green-19)

Color................[1941]................1949..............................10/53
         NOTE: Color thermoplastic 302s were made c. 1941 then c. 1949-1954


Note: The resumption of color 302s was announced in BLR v27, p.43 (January 1949) in a short paragraph:
QuoteColored Telephone Sets Production has been resumed on colored telephone sets of the combined type, with the ivory color to be available first and old rose, gray-green, dark blue, and Pekin red to follow shortly. These colors are mixed with powdered plastic before molding. The four metallic colors, statuary bronze, dark gold, oxidized silver, and old brass will be produced by finishes applied in Western Electric's distribution house shops. Colored sets will be available initially in the Nos. 302, 304, 305 and 306 sets, and later in the 354 set.

I have an ivory plastic housing dated '12 20 48 3' which confirms this.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 02:31:16 AM
Is the handset also 2-54?

Quote from: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 02:26:05 AM
This also moves the latest date for colored 302 telephones to 1-54 (old rose-16) and 2-54 (green-19)



       Color................[1941]................1949..............................10/53
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 02:41:27 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 02:31:16 AM
Is the handset also 2-54?

Quote from: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 02:26:05 AM
This also moves the latest date for colored 302 telephones to 1-54 (old rose-16) and 2-54 (green-19)



       Color................[1941]................1949..............................10/53
No, the handset for some reason is older on that phone:  "72"  which means, I suppose, July 1952.

PS: the youngest green Tenite handset I have is "8-53" on a 9-53 green 302.  Strange that the younger phone has an older handset, was perhaps replaced on that otherwise pretty well date-matched phone.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 02:55:05 AM
Perhaps an Imperial with Tenite handset will reveal a later example than the 10-53 rose one...

There may be a gap in the 6D dials between the final color 302s (early 1954?)  and the start of Imperials/Continentals (1955?). So far, there are none listed between 1-54 (latest plain finger stop)  and 8-55 (marked finger stop).

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 03:07:54 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 02:55:05 AM
Perhaps an Imperial with Tenite handset will reveal a later example than the 10-53 rose one...

There may be a gap in the 6D dials between the final color 302s (early 1954?)  and the start of Imperials/Continentals (1955?). So far, there are none listed between 1-54 (latest plain finger stop)  and 8-55 (marked finger stop).

oh, I do have one of those too. That's right, I forgot.  It has a 7-55 Ivory Tenite handset. That's where I found the 12-55 6D.  I believe the H3P handset cord is also 1955, and has a D4U I-56 mounting cord.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 03:48:29 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 03:07:54 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 02:55:05 AM
Perhaps an Imperial with Tenite handset will reveal a later example than the 10-53 rose one...

There may be a gap in the 6D dials between the final color 302s (early 1954?)  and the start of Imperials/Continentals (1955?). So far, there are none listed between 1-54 (latest plain finger stop)  and 8-55 (marked finger stop).

oh, I do have one of those too. That's right, I forgot.  It has a 7-55 Ivory Tenite handset. That's where I found the 12-55 6D.  I believe the H3P handset cord is also 1955, and has a D4U I-56 mounting cord.

I can do even better (in terms of color), not quite by date.  I have a "3-55" Peking Red Tenite F1 hand set ! If you want to track individual colors too. It was found on a 4-53 Peking Red 302, for whatever reason.  Perhaps they made those handsets for the Peking red Continentals in 1955?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 14, 2014, 06:12:30 PM
Dave I see no given dates for the 684BA sub/network set listed. I have one dated III 36. I'm sure there are much higher ones but figure we gotta start somewhere.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 06:43:29 PM
Quote from: BDM on May 14, 2014, 06:12:30 PM
Dave I see no given dates for the 684BA sub/network set listed. I have one dated III 36. I'm sure there are much higher ones but figure we gotta start somewhere.
What does that date reflect?  One date alone is probably not very useful, only for, say, the chassis date. These were continually upgraded well into the 1950s, but also newly manufactured.  It was introduced probably around 1931 to replaced the 534BA. In the field you find many older bases that were overpainted and re-equipped with any which part was over-aged or defective.

A 1950s 684BA resembled a 1930s only in its function and outside shape. The original equipment of 1935 was  a 78JA ringer w/ 36A+37A gongs,    COND 194A, 146C coil.

PS: (updated typos and date of introduction)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 14, 2014, 06:56:14 PM
Very true. The ringer is dated 11/40. The network coil is III-36 as well as the base. The condenser is wrapped in thin cardboard. Probably useless info on these subsets unless you suspect a very late or early stamped set. I have several I need to look at. Funny thing on this one is I know where it came from. It came from a home built in the 1920s in Grosse Pointe Farms, MI. It was in a friends home mounted up under the stair case which was the utility room. I noticed it back in the late 80s and they allowed me to remove it. It was no longer connected into the house system but left there for whatever reason. The line circuits from the box went to the main connection block where they had obviously been cut many years prior. It's one of two network boxes I own that I know the history on :)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 07:27:10 PM
The "B" in 684BA indicates a high impedance ringer, such as the 78JA or the B1A type used in 302s. So most of the time, but not always, a 684BA is a conversion--i.e., it started out as a 684A  or a 584A with a low impedance 78A ringer--and has been updated with 302-style parts.

Northern Electric 684-BX is electrically equivalent to a WE 684BA, but has a better layout. Rather than recycle 584As and 684As, they completely redesigned the chassis so that the ringer could be mounted with the coils vertical and the gongs at the bottom. WE, on the other hand, designed a bracket (for the newer style condenser and B1A ringer) that required the ringer to be mounted horizontally.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 07:45:42 PM
Various WE/NE 584-type and 684-type subsets.
Not shown: original 684BA with 78JA ringer.

584As were manufactured starting in 1930*. These were sidetone subsets with 46C induction coils.
(*Ref: A. T. &T.'s Specifications 3852, Supplement C, May, 1930.)

The anti-sidetone circuit was introduced c. 1931. (This required 4 conductors from the subset to a 202, for example.)  146C induction coils, as shown in the photos, were provided in anti-sidetone subsets, such as the 684A,  and wall phones such as the 1653A.

101-type induction coils, developed for 302s, started appearing in 684As c. 1935. One of the early 101 coils is shown in the last picture (III 1936).
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 09:14:55 PM
Here is a 684BA that was (probably) converted from another 684-type (overpainted) around 1936 (see early 101A II-36) and again in 1948 (195A IV-47, B1A 10-38 I-48-R on coils).


The 684BA that poplar1 showed has a "red-stripe ringer" with the special cores that had a lower impedance.  Is that a 1941 date on that ringer?  I didn't know they already made those so early.  I have seen them primarily in the 302s of the 1950s.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 09:23:48 PM
There are many red-stripe ringers in 1941 302s.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 09:26:25 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 14, 2014, 09:23:48 PM
There are many red-stripe ringers in 1941 302s.
ok. thanks.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 14, 2014, 09:33:10 PM
I think it would be good to create a new subforum section called perhaps "Telephone part identification and dating".
There is such a section for telephone tools, but nothing for telephone apparatus itself.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 17, 2014, 03:13:19 PM
This 584-A was made in 330 (March, 1930):

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 17, 2014, 03:13:19 PM
This 584-A was made in 330 (March, 1930):
Nice.  The 584 showed up in the Specification only in June 30, three months later, Suppl. 4566-B, 4588-A
Condenser was freshly made in 2-30 it seems.  The ringer is a 78-A ?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 18, 2014, 01:25:54 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 17, 2014, 03:13:19 PM
This 584-A was made in 330 (March, 1930):
Nice.  The 584 showed up in the Specification only in June 30, three months later, Suppl. 4566-B, 4588-A
Condenser was freshly made in 2-30 it seems.  The ringer is a 78-A ?

Poplar1 pointed out that he has a Spec that mentions the 584 in May 1930, which is a month before the formal description in 4566-B.  When I stated 'only in' I meant 'not until' to point out that his sample is a really early one, and may make a good reference point for the actual starting production date.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 18, 2014, 08:29:01 PM
302 Baseplates --Estimated Date Range:

With 4 holes for Ringer Mount........IV 36- Feb. 1939

A        Flat, with cardboard pad under condenser.....IV 36............11/37
B       1 boss for redesigned condenser mount.........11-37............8-38
C       Add 2nd boss for inverted induction coil..........9-38.............2-39


Without holes for Ringer Mount.......3/39--1954

D    2 bosses.......................................................3-39............12-39
E    Add 3rd boss for condenser.............................1-40.............c. 1951 4-52
F    With  steel ringer mount.................................10-52.............2/54
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 18, 2014, 08:39:32 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 18, 2014, 08:29:01 PM
302 Bases--Est. Date Range:
....

Note the ivory housing mounting code on one of the housings:  H1 (circle) (three bars)
c.f.:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11868.msg126294#msg126294
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 18, 2014, 09:54:06 PM
On Ebay, a #337 with a later test date. Notice what looks to be an original #323 transmitter tag

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 18, 2014, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: BDM on May 18, 2014, 09:54:06 PM
On Ebay, a #337 with a later test date. Notice what looks to be an original #323 transmitter tag



Appears to be another wartime conversion, when there were shortages of new anything. Anyone have one with a later test date?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on May 19, 2014, 01:22:54 AM
Curious to know. BTW this topic is now a sticky. Lots of good info in this thread, thanks Terry.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 24, 2014, 01:59:30 PM
I just found a Tenite plastic F1 handset in Old Rose color which is dated Feb. 1949.
It is marked   "2/ 9", oddly, just like the "3/ 9" set already in the table, they didn't use a slash later in those designations.

This extends the earliest hollow-core plastic handset found by one month.


Quote from: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM

    Thermoplastic:
                   Color
                         Solid Core...........................5-12-41
                         Hollow Core.........................3/ 9(3/49)...........8-53.............7-55


Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 29, 2014, 12:38:18 PM
[size=14pt]300- Series Telephone Sets[/size]:

Model or Part Number:
Earliest:     Latest:         
Reported:  Reported:

302 Tel Set:
       Metal:
           Black
IV 36........6-46

           Color
              Oxidized Silver, Statuary Bronze, etc (Painted)
*12/40*

              Ivory, etc. (Painted)
*10/39......9/40*
              (New, painted metal Ivory, Rose, Blue, Gray-Green, Pekin Red 302s no longer made as of 1-2-41 per C30.111, Iss 4--replaced by thermoplastic.)

      Plastic:
         Black: 10/41--12/52
              Furnished with 5H dial ......
10/41.....8/52

              Furnished with 6A dial
..............12/52

         Color
1941......2/54
         NOTE: Color thermoplastic 302s were made c. 1941-2 then c. 1949-1954.
         WR-C30.011, Issue 1, 8-5-42 indicates that "the manufacture of colored station sets has been discontinued."
         "The resumption of color 302s was announced in BLR v27, p.43 (January 1949)"
         NOTE: In 1955, the WE repair shops remanufactured 302s in the 500 colors, using molded color thermoplastic housings and painted handsets.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Housing:
      Small Plungers With Tel Set Mtg Code on outside over mouse hole:
                 "H1-3"
IV 36.......5-37*

                 "H1"
*7-37....11-37

      Large plungers
                H-1 stamped outside
11-37.......7-38

                H-1 stamped inside
7-38.........2/54

Hand Hold:
     Metal (painted to match phone):
         With "vents" for ringer
IV36.......10-37
     
         Without "vents"
10-37........1942*

     Plastic
*1946......1954


Spade lugs for hookswitch and condenser:

     SOLDERED:
             hookswitch
4-37.............3/39

             condenser
4-37.............1/39
             jumper
..........................
     CRIMPED:
            hookswitch
4-395/39

            condenser
2/39

            jumper
     
Baseplate:
With 4 holes for Ringer Mount........1936- Feb. 1939
        Flat....Note: Cardboard pad under condenser
IV36...........11-37 

        1 boss for capacitor mount
11-37..........8-38

        Add 2nd boss for inverted ind. coil.
9-38.............2-39

Without holes for Ringer Mount
       2 bosses
3-39............12-39

       Add 3rd boss for condenser
1-40..............4-51*

With new steel ringer mount
*10-52..........2/54

Ringer:  B1A or B1AL
       RINGER DATES:
            no dates
[4-37 set]....[4-38* set]

            vermilion star, no date
[4-38]*

            stamped in black on frame between gongs
4-38*

            date stamped  on ringer coil
*6-38.......11-55

       GONGS:
       40A and 40B brass gongs
       41A and 41B gongs
             Brass
             Steel--painted black
S-1-45........S-4-45

            1 brass + 1 painted steel
1946

             Steel--unpainted
10/51........10-52

Feet:
             Rivets
4-37............IV 37

             Screws
10-37--

             Wool (on some sets)
10/46........5/48
   

Handset:

     Bakelite:
             Grooveless:
                    Black
IV 36............11/16/37
                    Brown(painted)...1939-1954
                             Solid Core
*59 (5/39).............21 (2/41)*
                             Hollow
*99 (9/49) ...........124 (12/54)*

             Grooved (Black)...1937-55
                    Solid Core                       
                           Date stamped in xmtr cavity
6-12-37.........1-9-39
                           Date code embossed in handle, under receiver cap
19 (1/39)......75 (7/45)*
                           Not dated on handle
[10/45 xmtr and rec units]
                    Hollow Core
*46 (4/46).......1955

    Thermoplastic:
                   Color
                         Solid Core
10-30-40............5-12-4111-3-41*

                         Hollow Core
2/ 9 (2/49)..........7-55

                   Black
*........................*

    F1 transmitter unit
IV 34...........1-73

    HA1 receiver unit
1937............4-56

    Black Plastic Caps
6-58P..........4-60P

Dial:
4H
230..............II 38*
     
5H:.......finger wheel and case are painted to match phone
     Phenol pulse pawl ("Silent"), W terminal by governor, single contacts:
III 35...............I 38

     Phenol pulse pawl, W terminal next to Y, twin contacts
II 38

     Regular pulse pawl, W by Y terminal, twin contacts:
II 38...........9-52 12-52

     Brass color terminal screws
IV 36..........II 40*

     Steel color screws
*IV 40

     Long finger stop
IV 36........6-44*
     Short finger stop
*H-3-46...9-52 12-52
     
#10 Catalog (1939): 5J dials with white enamel cases and stainless steel "finger wheels, finger stops and card holder frames" are shown  for ivory, pekin red, gray green, dark blue and old rose 302s.  302s in old brass, statuary bronze, oxidized silver and dark gold continue to have 5H dials with painted finger wheels.
     
5J ..............1937-1952
    with Stainless Steel finger wheel, number card holder, and finger stop...
IV 39..............IV 40*

    with P-298941 transparent finger wheel and nickel silver finger stop...
                 C30.011, Issue 4, 1-2-41, "Colored Station Sets"
II 41................6/42     

    with P-372629 transparent finger wheel....
                (BSP Addendum C30.011, Issue 1, 12-15-47)
4/47 ............12/52
>>>>>>>>1949 ad shows 302s in 9 colors, all with transparent finger wheels

6A: ............with black painted aluminum finger wheel and black case:
      plain finger stop
3-52....................4-53*

      6 stamped on finger stop
*11-54................3-70

"The 6D dial, which supersedes the 5JB, should be used for replacement purposes on plastic and painted sets  except those in the 500 series." C30.011 Issue 6, Dec. 1953
6D:..........
    With P-344837 clear finger wheel, white case, unmarked finger stop
    5-53...................1-54*

    With P-19B524 clear finger wheel, white case, and "6" stamped on finger stop
*8-55................12-55  (Available IV 54)

The P-19B524 finger wheel was also used on 7C dials for 500-series sets. If a P-19B524 was not available, a P-344837 could be used.



Number Plate:
149-type
II 34.........I 38*

150-type
         150A (numbers and "operator")
*IV 49........I 51

         150B (letters and numbers):
             Square D
*III 38.....II 40

             Rounded D, with Z
III 40..............II 53

             No Z
III 53......IV 53
         

P-340016... (Black dot)
           With Z
I 52........II 53

           No Z
III 53 ....I 54

164A   (No 164As found with "Z")
I 54.....IV 75
       


Handset Cord:
302s as originally assembled had H3C, H3AA, or H3AG
Fabric jacket:
H3C
      twill weave....................1937-1941
      basket weave................1942-1957
*46.........57
           
H3P (Retractile/spring)
III 40....III 55
H3W
III 45
H3AA (Wartime Restrictions--cotton covered conductors)
*I 44.......II 45
   
Other jacket:
H3H
*I 46
H3AD
II 48.....I 50 IV 50
H3AF...(spring)
II 51......57
H3AG
1952....IV 56
H3AH
I 59
H3AJ
IV 58.....IV 59
H3AR...(spring)
III 62.....67
H3AS
I 60.....62

Mounting Cord:   Original sets have D2D, D3AL, [WR], or D3AY.
Fabric jacket:
D2D
D2E (with 283B plug)
D2K--(Wartime Restrictions--cloth conductors)
IV 43
D3AL
*III 46.......52
D3AM (with 283B plug)
D3AT (Wartime Restrictions--cloth conductors)
I 45

Other jacket:
D3AY
*54.........56
D3BF
I 58
D3BK
II 59.......60
D3BP
61
________________________________________ _____________
251 Plastic
.............4-53

354..(M3 tel set mtg) .........1946-1956
             Black
1/48.............4/56
             Ivory

410-AC (2-line set)
1-42.......................12-54

5302(conversions only).......1955-'62

Multi-line 44x, 46x....1938-1954
       Metal 440, 460
       Plastic 440, 444, 460, 464
               5H dial
               6A dial

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 01, 2014, 10:33:19 PM
In this auction, http://www.ebay.com/itm/351079990854, of an ivory 302, the data show that it was made in the first quarter of 1953, and it also had a 5J dial dated 12-52, just like the other earlier 53 color sets I have/observed. I still have not seen a single phone in 1953 with a newer date for a 5J.

However that set is not all original, as it has some dates of 1955.  What I found most interesting, was what the seller claims about the handset:  The handset is an F1 and marked BELL SYSTEM, MANUFACTURED BY, WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY, F1 on the handle.
I have not seen a 1950s Tenite handset with that inscription. AFAIK, it should read:
BELL SYSTEM
MADE BY
Western Electric
F1 *


Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 04, 2014, 12:17:02 PM
Here is an F1 handset dated 7-15-38, solid core handle, grooves, separate (5) screw terminals, and with inscription

BELL SYSTEM
MADE BY
Western Electric
F1
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: BDM on June 23, 2014, 12:02:23 PM
I have a dial in a recently acquired 302 H1, II 38 with the Phenol pulse pawl. Will get a pic up when I can.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 25, 2014, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 29, 2014, 12:38:18 PM
300- Series Telephone Sets:

Model or Part Number:
Earliest:   Latest:         



354..(M3 tel set mtg) .........1946-1956
             Black
.............4/56
             Ivory



Since the date range for the 354 wall phone is so sparse, here is an observation (auction) of a January 1948 housing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171345234643
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Induction Coils
Post by: unbeldi on July 15, 2014, 07:47:20 PM
13-Type Induction Coils
The type no. 13 and 113 induction coils were intended for use in local battery telephone sets, usually with a magneto signaling generator.

... tbc


20-Type Induction Coils
The type no. 20 induction coil was an early common battery circuit induction coils using in desk set boxes and wall-mounted subscriber sets.

... tbc


46-Type Induction Coils
The type no. 46 induction coils replaced the No. 20 coil using new manufacturing techniques, including new materials for the coil core. It was a drop-in replacement for the No. 20 coil.



introduced:1919 (acc. to Bell System history)
documented: tbd
MD: tbd
observationsearliestlatest

... tbc


120 and 146-Type Induction Coils
The No. 120 and 146 type induction coils were the anti-sidetone variants of the nos. 20 and 46 induction coils, respectively.

... tbc


101-Type Induction Coils
The 101-type induction coil was developed for use in the anti-sidetone circuit which was introduced in 1930, according to Engineering and Science in the Bell System (p.109). In particular it was slated for the newer 634 and 684 subscriber sets and already found use as early as 1932 or so in the early development models leading to the 302. However, the subsets delivered at that time still used the 146-type coil.

The first mention of the 101-type induction coil appears to be in BSP C31.111, Issue 1 (June 31), stating that "... a new type closed core induction coil (101 type) will be furnished in some new sets."  In the 1933 Issue 1 of BSP Section C31.401 it is described as the 101A., but in 1935, Catalog No. 9 still listed the part number as No. 101 (without suffix letter).

Until ~Q1 1937, the units were labeled by stamps on the side of the wire spool, but later they were stamped on the outer wrapping layer of the coil, first only the date (II 37), later also the part number.

Early 104A induction coils used a non-inductive winding as resistance for loop balance in the AST circuit, while later versions used an external carbon film resistor.




introduced:1930 (acc. to Bell System history)
documented:June 1931 and Nov. 1933 (BSP)
MD: 1970s?
observationsearliestlatest
1011932 (in 302 prototype)1935(catalog) ?
               Edit: IV 36 and II 37 reported (wds)







101AII 36II 69CB (634, 684, (5)302, 332, misc)
101BII 38II 55CB (304)
103A(1933)?CB (629A)
104ALB (634YD, 307, 331)
   non-inductive winding??
   external resistor?II 57IV 63(331B set was made into the late 1970s)



This is a start ... I am sure collectors here can quickly expand upon the range for each one of these.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 23, 2014, 02:54:54 PM
Updated date ranges for D-1 handset mountings:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALUMINUM MOUNTINGS:
(1930-1936)

Outside: D1, WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 PAT PEND
Inside: P-224756 + diamond + date.............................................................................430...........III 31IV 31

Outside: D1,  WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 PAT PEND
Inside: die stamp + date...............................................................................................II 31.........I 32

>Outside: D1, WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 1788474....................I 32..........IV 34

Outside: D1 USA...................................................................................,.......................I 35..........II 36


ZINC MOUNTINGS:
(1936-1939)
Outside: D1 USA...................................................................................,.......................I 36...........IV 37



Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 23, 2014, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 23, 2014, 02:54:54 PM
Updated date ranges for D-1 handset mountings:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALUMINUM MOUNTINGS:
(1930-1936)

Outside: D1, WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 PAT PEND
Inside: P-224756 + diamond + date.............................................................................430...........III 31



I have one of these diamond ornamented D1s that is dated  IV 31
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 25, 2014, 12:09:31 PM
Do we have any early, or starting, dates for the 101B induction coil or for the 304 telephone set?

By 1954 the 304 BSP was already at Issue 5. C63.412.
Issue 4 appears dated  5-15-47.
I have a 304 set that has a date of I 46 on the induction coil.
According to a post on the Forum, WR-63.411 (Telephone Sets Converted to 302 Types, Connections), Issue 1, 4-23-43 does not mention 304s at all.

Anyone have an earlier version of the BSP, hopefully Issue 1, or an earlier telephone set?

When did the 101B induction coil appear in telephones or subsets?


Alright, searching the forum I found this post:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.msg106496#msg106496 It shows a telephone with a 101B coil dated 1-39.
Seems rather legit, other than the problems with the housing mismatch, so I am going to update the table here.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
Issue 3, 5-26-41
Telephone Sets, 304 Type, Connections
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 01:15:06 PM
Issue 2, C63.412, 9-1-38

C63.411 is only for 302 sets, so WR-C63.411 would not include sets converted to 304s.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 25, 2014, 01:37:54 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 01:15:06 PM
Issue 2, C63.412, 9-1-38


Do you have it?   Does it mention the 101B induction coils?
A 304 could implement the same tip-party ID circuit as we have seen in a yesterday's post of a 653-BC with a 101A coil. The set was dated 'I 39' and this prompted me to ask myself, why didn't it have a 101B coil at that time?

I am not 100% clear whether a tip-party message rate set using the 101B type circuit can be operated on the same CO equipment as a 101A-type ID circuit. But I suspect it can, because the 653-BC had only a 1000 ohm ringer, and the split coil arrangement of the B2A ringer provided a 960 ohm path to ground from the M center tap. Perhaps this was the reason for this choice of split.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
C63.412, Issue 2 does not identify the code no. for the IND in a 304, but it does show terminals RR, R, GN, C and M.

C63.233, Issue 2, 4-18-40 shows the 653BC with no M terminal on the induction coil, and only two wires for the ringer.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 25, 2014, 02:09:35 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
C63.412, Issue 2 does not identify the code no. for the IND in a 304, but it does show terminals RR, R, GN, C and M.

C63.233, Issue 2, 4-18-40 shows the 653BC with no M terminal on the induction coil, and only two wires for the ringer.

This diagram (C63.233 i2 4-18-40) could be based on either a 146 coil or on the 101A, like the diagrams prior to it that I have seen. However, we should assume it's a 101A. The one posted on the forum yesterday as found in the subset, shows the shape of the 101A and it even predates this BSP.

However, the M terminal is an indicator for a 101B. I don't recall it being used elsewhere.  I think such a set could use the high-impedance ringer as well as a low impedance type, by the reasoning I gave earlier.

Thanks for the diagram!
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Doug Rose on July 25, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
When were the first G1 Space savers made? I found one last weekend with a date of 4/13/39 on the receiver, 4/39 on the transmitter, II 39 on the inside and I 39 on the dial plate. I still thought C1s were made in the late 30s. Any ideas?....thanks....Doug
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 25, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on July 25, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
When were the first G1 Space savers made? I found one last weekend with a date of 4/13/39 on the receiver, 4/39 on the transmitter, II 39 on the inside and I 39 on the dial plate. I still thought C1s were made in the late 30s. Any ideas?....thanks....Doug

BSP Section D353.258 Issue 1 of 5-15-38, entitled Hand Telephone Sets - Hanging Type - Cording already shows the G-type handset mounting in 211, 213, and 214 sets. This is Issue 1, so the BSP for the sets themselves can't be too far apart.

BSP C32.375 Issue 2 9-25-36 discusses handset mounting adjustments and it includes the G-types already.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 04:25:19 PM
Using the center tap ("M") of the induction coil primary, and a split coil ringer, as in a 304 set, was a newer technology. The 653BC continued to use the the older method for tip party ID, as found in the 103 (D2) and 203 (D6) hand telephone sets, the 51-C desk stand, and the 553C wall set. The subsets (such as 634BC) for these sets have standard ringers and induction coils.

101-type induction coils have been found in 653A and 653BA wall sets, 684A and 684BC subsets, for example, from 1935 up. So it's not unusual to find a 101-A in a 653BC manufactured in 1939.

The "101" (not 101A or B) is shown in WE Catalog #9  (1935), page 119, in the list of induction coils. However, subsets are shown with 46C, 146B, 146C, or 101A induction coils. The 684BC (tip party ID) is shown with a 101A, the 684BA is shown with a 146C, and the 684C (no ringer) is shown with either a 101A or 146C.

Two-Party Selective Message Rate (Dial Only):
553C and 653BC are shown in Section C63.232, Issue 2, 4-18-40
103, 203, 212---------------------------C63.324, Issue 3, 10-30-36
51C and 151C---------------------------C63.374, Issue 1, 3-2-36
304---------------------------------------C63.412

203:
One side of the ringer (black) is connected to Ground. The other ringer lead (red) connects through a capacitor to L2 (tip) when on hook. When the phone is off hook, the red ringer wire connects directly to L2, bypassing the capacitor. The central office detects presence of high resistance tip to ground (through the ringer) in order to bill the tip party for the call.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 25, 2014, 05:01:38 PM
201s (C1) and 211s (G1) hand telephone sets are shown with E1 type handsets in 1936. The earliest 211s have the "G1" code stamped on the back, like the D1, rather than on the front. 41A dial mountings like yours were the only type available on G-type handset mountings in the early years. The angle of the dial was fixed. Later sets have 43A dial mountings with adjustable dial angle.

Section C32.104, Issue 1, 9-15-36
Hand Telephone Sets, Hanging Type, Description


Quote from: Doug Rose on July 25, 2014, 02:46:40 PM
When were the first G1 Space savers made? I found one last weekend with a date of 4/13/39 on the receiver, 4/39 on the transmitter, II 39 on the inside and I 39 on the dial plate. I still thought C1s were made in the late 30s. Any ideas?....thanks....Doug
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Tim Mc on July 27, 2014, 01:23:53 PM
This is a timely message since I was working on a 211 and was wondering the same thing.  This 211 is dated IV 37 on the switch assembly, has a G1 stamp on the case (hookswitch side) and a 41A dial mounting.  I assume that the front of the case is the side with the hookswitch?  The 5H dial and 150B dial plate are dated I-40.  Unfortunately not matching numbers like Doug's, but still a neat phone in original paint.  It was on kitchen duty until the 653 parts came back from the powder coater.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: rp2813 on July 31, 2014, 01:59:17 AM
The 7/38 F1 handset on the previous page causes me to wonder about my later "29" embossed F1, which has the verbiage "Manufactured By" instead of "Made By." 

Would it be correct to conclude that the different terminology depends more on which WECo facility "made"/"manufactured" it, and less on the date it rolled off the production line?

Is one type more common than the other?  I tend to think "manufactured" disappeared from all F1s at some point before WECo ceased production, but have no idea of when.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 31, 2014, 07:49:53 AM
Quote from: rp2813 on July 31, 2014, 01:59:17 AM
The 7/38 F1 handset on the previous page causes me to wonder about my later "29" embossed F1, which has the verbiage "Manufactured By" instead of "Made By." 

Would it be correct to conclude that the different terminology depends more on which WECo facility "made"/"manufactured" it, and less on the date it rolled off the production line?

Is one type more common than the other?  I tend to think "manufactured" disappeared from all F1s at some point before WECo ceased production, but have no idea of when.

I don't think we know how the difference in terms (made/manufactured) comes about, i.e. whether it relates to facilities, but it does appear that handsets made after WWII showed the shorter inscription, perhaps with some exceptions for brown handsets.

The solid-core handle also went out of style with onset of WWII, except for the brown ones.

Whenever the inscription uses the term manufactured, it also uses the long form of the company name, Western Electric Company, rather than Western Electric. The F1W handset seemed to always have used the long company name, but they didn't the use the phrase manufactured by at all.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 31, 2014, 10:02:28 AM
The solid core F1-type handsets are marked "Manufactured by Western Electric Company" more often than not. We really had to search to find even two examples marked "Made by Western Electric"---a 12/39 brown one and the 7-15-38 black one pictured.

As for the brown handsets, I'd have to disagree, based on the following sample:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11918.0


-----------BROWN BAKELITE BELL SYSTEM F-TYPE HANDSETS----------------
SOLID:
99 (9/39)    MANUFACTURED BY    on 1/40 gold 302                            F1
129(12/39) MADE BY                    on Ivory 302 3/40                           F1
10 (1/40)    MANUFACTURED BY    on Ivory 302 9/40                           F1

HOLLOW:
99 (9/49)    MADE BY                    on rose 202  r. 1952                        F1
91 (9/51)    MADE BY                    on Gold 305 6/40, refurbished 51?    F1
74 (7/54)    MADE BY                    on Ivory 202 r. 1954                        F4
124(12/54) MADE BY                    on Ivory 202                                    ?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 31, 2014, 10:13:47 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 31, 2014, 10:02:28 AM
As for the brown handsets, I'd have to disagree, based on the following sample:

I guess that's right. I struck my exception remark for brown. My compilation table doesn't support that either.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 31, 2014, 10:31:05 AM
A question perhaps remains unanswered:  Did WECo manufacture any new brown handsets from 1942-1948 ?
Is it only a coincidence, that the first example of those samples of brown handsets with hollow core is from 1949, the year that production of colored 302s resumed.
The brown handset of my ivory 304 was made before the start of the war, and so was the housing, but the 5J dial is from 4-47.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 31, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
All new Western Electric color sets were manufacture discontinued by 1942-08-05, until after the war. It's likely that brown Bakelite handsets were discontinued then, if not before, until manufacture of color sets was resumed in 1949.

By 1941-01-02, new ivory, rose, dark blue, red and green 302s had thermoplastic handsets and housings. Painted brown handsets continued to be used on special order color 202s through 1954, as well as painted metallic color (statuary bronze, etc.) 302s (refurbished at least until 1951).

Even though manufacture of color sets was temporarily discontinued in 1942, there were still some remaining in stock.

It's possible that new 5J dials were needed for repairs and dial cutovers before the 1949 resumption of manufacturing of color 302s.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 03, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
New date line for 6D dials as found on 302GR-4: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12392.msg130627#msg130627 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12392.msg130627#msg130627)

Dial:  6D 5-53  (new earliest observation)
Dial face place: II 53  with dot and Z  (same as existing limit)

As usual, the dot pattern around the date is interesting. Two dots vertical before the year, and one above the 5.

The same set also extends the date for the H3P cord: III 55 (was II 55)
Quote
H3P (Retractile/spring)
III 40....II 55
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 07, 2014, 03:35:40 PM
Which date range were E1 handsets stamped with these beautiful patent dates in the receiver end?  I seem to recall to have seen a discussion about this on the Forum, but can't find it.

This handset is the type with five lines in the inscription, which is listed here as found as early as 5-31. I had thought these stamps were applied earlier though.
The handset was found with a receiver dated 1 31 (or I 31).

The transmitter was already a 625A/F1.

I found a thread (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2583.msg35443#msg35443) in which the red star was discussed, not conclusively by any means, but perhaps that's what I remember.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 07, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
This may very well be a 1931 handset, other than the 1935 or later 625A transmitter. I haven't documented the dates for the red patent markings, but  there were some plain handles before and possibly after these; then, the dates were stamped in green or yellow beginning around 1934.

Your handset was converted from an E1B to an E1E. This was a typical upgrade when the phone was remanufactured.  Often, the snuff catcher (mouthpiece) installed with the 625A has a groove, while the receiver cap, if original, does not.

The 5-line logo may have been adopted by 2-31, which is the latest reported date for the older logo (found on a handset with a Feb. '31 transmitter.).   So far, no 3-31 or 4-31 handsets have been reported.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 07, 2014, 04:27:30 PM
Patent # 1,719,645 was issued July 2, 1929 for "Intelligence Signaling Apparatus."

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=1719645&idkey=NONE&homeurl=http%3A%252F%252Fpatft.uspto.gov%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fpatimg.htm
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 07, 2014, 05:06:52 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 07, 2014, 04:27:30 PM
Patent # 1,719,645 was issued July 2, 1929 for "Intelligence Signaling Apparatus."

http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=1719645&idkey=NONE&homeurl=http%3A%252F%252Fpatft.uspto.gov%252Fnetahtml%252FPTO%252Fpatimg.htm

I looked that up too. It's for an improved bullet transmitter. It sets the lower bracket for dating, but the inscription places the handset after 1930. The handset was not otherwise dated, which makes it older than 1934, probably.

Since the receiver also has nice vermillion patent stamps of similar quality as the handset itself, and is dated first quarter or Jan. 1931, my impression is also that it is one of the first five-line handsets, closing that gap that you have in your chart.

The 625A transmitter adapter did not yet have a capacitor built-in and the F1 itself was of 4-36. Both caps had grooves already.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 07, 2014, 05:30:33 PM
I would prefer to use only handsets with the original dated 395B transmitters as well as original receivers and ungrooved caps when updating the table. Since the transmitter and both caps were changed on this handset, it's possible but not proven that the handset is early 1931. The original transmitter will also have the month rather than the quarter.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 08, 2014, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 07, 2014, 05:06:52 PM
The 625A transmitter adapter did not yet have a capacitor built-in and the F1 itself was of 4-36.

Turns out that this is an interesting feature, as it is not common (or is it?).

Here are pictures of the adapter piece in the 625-A transmitter assembly, the core of the structure.
There is no provision for mounting the 129A capacitor that was already standard for the bullet transmitter (395A), and certainly for other 625s.

The part number of this piece is P-216952.  However, it appears that the piece has been machined after die casting, as the part number characters have perhaps one millimeter of their lower part or baseline missing.



PS:  I am now convinced that this is a conversion 625A. Under magnification, it is evident that the inside of the unit has been 'machined out'
to yield just a ring with the threads. A new contact base plate was pressed into the ring.

So, when did they do this, whoever they is.



PS: My thinking is that such 395->625 conversions happened much later... 1940s.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 08, 2014, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 08, 2014, 08:49:15 AM
PS: My thinking is that such 395->625 conversions happened much later... 1940s.

My reasoning for this assumption is this:

The 129A capacitor had the purpose of preventing the cohering of carbon granules, which happens because of the high frequencies generated by sudden loop current changes when the hookswitch is opened or closed. The bullet transmitter had small capacitors to absorb the high frequencies. The 625A (with F1) had the condenser just the same, because at the time it probably was not evident yet that the F1 transmitter was much less susceptible to cohering. At least this is true of the later F1 transmitters, as in the 302 telephone no anti-cohering condensers were installed normally.

When 395Bs were converted to 625A in the fashion shown here, this may have already been known, and therefore no provision was made for the 129A capacitor anymore.

As said, this is hypothesis.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 08, 2014, 11:10:39 AM
In this 625A conversion, the 129A was attached with three rivets, including the two (shown in your photo) that hold the outer transmitter contact.  A later version used two brass screws.

There appears to be a 1931 date for the original 395B.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 08, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Are you sure someone didn't remove the 129A? Notice the extra clearance between the rivets and the phenol insulator.

All 395Bs and 625As I've seen have a 129A. The reason it was not on the 395A or D-85715 transmitters was that it was installed inside the A-type handset mounting instead.

Also, WE didn't abandon the idea. All F1W-type handsets have capacitors across the transmitter.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 08, 2014, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 08, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
Are you sure someone didn't remove the 129A? Notice the extra clearance between the rivets and the phenol insulator.
There is no evidence of removal. The rivets are pristine.  No scratching or scars from a tool are evident.

Quote
All 395Bs and 625As I've seen have a 129A. The reason it was not on the 395A or D-85715 transmitters was that it was installed inside the A-type handset mounting instead.

Also, WE didn't abandon the idea. All F1W-type handsets have capacitors across the transmitter.
I know those (all?) do have the capacitor for some reason.  My assumption, perhaps wrong, is that some independent telephone suppliers didn't shunt the transmitter during dialing, as WE had done for a long time already, so those transmitters are subject to a lot of HF.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 10, 2014, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 08, 2014, 11:21:00 AM
...
Also, WE didn't abandon the idea. All F1W-type handsets have capacitors across the transmitter.

Here is a reason for not abandoning the idea of the capacitor:

BSP C32.203 Issue 5 1-20-44 Hand Sets - Description, page 6

(2) F type hand sets used at sidetone stations should be equipped with a 129F condenser to prevent packing. This condenser is brigded across the transmitter unit and mounted beneath the transmitter contact springs. The 129F condenser may be required at anti-sidetone stations adjacent to radio broadcasting stations to prevent interference from the radio transmitter. F1A hand sets used with 332 and 334 type telphone sets also require the 129F condenser.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on September 04, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
Anyone have any new info on dates? For example:

Metal 302 later than 6/46
Black Plastic 302 after 12/52
Color 302 > 2/54
251 (AB1) > 4/53

5H dial > 9/52 12/52
5J dial > 12/52
6A dial before 3/52
# plate dated II 38


(> means later than)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on September 04, 2014, 08:29:07 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on September 04, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
Anyone have any new info on dates? For example:


I can offer you an  F2 transmitter element dated 8/55 in a 635B transmitter also dated 8-55.
Anyone seen a later one?

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts - Section 1 of 2
Post by: poplar1 on September 15, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
                                                    "Big Ten" Telephone Sets

                                            Rotary       =   500,   554, Princess, Trimline Desk, Trimline Wall
                                            Touch-Tone= 2500, 2554, Princess, Trimline Desk, Trimline Wall


                                                                Manufacture Dates     Refurb or Conversion Date
                                                                Earliest - Latest          Latest      
                                                                   Observed              Observed
500 Type Desk Set

Model and date stamp (black ink)
     Between Front Feet             
                  "500"                 10/49 - 3/51
                  "501".                  2/51
     Below ringer volume control                     9/51 - 8-66
              M/YY or MM/YY
              M-YY or MM-YY                              6-57   3-58       
     Between vents                                        1-67 - 10-73
     Left side                                                1-74 3-74 - 86072

Refurb date stamp
     Vermilion Ink                                                                                                                R1172C
     Sticker   12-75

Dial
     7A (Black only)                                     6/50 I - 1/53 I   2/53 I
   
     7C (P-19B524 open center finger wheel)*  5/54 - 5-65    6-65          7C-60 12-62 on 500 D-60 R11-67
      7D-type (Black only--black finger wheel)
           "7D"             1-53 I   - 6-53 I
           "7D-3"             10/54 - 10/64         9-79 (refurbished 500DM)
      9C (P11E007 finger wheel)                     
         9C-x (x=insert color code)                  1- 2-65 - 6-66
                  9C-60 (Lt. Beige)                     1-65
         9C (no color code indicated)             12-67  - 4-73
      9CA                                                     
         Metal finger wheel clamp                      10-74 4-75 -3-80 5-81 6-81
         White plastic finger wheel clamp           1-82 -  83/03 83/05  84/4  5-88
    9CAM --same dial as 9CA but without number plate; used with "kits" such as 500D2M
                                                 10-78
     *Note: Refurbished sets may have 7C or 7D dials with P11E007 finger wheels                           C/D 500 10-75
      Apparatus Blanks (500C):
                95A                 6-53
                95B
                95C
           
Housing
       Logo 
            "Bell System Made by Western Electric"     
                      Rectangular                       [10-62] - [9-68]
                      Curved sides
            Bell icon + "Western Electric"        [82349] - [83164]  (American Bell)
            "AT&T"                                       est. late 1983--1990s
       Screws
           Machine screws, inserts in housing
           "Thread-forming screws", insertless housing         [9-]85
               



Last revision 9-8-15===========

The following itlalicized info was lost on 9-8-15; this this info is from a March, 2015 update.

           
Logo on handset
           Western Electric                            [3-67] - [9-68]
           Bell System Property Not for Sale   (C. 1968) - [82210]
           Bell icon + Western Electric          83123
           AT&T                                           [83313]
Ringer
       C2A                                                 11/51 - 2/53
       C4A                                                  8/53
       C4C                                             

1/16/55 The frames on all C4A ringers manufac-
             tured after January 15, 1955 are changed in design so that they
             will not interfere with the free movement of the volume-
             adjusting arm as did the earlier model. (Addendum C31.124, Issue 1, April, 1956)

Baseplate
         black                              10/49 - 12-65
         cadmium plated                8-66 - 85014
       
Feet
         Suede                            11-50 - 3-58           R81-2
         Neoprene (large)       12-58      4-59 - 12-62      RF90PA01
         Round with ribs               6-63 7-63 - 8-65 12-65
         Round smooth                9-65 - 86072

Network
        425A
        425B
        425E
        4228
        4293
     
                                                                                                                                                                                  
--------------------------------------------------                                                       
BLACK                                                                                                                                                                                                         
           500                               10/49 - 11/50
           500B  (equalizer)
           500T  (terminal block)      3/51 - 1/52   

           500D                   3/52 6/52 -  4-75
                    7-type dial            4-56 -  10-64         R872C
                    9-type dial            2/65 - 4-75       1-72
       
           500DM                                                        R83-5
                    7-type dial
                        metal finger wheel                        500DM 9-79 WN                                                              
                        P11E007 finger wheel
                    9-type dial                     
           CS500DM 1-PTY          82344 - 83264
           500M                            3-60
           500MM                        82057 - 82190                   R84-5
           500D2M Tel. Set Mounting                                    R81-4B
           

      Dial
              Metal Finger Wheel
                   7A                          6/50 I - 1/53 I
                   7D-3                       10/54 - 9-64
              Clear plastic  Finger Wheel
                   9C-3                         2-65 -  3-66
                   9C                          11-70 - 3-73
                   9CA                    9-75      4-76 - 83/05
                      P11E009 finger wheel
                      With Bell icon        82344
             
           
   
      Dial number plate
          "OPERATOR" in semi-circle     9/50
          "OPERATOR" in small font    10/50
          "OPERATOR" in larger font

      Handset
             G1A                     6-49 10/50 - 11-64  1-66
                 --Cord restraints molded in handle      1-56
                 --Cord restraints part of cup
             G3A                      11-64
             G15A
      Cords
             Handset Cord
                    H4BA            III 50  -- I 51
                    H4BD (semi-retractile)                    (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                    H4BF            IV-53 - II 56
                    H4BG                                             (C36.101 Issue 12, April, 1953)
                    H4BH (retractile)                             (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)

                    H4CJ  (spring)
                    H4CL             [This is a skinny pvc jacketed cord, straight]     
                    H4DU (modular)
                           clear   [4-78]
                           black
                             
             Mounting Cord
                    D3BB        II-    III 50 - 54   57 (25'0'')
                    D3BD (retractile)                                      (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                    D3BE
                    D3BN                62
                    Clear hardwired                                                on 9-75 refurb set
                    Clear modular
      Plungers
                 Black               4-56 - 10-58
                 Clear                3-64 7-64 83264
--------------------------------------------------
COLOR
          500D                    4/54 -  5-73   8-75          10-75
          500DM                 12-75 - 84054           7-75 -RF93AT07-29 FEB 96 (date on box)
          500DM 1-PTY      82349
          CS500DM           83313 - 85014
          CS500DM 1-PTY  83097 - 83213           RF87WA04 1-PTY
          500DMW.                      84203
          500MM               82225 - 86072
          500U                  11-58   
          500D2M (Tel. Set Mtg.)                                                         4-80

Dial
             7C                      5/54 - 5-65
             9C-xx.                1-65 4-65 - 2-66
                 xx: substitute color code
                        9C-60  (Lt. Beige)     1-65
             9C  (no color code)                    9-68 -
             9CA                                                   
                  P11E007 finger wheel         10-74 - [4-75]
                  Bell icon on finger wheel     [83164] - [83220]
       

        Handset
             G3A                             10/57
                     6-hole rec. cap
                     7-hole rec. cap
             G15A
        Cords
             Handset Cord (straight unless specified)
                  H4BF
                       -50 (ivory)
                      H4BF-50  (Ivory) and H4BF (black)  only on 554s; early green, red and beige 554s had H4BH-52 spring cords)
                  H4BG                                                   (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                          -50 (ivory)
                          -52 (gray)
                          -53 (red)            III 56
                          -54 (brown)
                          -56 (yellow)
                  H4BH  (spring)        II 56 -- IV 56
                           "Neutral" -52 (gray).   II 56 - IV 56
                            Yellow           III 56
                  H4BR  (spring)          III 57 -    59
                  H4CJ   (spring)     
                      short grommet        [7-63] - [4-68]
                      tapered grommet    [8-68] - [5-73]
                  H4CL
                  H4DU  (modular)
                       clear
                       matching color
                              color plugs     [74] - [2-75]
                              clear plugs
             Mounting Cord
                      D3BG                              (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                            -50 (ivory)
                            -52 (gray)
                            -54 (brown)
                      D3BN                                             61 - 73

TWO-TONE SETS (black handset, black cords, black number plate, color housing):
       2-Tone Oxford Gray (-52A)     4/53                   
                 
FULL COLOR SETS: Original Colors Offered -- Ivory, Brown and Gray sets always had matching cords.
Ivory (color code -50)             4/55 - 84175                                RF93AT03  29 FEB 96                                                         
                                                                                                                                                           
Green (-51)                             7/55 - 82349                               R83-2                                                                     
        With Neutral (dark gray) cords          9/56 - 8-57
                    Handset cord        9/56 (set date) - 8/57
                    Mounting cord       I 58  (cord date)                                                                                         
        With Green cords                   
                    Handset cord        I 58 (cord date)

        With 7C-51 dial               7/55 - 3-65                                                                             

Oxford Gray (-52)                 11/54 - 12/56                                                                                             
        Black dial                      11/54                                                                                                                   
        Gray dial                       12/56

                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                                         
Red (-53)                                4/54 - 81196    84203  RF90AT05
        With Neutral gray cords            5/55 - 10/55
                    H4BG-52                    on set dated 9/55
                    H4BH-52 (spring)        on set dated 9/55 
                    D3BG-52                    on set dated 9/55    
        With Red cords                    12/55 -    8/56
                  H4BG-53
                  H4BH-53 (spring)
                  D3BG-53

        With Black dial                        4/54
        With Red dial                         
                  7C-53        5/55  --  12/64

Brown (-54)                            6/54 - 3/56 -10/56

Rose Beige (-55)                     4/54 2/55 4/56 6/57
      With Neutral gray cords            4/54 - 11/55 - 1-57 (with H4BH dated II 56)
      With Beige Cords                      4/56 - 1-57 - 6/57

Yellow (-56)                           5/55 - 85014      [11-27-54 housing reported]        
      Neutral gray cords            5/55 - 3/56
      Yellow cords                    5/56 -  8/56 85014          RF88IL-10B

      Black number plate
      Yellow Dial Number Plate 5/55 8/56

      Equipped with 7C - 56 dial        - 8/64

Mediterranean Blue (-57)        5/54 - 7/57
     Black number plate           5/54
     Blue number plate            10/55 -7/57

1957 Colors added
White (-58)                           11/57 - 84045               RF91AT05
     with 7C-58 dial                  11/57 - 1-65
      with 9C-58 dial                  10-65
Pink (-59)                             10/57 - 8-73                  7/72
Lt. Beige (-60)                       8-57 3-60 - 78024                  R500 DM RF 91AT 11
Lt. Gray (-61)                       8/57 - 1-60
Aqua Blue (-62)                    10/57 - 78011  82349               R82-11
            8-56 aqua blue dial observed
            Equipped with 7C-62 dial  10/57 - 10-64

1964
Turquoise (-64)                     11-64

Other (Ref: ATTIS Catalog c. 1985)
Old Gold (-12)
Clear (-29)
Light Gold (-63)

C. 1990 Colors -- found on 500DM sets that were remanufactured at the AT&T Service Centers, using new  or painted plastic

Ultralight Gray (-265)
Country Blue (-305)                                  RF90AT08, RF91AT05

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts - Section 2 of 2
Post by: poplar1 on September 17, 2014, 11:15:06 AM
                                   Earliest - Latest Dates Found            Latest Refurbish Date Found (WE Repair Shops)


554 Wall Set


            Black (-3)          6-55 - 6-72         RF89ARL03
            Clear (-29)         1-75
            Ivory (-50)        2-57 - 84137       R 84-12
            Green (-51)       5-59 - 4-72         R87CT5; R83-2 (with original 7C-58 dial dated 12-63 changed to green)
            Oxford Gray (-52)  ?-56
            Red (-53)        9-55 12-59 - 8-67 4-69          R85-10
                          With  neutral (gray)spring handset cord,     9-55
            Brown (-54)
            Rose Beige (-55)12-55 6-56 8-56 - 5-57
                           with neutral spring handset cord  12-55
                           with matching rose beige handset cord 8-56
            Yellow (-56)      11-61 - 85053        R85-7RF93AT04
            Mediterranean Blue (-57) 9-56
            White (-58)        11-584-61 - 84192         RF 93AT 11
            Pink (-59)          9-61 - 3-72
            Light Beige(-60)  8-64 - 11-64       RF 88WA11
                   with 7C-60 dial  10-64
            Light Gray (-61)
            Aqua Blue (-62) 12-64  7-65 - 4-69<         82IL7 D
                    with7C-62 dial   12-64 - 1-65
            Turquoise (-64)   2-71 - 5-71                   [10/65 plastics on 2/68 set]
               

            Sunny Yellow (-303)          31 AUG 92 (DATE ON BOX)
            Country Blue (-305) 83025            RF 91AT11

            Back
                 Steel             9-56 - 9-59
                 Aluminum      12-59 - 1-60
                 Steel             6-60
            Hook
                  Painted         6-55
                  Satin            5-55
                  Chrome
                       wide      4- 5-59 - 9-59
                       narrow    3-70 - 84104
                  Clear Plastic                                      [RF8811WA] - RF 93AT 11

   
     
          554B (hardwired)                                              6-55 - 4-73        4-76
          554BM (modular handset only)                         11-72 - 10-73                 4-74
          554BMP (modular handset and line plug)            78060 83195 -  84137         [4-74]-RF 93AT 11
                   Adapter (backplate) to convert to Modular
                         Early type with spring-loaded lever; pigtail from phone
                         228                                                 6-75 --  12-75 - 5-83
                         228A                                                 4-74    4-75 - 09-79
                         
                        523A3 plug
                                mauve                                     4-74
                                dark blue
                   Factory slot in base pan for 523A plug 78060 - 85053                                 R82SY12
          554BMP 1-PTY                                  82355 - 84104
          CS 554BMP 1-PTY                                             82347 - 85053    

          554B2M (tel set base, mod. hs, hardwired line)                           2-75 
          554F (has long handset cord)                               5-71   



1500/2500

1500D (Introduced in 1963)               1-64 - 3-68   5-68          [R-] 10-78

                                            With Charcoal                With    Coordinated
              Set (color code):      Faceplate:                  Faceplate (color code):
                   Black (-3)                                               Charcoal (-70)                   
                   Ivory (-50)                                             Muted Ivory (-80)
                   Green (-51)    3-64      9-65 11-65  -    Light Green (-71)                 2-66 3-67 - 1-68
                   Red (-53)                                               Muted Red (-69)                   3-68
                   Yellow (-56)                                            Light yellow (-72)     
                   White (-58)           1-64                           Light Gray (-73)               9-66  2-67  3-67 - 11-67            
                   Pink (-59)             9-65 - 5-66              Muted pink (-74)  10-67
                   Light Beige (-60)  11-64 - 10-65               Muted Beige (-75)    1-66            9-67 - 5-68           8-75
                   Aqua Blue (-62)     9-64 - 10-66              Muted blue (-76)                                           
                   Turquoise (-64)                                       Muted turquoise (-77)  5/66?



Faceplate
    Clear, back painted, with ridges
        Charcoal gray faceplate regardless of phone color   1-64 - 12-65 10-66
             With number card inserted on back                  1-64 -  1-65
             With  detachable window on front                   
        Faceplate in muted colors to match housing color   1-66 3-66 - 1-68 5-68

Dial                                                                                                                   
       25A3                                               12-63 - 9-66  11-66            R 1 IL 80
       25W3 (convertible to 12-button)         2-67 - 6-67 - 9-67

> Bell System Property Not For Sale engraved on base plate 9-67 11-67 12-67
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   
2500

2500D                               10-68 -  12-75                7-76
     Matching Mounting Cord 10-68 - 11-70
     Silver Satin Mtg. Cord    10-72 - 12-75
     Clear Mtg. Cord            11-75                                               7-76
2500DM                        11-73 - 81259               R85-5
2500DMG                     81103 81341 - 82211              R2500 DMG RF 93AT03 94AT11
2500DMG 1-PTY            82175 -  83287              R84-12
CS2500DMG                 84046 - 84175
CS2500DMG 1-PTY        82293 - 84172
2500 DMGC (timed recall)    88279
2500DMGL (Signature)  3/8/94

2500M (A-lead control)
2500MM                     78074 - 84336                 RF86SN03
2500MMG                   82159 - 84265 85289  RF90PA02
2500YM (msg. wt. lamp)     83123 - 87061

With Electronic Ringer
  CS2500DMGB           84146 - 84159
  2500MMGB                84290 - 88020
         Hi/Lo/Off           85035 - 86024
         Hi/Lo                       86239



Black (-3)                     9-71 - 82319 (MMG}                  RF91AT02
Ivory (-50)                  10-68 - 84175                 RF 92AT 12
Green (-51)        4-69 11-73 - 83018                  R82-8
Red (-53)                      8-69 - 81187  82076      RF93AT06
Yellow (-56)                  7-70 - 83031
White (-58)                   6-70 - 79116                  RF 93AT03 RF 94AT01
Pink (-59)                      11-70 - 6-73                                                       6-71                                                                            
Lt. Beige (-60)             10-72 - 82270                  RF 89SN01
Lt. Gray (-61)                  5-72             {5/70 plastics on 10/72 set}
Aqua Blue (-62)          10-69   5-72 8-76 - 80164 82211 82316                R83-9
Turquoise (-64)

Bright Red (-114)                                                 RF 91AT 10 - RF 94AT11  
Country Blue (-305)      83119 - 84146

Faceplate (based on date stamped on bottom of dates matching set)
   Backpainted       4-69        8-69 - 8-76
   Opaque                   
            Plain                77101 - 77300 82076          
           With Bell          82183 - 83287
           Plain (post-divestiture) 84146
            AT&T                                                                                 RF94AT01
Dial ("operator 4-69 - 6-73" "OPER 7-73 - 86SP10")
     35A3A              12-68 - 8-69
     35Y3A                2-71 - 3-80   [OPER 7-73]          
     35Y3D              11-73 - 86SP10
     72H3A                82-10 - 86-3

1554/2554

1554B (10-button)                                             11-64 - 3-66
         N-TYPE RINGER, CONTROL ON TOP             11-64 - 3-66
         P-TYPE RINGER, CONTROL ARM ON SIDE          6-67
       
2554B (hardwired)                                            3-684-68  7-70 - 9-74
2554BM (616B modular handset jack)                  5-74 - 11-74
2554BMP (616B + 523A line plug)                       3-76 - 77159 - 81244             85IL 3 A
2554BMPG (with polarity guard)                          80198 80354 - 84194        R2554BMPG RF 94AT09
2554BMPG 1-PTY                                                82253
2554BMPW                                                        83298
CS 2554BMPG                                                    82287 - 84194 84264
CS2554BMPG 1-PTY                                         83054 83110    - 84010

2554B2M (tel. set mounting only)                                                           74

2554BMPB (electronic ringer)                              86037 - 87273

Colors Available:
Black (-3)              78256 - 83298                                                                 R83-5
Ivory (-50)            83279 - 83348                                                          R2554BMPG RF 94AT11
Green (-51)           7-70 - 82253
Red (-53)              77115                                                                                         R82-7 2554BMG
Yellow (-56)          3-76 76293 - 84194                                                              R83NA10
White (-58)           4-66                                                                           RF 94AT09                                                                           
Beige (-60)         11-64                                          R82-3
Aqua Blue (-62)   11-72 - 77272

Mocha Brown (-304)                                                                         RF92AT01 -- 31 OCT 93
Country Blue (-305)  83110  (CS2554BMPG1pty) - 86175 (2554BMPB)

Metal Cradle
Plastic Cradle (matching color) 82053 -   84194 84264

N-type ringer
P-type ringer                7-70    

Signature 2554 (lease only)
          Maize Yellow (-308)         

Princess

Ringer Type
   Separate E1B ringer or F1A Bell Chime
   M1A                     1-63 - 80154
   P-type (Trimline)80280 - 85106

ROTARY

701B--        11-59 - 10-62 - 1-63                                   R1269
               "701B BELL SYSTEM" (no Princess markings)  11-59
               "701B BELL SYSTEM The Princess Phone"       
                                                Black ink                     12-59 - 4-60
                                                Engraved                            6-60   11-60- 2-61   1-63  
702B      12-62 1-63 - 10-73                                  3-76<
702BM       10-73 78052 - 80088                                  RF 86PA08  RF881L-2 C
CS702BM (No dial lamp) 83202 - 85057

Rotary Dial:
    8A
    8FA    7-77
Number plate letters and figures:
Brown
Black  77283

TOUCH-TONE
1702B         9-6410-64 11-64 - 6-67 11-67
                    Dial: 25H4               5-67  
                            25P4    6-67     7-67
2702B            6-69 -  4-75                              10-75
2702BM         2-74 - 81317                             RF 94AT03
2702BMG     80154 - 82075                             
CS2702BMG 83055 - 85106 (no dial lamp)

2703BMG Signature  94AT03

PRINCESS COLORS
                       
Original 1959 Colors
White (-58)       1-60 - 78156                           R83-11(702 BM) RF881L-2 C (702BM)
Pink (-59)        11-59 -  3-66 6-75 8-76 (2702BM - NJ Bell)
Lt. Beige (-60) 11-60   - 2-64 79022   80329 (2702BM)        R83B12 (702BM)
Aqua Blue (-62) 11-59 - 83055                         RF87BO04
Turquoise (-64)
----------------------------
1963  added colors
Black (-3) 12-62  8-63 (702B) - 2-68 (702B)                                                     11-78 (702BM)
Green (-51)    6-65 (1702B) -78004(2702BM) - 78284 (702BM)
                                                                                     
Yellow (-56)    6-67 (1702B) - 85080 (CS2702BMG)
Lt. Gray (-61)  12-70
-------------------------------
1967 added colors
Ivory (-50)     2-74 (2702BM) - 85106 (CS2702BMG)     RF88PA02 (R2702BM)
Red (-53)   3-71(702B)    2-73 (702B) - 77283 (2702BM)                             30 APR 88 (702BM)
-------------------------------
Clear (-29)
------------------------------
Late colors
Blue      83081 83144(CS2702BMG) - 85080 (CS2702BMG)
Cameo Green (-255)                                                    31 JAN 93 (R-702BM)
Peach (-258)                                                              RF91AT04 - 31 MAR 93
Slate Blue (-293)                                                        RF91AT 06  (R-2702BMG) -  94AT03
CS (Consumer Sales) Princess sets c. 1984  were available in  ivory (-50), yellow (-56), white (-58),  dark blue, and possibly others.

The colors available for remanufactured 702BMs and 2702BMGs in 1990 were
Ivory (-50), White (-58), Cameo Green (-255), Peach (-258) and Slate Blue (-293).

2703BMG Signature Princess sets were first assembled  in the Atlanta Service Center. According to Bill B., they originally had problems with the ringers and cracked PCBs. Slate blue and cameo green were dropped. These sets were available in
Ivory (-50), White (-58), Pink (-59), Aqua Blue (-62) and Peach (-258).


Trimline

A Trimline set consists of a "Hand Telephone Set" + a "Telephone Base." Originally, all components and apparatus were ordered separately.

Hand Telephone Sets
   Rotary
       220A                                                        H4DB handset cord (large plugs)/H5AA
       220AM (220A w/227D adapter)                  H4DU handset cord (mini-modular plugs)
       223C (LED)                                               H4DU
  Touch-Tone
       1220A (10-button):                                       H4DB   
                  [with  AC1-62 base dated 12/66; with AD1-53 base dated 8-67]
       2220B (round buttons)                               H4DB        [with AD2 base dated 6-73 -  77144]    -11-77                             
       2220BM (2220B w/227-type adapter)          H4DU       [with AD3 base dated 3-77]                                  
       2220C (LED, square buttons)                      H4DU        7-79


Telephone Base
  Date Stamp on base:
             Month-Year  6-65 - 3-77
             Julian 77115 (AD3) - 84289

       Desk                                                                                                                                                                                                     
            AD1                                                                                                                    4-65 - -- 5-75
                                H5AA
                                H4DB handset cord          D5AL mounting cord 
                               Flat handset cord with large plugs --Silver satin mtg. cord    -  11-74   
                                     
            AD2              H4DB                              D4BU mini-modular mtg. cord                    4-73 6-73 9-73  5-75 -- 77278                              5-74

            AD3              H4DU                              D4BU
              "AD3"                                                                                                   3-77 77207 --83172     RF89IL-07D
              "AD3 1-PTY"                                                                                                        83139
               "CS223A/2223A"                                                                                                82271 -- 84244   RC94AT05

       Wall (Shallow housing: 10-66  -  3-73;   Deep housing: 12-74- 84289)
            AC1              H4DB round handset cord          Hardwired line connection                       10-66 - 7-76<                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                 flat clear handset cord                                                                                                                          10-76
            AC1P            H4DB                              523A plug for 630A modular wall jack              1-77 -- 77318                             3-76 [conversion]

            AC2              H4DU                             Hardwired line connection
            AC2P            H4DU                              523A plug                                                   
               "AC2P"                                                                                                              78333 -- 82286   R88CT8
               "AC2P 1-PTY"                                                                                                     82335
               "CS224A/CS2224A"                                                                                                      83167 -- 84289

(Reference: Issue 10, BSP Section 502-322-400, July, 1981, Table B) 

6 Original Rotary Trimline Colors (1965)

Desk: White, Beige, Pink, Blue and Turquoise
White (-58)               4-65 (AD1) - 9-76 (AD1)   
Beige (-60)-               6-73 (AD2)                                                                      R82-10 (AD3)
Pink (-59)                  6-65 (AD1) - 8-73 (AD1)
Aqua Blue (-62)          1-67 (AD1/[220A] - 83157
Turquoise (-64)

Wall: White, Beige, Yellow and Pink
White (-58)                6-67 (AC1) -  2-68 (AC1)
Beige (-60)
Yellow (-56)              10-74 (AC1)[2220B]                          AC2P RF 87SN11 84-3  
Pink (-59)                  8-70 (AC1) -
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Additional standard colors found
Yellow desk                 9-72 (AD1) - 80105 (AD3/[2220C])        1-74 (AD1)
Black (-3)                    4-70 (AD1) with 220A - 81268 (AD3)                 5-75 2-80RF87IL-06C (R223A)
Ivory (-50)                  82271(CS2223A) -  83273 (CS223A)                                  94AT05(R223A)
Green (-51)                  10-66 (AC1) - 77159 (AD2)                                      AC1MP 3-78
Red (-53)                     7-71 (AC1) - 80330 (AD3)              R83NA9                                                   
Light Gray (-61)          9-72 (AC1 with 220A)
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Added Sept. 1, 1978:
Chocolate Brown, Rust
Dark Brown (-104)        79236 (AD3) - 84171 (2223A)        AC2P R-85BO7
Rust (-124)                   78331 (AD3) - 83137(AD3)                                        RF 88PA04(AC2P)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Additional colors in 1983 Catalog (ATTIS)

(-6)
Gold (-111)
Teal Blue (-145)                        83167 (CS2224A) - 84212 (CS2223A) 
Dark Teaberry (-146)
Creamy Apricot (-147)
Tercot Rose

______________________________________________________________________________________________
Added colors C. 1990
Bright Red (-114)   
Sun Yellow (-303)
Forrest Green (-302)                                            RF90AT 10 (224A) - RF 92AT01
Country Blue  (-305)                                              31 JAN 92 - RF 93AT03 (R-2223A)            
 

Dial Face Cards for 1220A (10-button) and 2220B (round button): per BSP 502-320-100, Issue 5, Oct. '68 (TCI Library)

Hand Tel and
Dial Hub Cover                    Dial Face Card

Black (-03)                         Slate
Ivory (-50)                         Cinnamon Brown
Green (-51)                        Dark Jade Green
Red (-53)                           Burgundy
Yellow (-56)                       Gold
White (-58)                        Slate
Rose Pink (-59)                  Rose
Lt. Beige (-60)                   Sandalwood
Lt. Gray (-61)                    Slate
Aqua Blue (-62)                 Peacock Blue
Turquoise (-64)                 Turquoise Green


REMANUFACTURED OR REFURBISHED PHONES:

Previously used telephones, owned by the Bell companies and leased to subscribers, were  sent back to the Western Electric Service Centers, where they were remanufactured for the phone companies. B.B. Wingo said the refurbished phones were actually more reliable than new ones, because they had been more extensively tested.  These sets often have "TELEPHONE CO. PROPERTY" stamped in green ink  on individual parts and/or on the carton.  Every black Western Electric 500DM (modular) I've seen for sale on Ebay in the last year or so, where photos are provided of the base, has been remanufactured, rather than "dates matching" original set. Even after complete Design Line sets were available for purchase (starting in 1975, you could buy the shell but not the inside parts), the "Big Ten" sets continued to be available only for lease for several years. Later, the leased phones already installed could be purchased as "SIP" (Sold in Place), for about $20 for a basic phone. 500s, Princess sets, etc. were later available for sale in the company-owned "Phone Center Stores."
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Kenton K on October 02, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
Is there any need for a 1960 329A set? Its basically an empty 302. Its got 1960s shells, base, elements....

Ken
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on October 04, 2014, 02:28:55 PM
Quote from: Kenton K on October 02, 2014, 01:50:03 AM
Is there any need for a 1960 329A set? Its basically an empty 302. Its got 1960s shells, base, elements....

Ken
Yes, definitely. Please provide dates and/or pictures. This set was used with 101A or 102A Key.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Kenton K on October 04, 2014, 11:40:10 PM
Cool,

Here are some pics.

Both caps are dated 5-59, and are plastic, not bakelite.
Cords are also both II 59.

Its got an F2 handset  with a II 59 129A capacitor.

Ken
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on October 27, 2014, 11:46:36 AM
Transparent Finger Wheel Summary:


"OPEN CENTER", also called "SOFT CENTER":


(1) P-298941
    Used on 5J dials manufactured c. 1941-1942. Thick finger wheel with an X-shaped finger wheel clamp

(2) P-372629
   Used on 5J dials manufactured c. 1947-1951. Two-piece finger wheel clamp/support.

(3) P-344837
   Introduced in late 1951, this "improved transparent finger-wheel" was the first type with a small hole between the 9 and 0.  Standard on late 5J dials 1952, it could also be used to replace broken P-372629s by changing the finger wheel clamp. Also used on 6D dials c. 1953-1954.

(4) P-19B524
    Introduced in fourth quarter of 1954 for 6D and 7C dials. Standard finger wheel for 7C dials 1954-1965. Will also fit 5J dials when the correct finger wheel clamp is available.
    This was the last "open center" type. If a P-19B524 was unavailable, a P-344837 could be used.

LATER TYPE:

(5) P11E007 
      Introduced in 1959 for 8-type dials on Princess sets. Also used on 9C dials (c. 1964-1974?) and 9CA dials (c. 1975-1986)

>Note: Refurbished sets may have 7C or 7D dials with updated P11E007 finger wheels

(6) Heavy duty transparent finger wheel found on some coin phones

(7) Like the P11E007, but with Bell emblem in the center. Used on American Bell CS (Retail "Consumer Sales") sets c. 1983





Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on November 03, 2014, 01:16:15 PM
I am losing track of the most recent versions of part dates.... hope I am getting this right.

What is the earliest # 164-A dial number plate represented here?


164A   (No 164As found with "Z")
II 54.....IV 75


?

I have found a I-54 in my archive pictures, labeled 164-A on rear side, with "OPERATOR" curled around zero.
It's on one of my 302s (1947, 5H dial).
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on November 18, 2014, 02:35:45 PM
With Bruce's 11-57 Lt. Gray 500DR, the earliest 500s in colors other than black observed so far are as follows:
           
                        EARLIEST                LATEST

4/53 2-tone Oxford Gray (500D-52A)

9/53 2-tone Ivory (500D-50A)

4/54  Red
4/54 Rose Beige
                                           6/57
5/54  Med. Blue                                                  7/57
6/54  Brown                                                       3/56
11/54 Oxford Gray                                            12/56
2/55  Rose Beige
4/55 Ivory
5/55  Yellow  [11-27-54 housing reported]
7/55  Green
11/55 Rose Beige
6/56   Ivory

8/57 Light Beige
8/57 Light Gray
10/57  Pink
10/57 Aqua Blue
11/57 Lt. Gray
11/572/58  White
2-6 1  Lt. Beige

11-64 Turquoise

Anyone have earlier matched dates color  sets?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on November 18, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on November 18, 2014, 02:35:45 PM
With Bruce's 11-57 Lt. Gray 500DR, the earliest 500s in colors other than black observed so far are as follows:

4/54  Red
5/54  Med. Blue
6/54  Brown
11/54 Oxford Gray
5/55  Yellow
7/55  Green
11/55 Rose Beige
6/56   Ivory

10/57  Pink
10/57 Aqua Blue
11/57 Lt. Gray
2/58  White
2-61  Lt. Beige

11-64 Turquoise

Anyone have earlier matched dates sets in any of the above colors?

Ivory 4-55
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Kenton K on November 18, 2014, 03:01:08 PM
Tptech302 says he has a 2/55 rose beige
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on February 02, 2015, 10:00:29 AM
6 Original Rotary Trimline Colors

Wall: White, Beige, Yellow and Pink

Desk: White, Beige, Pink, Blue and Turquoise

Market Trials

Jackson, Michigan, and Janesville, Wisconsin

Introduction

Michigan Bell, August, 1965
"The rest of the Bell System plans to bring the phone to the public on a company-by-company basis."

Reference:
"all about the Trimline phone" booklet, 9/65
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

           September 1, 1978, the Bell System added rust and chocolate brown to the existing eight colors
           that make up the Trimline product line.


Dialtone, final edition, Sept. 13, 1984





Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 06, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
I noticed that the 1957 Graybar catalog shows a 164A number plate dated in 1953 a few months earlier than our observed date.



PS 2016-05-08:   It appears, btw, that Graybar took this image from an AT&T BSP.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 06, 2015, 09:36:31 PM
IIIII 53=I 54?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 06, 2015, 09:40:24 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on March 06, 2015, 09:36:31 PM
IIIII 53=I 54?

I am certain that is III ::53, with the two ::  double dots connected, but clearly separated from the quarter.

We never have figured out what the extra punctuation around the year means. This does not make the puzzle any simpler.

It's interesting to note that this comes right after our existing cut off date for the dotted No.6 Z plates:
II 53  with dot and Z
and places it at the same time as the dotted plate without Z, III 53.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 13, 2015, 10:33:49 PM
In the section on Subsets, the 684A starts at III 31.

I have one marked  II 31 on both base plate and ringer coil.

First appearance in BSPs is probably C31.111 i1 1931-06-01.





Quote from: poplar1 on March 11, 2014, 09:36:49 AM

Subsets, common battery:

Sidetone: for 102, 20 AL, 40 AL, 50 AL, 51 AL. (May also be used with 202 or 151AL)
212
295A (oak or walnut).............c.1905
     21-D Condenser:
             2.0 uF.......c. 1905-1914?
             1.0 uF.......c. 1918?- ?
295BP (cow gongs)
334A (steel, exposed gongs)...c.1916-
      6A ringer, 25A gongs, 20 Induction Coil {C31.101, Issue 1, 2-15-33==TCI Library}
     
534A (steel, enclosed gongs)..c. 1920-1930(?)
      With No. 46 Induction Coil and 8A ringer
      With No. 46B Induction Coil and 8A ringer
      With No. 46B Induction Coil and  __  ringer (inverted gongs) c. 1929-1930
584A (brass with Bakelite cover)..c.1930-1943.........330 230....I 42
      46C induction coil, 78A ringer

Anti-sidetone: (for 202, 211, 151 AL, 152 AB)
434A   (conversions only)
     146B induction coil    {C31.111, Issue 1, June 1931} (TCI Library)
     101A induction coil     {C31.101 Issue 3, July, 1953}  (TCI library)
495BP  (conversions only)--Cow gongs
634A  (Steel) (Conversions only?)
684A  (Bakelite cover)....c. 1931-.......III 31.......................................II 37
       
         101-type Induction Coil...............................................IV 34
         146-type Induction Coil, 78A ringer
634BA (Steel, high impedance ringer) (Conversions only?)
684BA (Bakelite cover, high impedance 78JA or B1A/B1AL ringer)....III 36...12/55

                                 
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 14, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
I found a 6D dial with a "6"-marked finger stop, dated 2-55.  The 164A number plate on this was pristine from III::54.
That brings these a lot closer to the 6A with such finger stops.

The current oldest appears to be 8-55 in the charts:


Quote from: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM



6A.......1952-1970.......with black painted aluminum finger wheel and black case
      plain finger stop 3-52 -- 4-53*
      6 stamped on finger stop
*11-54 -- 3-70
6D........1953-1955.......with P-344837 or P-19B524 clear finger wheel and white case
     plain finger stop..................5-53 -- 1-54*
      6 stamped on finger stop.......*8-55 -- 12-55
"The 6D dial, which supersedes the 5JB, should be used for replacement purposes on plastic and painted sets  except those in the 500 series." C30.011 Issue 6, Dec. 1953

6AA             83/03

Note: the P-344837 could also be used on 6D and 7C dials, if the P-19B524 was not available.


Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 12, 2015, 05:18:49 PM
" A" suffix indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate. S-3-47A - 9-48A

"  H-" prefix -- Hawthorne?   H-1-46 - H-3-46

"  I-"  prefix/suffix -- Indianpolis?     8-49-I

" S-"  prefix -- St. Paul, MN?   S-12-44 -- S-3-47A

Examples of A-, H-, I- and S- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

1944:
Ringer, Baseplate:  S-12-44

1945:
Ringer: S-1-45, S-4-45, S-7-45, S-12-45
Transmitter: S8/45

1946:
Dial:    H-1-46  H-3-46
Ringer: S-2-46, S-6-46
Baseplate: S-6-46

1947:
Baseplate: S-3-47A, 11-47A,
Ringer:      S-3-47A

1948:
Baseplate: 9-48A

1949:
F1 Transmitter Unit: 8-49-I


1950:
Dial:  I-1-50
Ringer  1-50-I
Baseplate 1-50-I

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 12, 2015, 05:22:41 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 12, 2015, 05:18:49 PM
"-A" indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate.

"-S" -- unknown significance
" H-"-- unknown

Examples of S-, H- and A- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

1947:
"S-3-47-A" -- 302: baseplate, ringer

H-?  really?   Have only seen –A, S–, and –I.

Do you have an actual 1947 find with  S– ?,  I believe I have only seen them in 1945.

–A aluminum variants are from ca. 1947 to 1949.

–I variants span a broader time range until at least 1953.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 12, 2015, 05:38:41 PM
Yes, I'm looking at a 302 dated "S-3-47A" on the inside baseplate, also with a ringer marked "S-3-47A". I had forgotten about -I, will add it to the list.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 12, 2015, 05:50:23 PM
From cursory scan of data, I think I have these (–I) from 1949 to 4-53–I, on bases and ringers, some red stripes.

From ringer impedance measurements (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11948.msg152625#msg152625) at ringing frequencies (15-65 Hz) I have some preliminary indications that they may have a slightly higher impedance, but I need to measure multiple units.
The slope of the impedance vs. frequency graph seems to have a significant increase in slope, which I think indicates that the inductance is higher.  A red stripe ringer showed no significant difference though, which kind of contradicts that thought, because supposedly their inductance was only 9 henry, while a normal B1A had 20H.  On the other hand, the behavior at low frequencies of ringing, does not necessarily tell much about the audio frequency range, where inductive noise comes to play.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: compubit on August 12, 2015, 10:36:46 PM
A few dates to add (based on what I have close at hand...)

1500D White with Light Gray Faceplate - 9/66
1500D Pink with Muted Pink Faceplate - 10/67
1500D Green with Charcoal Faceplate - 11/65
1500D Aqua Blue with Charcoal Faceplate - 10/66 (Date matched birthday phone!)
1500D Beige with Muted Beige Faceplate - 1/66
1500D Turquoise with Muted Turquoise Faceplate - 5/66 (base/cord/handset/Touch Tone pad stamped 65, but base plastics are 5/66)

554B Turquoise - Plastic stamped 10/65; base stamped 2/68
2500D Light Gray - Plastic stamped 5/70; internals stamped 10/72 (nice long thick gray cord!)

702B Turquoise - base stamped red 6/70 (Refurb date?)
702B Lt Gray - 12/70

Pink AC1 base - 2/67
Aqua Blue AC1 (with 1220A handset) - 12/66

Red 2554B - 4/68
Red AD1 (with 1220A handset) - 8/67

Jim
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on September 09, 2015, 06:26:38 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 12, 2015, 05:18:49 PM
" A" suffix indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate.

"  H-" prefix -- unknown significance

"  I-"  prefix -- unknown

" S-"  prefix -- unknown

Examples of A-, H-, I- and S- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

1945:
Ringer: S-1-45, S-4-45, S-7-45, S-12-45

1946:
Ringer: S-2-46
Dial:    H 1-46  H-3-46

1947:
Baseplate: S-3-47A, 11-47A,
Ringer:      S-3-47A

1948:
Baseplate: 9-48A

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I

Could the S– prefix mean the sets were manufactured in St. Paul, MN where Western bought a factory building in 1944 to resume telephone production?



==Other S– sightings==
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7736.0
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15203.0

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on September 11, 2015, 07:42:45 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on September 09, 2015, 06:26:38 PM

Could the S– prefix mean the sets were manufactured in St. Paul, MN where Western bought a factory building in 1944 to resume telephone production?


In extensions of the suggestion, I would continue with the further assumption that the H– prefix indicates that the item was manufactured at Hawthorne Works.   Both of these prefixes only appear, from the data presented here, during these early years right after the war.

If manufacturing indeed started up again in late 1944 in St. Paul, and later expanded to, or was moved back to Hawthorne after space had been freed by the end of war equipment production, it would seem to be necessary only for a short time, as is the record shows.

It also interesting that the marking for technical differences were appended as suffixes to the dates (–A, –I), so perhaps the location marks were prefixed (S–, H–).

Schlagheck and Lantz write in their book of 2014 the following:
The Model 300 series of telephones debuted in 1936. More than 25 million of them poured out of Hawthorne and other Western Electric factories over the next 18 years. The square base held all the circuitry, so, unlike candlestick models, the 300s did not need the separate ringer unit. However, the consumer's choice of color was still limited to black.

D. Schlagheck, C. Lantz, "Hawthorne Works", Arcadia Publishing, 2014, ISBN 9781467111355, page 61.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on September 24, 2015, 08:48:46 AM
Did anyone download or print out the table on 500s (shown below) after March, 2015 but before Sept. 8, 2015? All updates made during that time period were lost.

Quote from: poplar1 on September 15, 2014, 12:14:21 PM
                                                    "Big Ten" Telephone Sets

                                            Rotary       =   500,   554, Princess, Trimline Desk, Trimline Wall
                                            Touch-Tone= 2500, 2554, Princess, Trimline Desk, Trimline Wall


                                                                Manufacture Dates     Refurb or Conversion Date
                                                                Earliest - Latest          Latest      
                                                                   Observed              Observed
500 Type Desk Set

Model and date stamp (black ink)
     Between Front Feet                               10/49 - 3/51
     Below ringer volume control                     9/51 - 8-66
              M/YY or MM/YY
              M-YY or MM-YY                              6-57   3-58       
     Between vents                                        1-67 - 10-73
     Left side                                                1-74 3-74 - 86072

Refurb date stamp
     Vermilion Ink                                                                                                                R1172C
     Sticker   12-75

Dial
     7A (Black only)                                     6/50 I - 1/53 I
   
     7C (P-19B524 open center finger wheel)*  5/54 - 5-65    6-65          7C-60 12-62 on 500 D-60 R11-67
      7D-3 (Black only--black finger wheel)     10/54 - 10/64         9-79 (refurbished 500DM)
      9C (P11E007 finger wheel)                     
         9C-x (x=insert color code)                   2-65 - 6-66
         9C (no color code indicated)             1-68  - 4-73
      9CA                                                     
         Metal finger wheel clamp                     4-75 -  3-80 5-81
         White plastic finger wheel clamp           1-82 -  83/03
     *Note: Refurbished sets may have 7C or 7D dials with P11E007 finger wheels                           C/D 500 10-75
      Apparatus Blanks (500C):
                95A                 6-53
                95B
                95C
           
Housing
       Logo 
            "Bell System Made by Western Electric"     
                      Rectangular                       [10-62] - [9-68]
                      Curved sides
            Bell icon + "Western Electric"        [82349] - [83164]  (American
               



Last revision 9-8-15===========

The following itlalicized info was lost on 9-8-15; this this info is from a March, 2015 update.

            AT&T                                           [83313]
Logo on handset
           Western Electric                            [3-67] - [9-68]
           Bell System Property Not for Sale   (C. 1968) - [82210]
           Bell icon + Western Electric          83123
           AT&T                                           [83313]
Ringer
       C2A                                                 11/51 - 2/53
       C4A                                                  8/53
       C4C                                             

1/16/55 The frames on all C4A ringers manufac-
             tured after January 15, 1955 are changed in design so that they
             will not interfere with the free movement of the volume-
             adjusting arm as did the earlier model. (Addendum C31.124, Issue 1, April, 1956)

Baseplate
         black                              10/49 - 12-65
         cadmium plated                8-66 - 85014
       
Feet
         Suede                            11-50 - 3-58       R81-2
         Neoprene (large)              4-59 - 12-62      RF90PA01
         Round with ribs                7-63 - 8-65
         Round smooth                  9-65 - 86072

Network
        425A
        425B
        425E
        4228
        4293
     
                                                                                                                                                                                   
--------------------------------------------------                                                       
BLACK                                                                                                                                                                                                         
           500                               10/49 - 11/50
           500B  (equalizer)
           500T  (terminal block)      3/51 - 1/52   

           500D                   3/52 6/52 -  4-75
                    7-type dial            4-56 -  10-64      R872C
                    9-type dial            2/65 - 4-75       1-72
       
           500DM                                                  R83-5
                    7-type dial
                        metal finger wheel                        500DM 9-79 WN                                                               
                        P11E007 finger wheel
                    9-type dial                     
           CS500DM 1-PTY          82344 - 83264
           500M                            3-60
           500MM                        82057 - 82190                   R84-5
           500D2M Tel. Set Mounting                                    R81-4B
           

      Dial
              Metal Finger Wheel
                   7A                          6/50 I - 1/53 I
                   7D-3                       10/54 - 9-64
              Clear plastic  Finger Wheel
                   9C-3                         2-65 -  3-66
                   9C                          11-70 - 3-73
                   9CA                          4-76 -
                      P11E009 finger wheel
                      With Bell icon        82344
           
   
      Dial number plate
          "OPERATOR" in semi-circle     9/50
          "OPERATOR" in small font    10/50
          "OPERATOR" in larger font

      Handset
             G1A                      10/50 - 11-64
                 --Cord restraints molded in handle      1-56
                 --Cord restraints part of cup
             G3A                      11-64
             G15A
      Cords
             Handset Cord
                    H4BA            III 50
                    H4BD (semi-retractile)                    (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                    H4BF             II 56
                    H4BH (retractile)                             (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)     
                    H4CJ  (spring)
                    H4DU (modular)
                           clear   [4-78]
                           black
                             
             Mounting Cord
                    D3BB            III 50 - 54
                    D3BD (retractile)                                      (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                    D3BN                62
                    Clear hardwired                                                on 9-75 refurb set
                    Clear modular
      Plungers
                 Black               4-56 - 10-58
                 Clear               7-64
--------------------------------------------------
COLOR
          500D                    4/54 -  5-73             10-75
          500DM                 12-75 - 84054          7-75 - RF93AT07-29 FEB 96 (date on box)
          500DM 1-PTY      82349
          CS500DM           83313 - 85014
          CS500DM 1-PTY  83097 -            RF87WA04 1-PTY
          500MM               82225 - 86072
          500U                  11-58   
          500D2M (Tel. Set Mtg.)                                                         4-80

Dial
             7C                      5/54 - 5-65
             9C-xx.                4-65 - 2-66
                 xx: substitute color code
             9C                     9-68 -
             9CA                                                   
                  P11E007 finger wheel         [4-75]
                  Bell icon on finger wheel     [83164] - [83220]
       

        Handset
             G3A                             10/57
                     6-hole rec. cap
                     7-hole rec. cap
             G15A
        Cords
             Handset Cord
                  H4BG                                                       (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                  H4BH  (spring)        II 56 (neutral gray) -  IV 56
                  H4BR  (spring)              59
                  H4CJ   (spring)     
                      short grommet        [7-63] - [4-68]
                      tapered grommet    [8-68] - [5-73]

                  H4DU  (modular)
                       clear
                       matching color
                              color plugs     [74] - [2-75]
                              clear plugs
             Mounting Cord
                      D3BG                              (C36.101 issue 13, May, 1955)
                    D3BN                                             61 - 73
                   
                 
Original Colors Offered
Ivory (color code -50)             4/55 - 84175  RF93AT03  29 FEB 96                                                         
                                                                                                                                                           
Green (-51)                             7/55 - 82349  R83-2                                                                     
        Neutral gray cords          9/56 - 8-57 - I 58 (mtg)                                                                                   
        Green cords                    I 58 (hs)                                                                                     

Oxford Gray (-52)                  11/54 - 12/56                                                                                             
        Black dial                      11/54                                                                                                                   
        Gray dial                       12/56

2-Tone Oxford Gray (-52A)     4/53                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                                         
Red (-53)                                4/54 - 81196    RF90AT05
        Neutral gray cords            5/55 - 10/55
        Red cords                    12/55 -    8/56

        Black dial                        4/54
        Red dial                          5/55

Brown (-54)                            6/54 - 3/56

Rose Beige (-55)                     4/54 2/55 4/56 6/57
      Neutral gray cords            4/54 - 11/55 - 1-57 (with H4BH dated II 56)
      Beige Cords                      4/56 - 1-57 - 6/57

Yellow (-56)                           5/55 - 85014               
      Neutral gray cords            5/55 - 3/56
      Yellow cords                    5/56 - 85014          RF88IL-10B

      Black number plate
      Yellow Dial Number Plate 5/55

Mediterranean Blue (-57)        5/54 - 7/57
     Black number plate           5/54
     Blue number plate            10/55 -7/57

1957 Colors added
White (-58)                           11/57 - 84045               RF91AT05
     with 7C-58 dial                  11/57 - 1-65
Pink (-59)                             10/57 - 8-73                  7/72
Lt. Beige (-60)                       8-57 3-60 - 78024                  R500 DM RF 91AT 11
Lt. Gray (-61)                       8/57 - 1-60
Aqua Blue (-62)                    10/57 - 78011                 R82-11
            8-56 aqua blue dial observed

1964
Turquoise (-64)                     11-64

Other
Old Gold (-12)
Clear (-29)
Light Gold (-63)

C. 1990 Colors

Ultralight Gray (-265)
Country Blue (-305)                                  RF90AT08, RF91AT05
Report To Admin

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 19, 2016, 04:20:21 PM
I have an H3AG cord dated I 57, one monthquarter beyond the range.
I can confirm the lower bound of 1952.



Quote from: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM
Telephone Sets

.
.
.

Handset Cord 302s as originally assembled had H3C, H3AA, or H3AG
   Fabric jacket:
        twill weave (1937-1941)
        basket weave (1942-1957)         
      H3C (1937-1957)                    II 38 46 -- 57
           brass-color restraints          II 38   
      H3P (Retractile/spring)            III 40 -- III 55
      H3W                                   
      H3AA (Wartime Restrictions--cotton covered conductors)
                                                      I 44.......II 45
   
  Other jacket Rubber: 1938-1941, not for general use; Neoprene 1946-?; standardized in 1949 per BLR May, 1959.
By 1959, PVC had replaced Neoprene.
      H3H                 I 46
      H3AD               I 48 -- IV 50
      H3AF    (spring)II 51 -- 57
      H3AG              1952 -- IV 56
      H3AH              II 55 IV 58 -- I 59
      H3AJ               IV 58 -- IV 59
      H3AR...(spring)III 62 --67
      H3AS              I 60[/b] -- 62


Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 19, 2016, 05:50:52 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on March 19, 2016, 04:20:21 PM
I have an H3AG cord dated I 57, one month beyond the range.
I can confirm the lower bound of 1952.



Quote from: poplar1 on May 06, 2014, 09:37:08 AM
Telephone Sets

.
.
.

Handset Cord 302s as originally assembled had H3C, H3AA, or H3AG
   Fabric jacket:
        twill weave (1937-1941)
        basket weave (1942-1957)         
      H3C (1937-1957)                    II 38 46 -- 57
           brass-color restraints          II 38   
      H3P (Retractile/spring)            III 40 -- III 55
      H3W                                   
      H3AA (Wartime Restrictions--cotton covered conductors)
                                                      I 44.......II 45
   
  Other jacket Rubber: 1938-1941, not for general use; Neoprene 1946-?; standardized in 1949 per BLR May, 1959.
By 1959, PVC had replaced Neoprene.
      H3H                 I 46
      H3AD               I 48 -- IV 50
      H3AF    (spring)II 51 -- 57
      H3AG              1952 -- IV 56
      H3AH              II 55 IV 58 -- I 59
      H3AJ               IV 58 -- IV 59
      H3AR...(spring)III 62 --67
      H3AS              I 60[/b] -- 62



That 1957 date for an H3AG cord is plausible. It was superseded by the vinyl-jacketed H3AJ straight cord. Here is what I stated in another topic:
By 1952,  new black 302s were equipped with  straight neoprene-jacketed cords with rubber conductors. They were coded D3AY for the mounting (line) cord and H3AG for the handset cord. These new cords were also used on remanufactured 302s.

Rubber cords were available starting in 1938, but in very limited use. After the war, neoprene was used instead of rubber.  Black Vinyl-jacketed cords weren't produced until c. 1958.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 19, 2016, 06:45:24 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on March 19, 2016, 05:50:52 PM
That 1957 date for an H3AG cord is plausible. It was superseded by the vinyl-jacketed H3AJ straight cord. Here is what I stated in another topic:
By 1952,  new black 302s were equipped with  straight neoprene-jacketed cords with rubber conductors. They were coded D3AY for the mounting (line) cord and H3AG for the handset cord. These new cords were also used on remanufactured 302s.

Rubber cords were available starting in 1938, but in very limited use. After the war, neoprene was used instead of rubber.  Black Vinyl-jacketed cords weren't produced until c. 1958.


All that agrees with my observations.
The H3AD is, I think, a rubber cord, but I find it hard to distinguish rubber at this time from the early Neoprene. I think one can tell by their thickness. Neoprene is thinner.   The H3AD is much thicker than the H3AG.
It seems to me, H3AD was only used in refurbishments starting in 1948 until the H3AG arrived, although my last H3AD cord is only dated III 50 (you have IV 50).
So were are still missing the period of 1951 for straight black cords.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 19, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
Someone who has a bucket full of S-hook restraints salvaged from junk cords could really help us out here with the dates. But the H3AD cords are rarely defective. They have extra cotton wrapped around the conductors. The H3AF spring cords are almost always noisy.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 19, 2016, 07:52:00 PM
D3AY (rubber or Neoprene)

I have several from III 49 I 49  to  I 56


Quote
   D3AY               52 -- 56
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 20, 2016, 12:03:05 PM
What is the oldest date that anyone has seen a 95A apparatus blank on a 500 set?

In 1952,  500 and 501 type sets were redesignated as A/B sets and similarly 500T and 501T sets became J/K sets (e.g.: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15756.msg165008#msg165008).

Prior to 1952 there is probably no way to determine whether a set was actually issued with a blank as a manual phone.


hmmm.   probably this phone:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9704.msg103721#msg103721   But there is no way to be sure that the dial blank was original.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: andre_janew on March 20, 2016, 12:56:15 PM
I've read about early 500 sets being found with GF handsets.  What reason would there be for this?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 20, 2016, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: andre_janew on March 20, 2016, 12:56:15 PM
I've read about early 500 sets being found with GF handsets.  What reason would there be for this?

The GF handset was not created until 1955 to make a 5302 set look like a 500-type, while providing the same zoning compatibility with the old 300-series set.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: andre_janew on March 20, 2016, 01:04:18 PM
Then it would probably be a replacement for a broken or defective G-1 handset, perhaps.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 20, 2016, 10:17:25 PM
Do you want to add an H3T handset cord, found on 302?

H3T    II 54     cloth, brown -9

I don't know of other colors, have no BSP guidance on this.  C36.101 i13 5505 only lists the H4T in brown and colors, so H3T probably was available in colors too.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 20, 2016, 10:41:08 PM
As stated in 2.01 (c), the letters have no particular significance; i. e., the choice of T for H3T doesn't imply that it would share any characteristics -- such as availabity of jacket colors -- with the H4T. Notice that the H3AD and H4AD do not share the same jacket material. Also, while some cotton jacketed cords are available in colors, such as H3C, others are not (H4U).



Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: ..... on March 22, 2016, 05:33:08 AM
I picked up this 1953 WE 500 with matching numbers. I hope the pictures help with filling in the date ranges.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15886.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15886.0)

CDN Doug
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 22, 2016, 11:36:42 AM
Quote from: Autonut on March 22, 2016, 05:33:08 AM
I picked up this 1953 WE 500 with matching numbers. I hope the pictures help with filling in the date ranges.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15886.0 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15886.0)

CDN Doug

It would help to know the code no. and date on the cords (it's on the restraints).
Handset cord -- H4BA? H4BF?
Mounting cord -- D3BB?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: ..... on March 22, 2016, 03:31:51 PM
I took the phone apart again, here is what I found.

Handset cord is a 53 H3BF IV

Mounting cord is a 57 D3BB 25-0

I guess it's not all matching numbers.

CDN Doug
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: JimH on March 22, 2016, 05:29:53 PM
Not sure if anyone has ever covered why they started stamping dates on the bottom of the "500"s, and not the 302s.  From about 1950 forward, all sets were date-stamped on the bottom. I wonder if it was a throw-back to when all of the desk sets were had fabric or leather covered bottoms?

Jim
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on March 22, 2016, 05:39:55 PM
Quote from: JimH on March 22, 2016, 05:29:53 PM
Not sure if anyone has ever covered why they started stamping dates on the bottom of the "500"s, and not the 302s.  From about 1950 forward, all sets were date-stamped on the bottom. I wonder if it was a throw-back to when all of the desk sets were had fabric or leather covered bottoms?

Jim
That decision probably involved the fact that all components of the 500 set were mounted on the base plate and the base plate could be used for manual sets as well as dial sets.  The date was now visible without opening the set, previously it was stamped inside next to the ringer coil. Housings were still dated separately, before and after.

The 500 set also brought along new manufacturing techniques, perhaps the stamps where now applied by a machine, although there still appears to be some variation as to location.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: JimH on March 22, 2016, 06:25:01 PM
Also, the progression of how they marked the bottom.  From the silver paint of the early 500s with the black bases, to the black ink on the goldish bases starting about 1966.  Refurbished sets had date stickers placed over the old dates by the early 70s.  New sets starting about the late 70s had simple square white labels (with rounded corners) with the model number and date printed on them.

Jim
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 22, 2016, 07:12:45 PM
Quote from: JimH on March 22, 2016, 06:25:01 PM
Also, the progression of how they marked the bottom.  From the silver paint of the early 500s with the black bases, to the black ink on the goldish bases starting about 1966.  Refurbished sets had date stickers placed over the old dates by the early 70s.  New sets starting about the late 70s had simple square white labels (with rounded corners) with the model number and date printed on them.

Jim
New 500s still had ink stamp for model and date through the end of production in 1986. I have seen the white labels on some new sets such as the Trimline 210s. Here is a 500 from 1983.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 22, 2016, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: Autonut on March 22, 2016, 03:31:51 PM
I took the phone apart again, here is what I found.

Handset cord is a 53 H3BF IV

Mounting cord is a 57 D3BB 25-0

I guess it's not all matching numbers.

CDN Doug

Thanks for providing the dates. They narrow the gap for cord availability.

The 25 ft. mounting cord was probably added in the field. The original factory cord would have been the standard 5'6".
25 ft. cords were not promoted. An extension set was usually recommended rather than the "extra long" cord.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: ..... on March 22, 2016, 08:07:57 PM
The mounting cord isn't 25' anymore. Some one cut it down to 6' 10" and added a modular adapter.

CDN Doug
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on April 02, 2016, 10:33:44 AM
INDEX to date range tables

Telephone Types

Components:


PS: I moved this index to the current end of posts to make it easier to find.
Title: Transmitters dated in 1945
Post by: unbeldi on April 17, 2016, 05:18:48 PM




As an add-on to previous observations of S– prefixes, here is an F1 transmitter with the S designation:   S8/45, undoubtably still made in St. Paul, MN. about a year after the factory was opened.

The condition of this transmitter is almost mint, if it weren't for the testing time stamps. Has outstanding voice quality.

(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11422.0;attach=140479;image)
PS 2016-05-12:
Here is a very similarly marked (S7/45) F1 transmitter in the second picture:(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11422.0;attach=141848;image)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 17, 2016, 05:36:28 PM
Not sure where to add the S8/45. Here are ringer dates already listed:
            Steel--painted black                        S-12-44.  S-1-45 -- S-4-45 S-7-45  S-12-45
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on April 17, 2016, 05:39:20 PM
Well, no reason to add them anywhere for now.  Just providing a reference point for later digestion or whatever might come along.

I think the important observation with all these is, that the S designation was not component specific, all components could be or were marked in this manner, and this supports the idea that it was for the manufacturing site.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on April 27, 2016, 07:33:41 PM
This vendor sold a D3AL cord, that they claimed to have a date of II-42, that appears to have a basket-type weave.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322078598709

From the description:

This is an original brown braided cloth Western Electric telephone line cord. It is a brown three wire cloth cord that is 77" long end to end. It is used between 302 desk set or earlier desk sets like 202 and candlestick ringer boxes and the telephone line terminal block. The braided cloth exterior cover is in excellent condition. The internal insulation is also in excellent condition. The cord is flexible and looks like new.

The retaining ring on one end is marked:
5 - 6
D 3 AL
II 42

This cord is used with Western Electric 202 and 302 desk sets.



Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 27, 2016, 09:10:46 PM
Thanks.

Of course, D3AL would not have been used on 202s (not enough conductors) nor even 102s (wing restraint suitable for 42A connecting block, but not for attaching to subset).

On the other hand, we now have confirmation that the D3AK cord-- which does have S-hook restraints on both ends, suitable for desk stands and 102s -- was the only standard mounting cord for non-portable color 302s, at least by 1955.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on April 27, 2016, 09:42:04 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on April 27, 2016, 09:10:46 PM
On the other hand, we now have confirmation that the D3AK cord-- which does have S-hook restraints on both ends, suitable for desk stands and 102s -- was the only standard mounting cord for non-portable color 302s, at least by 1955.

I am not sure how you correlated that with the D3AL, but in any case I've had no doubt about that.
The D3AK cords on the colored sets are the only kind that usually have matching dates to the sets (with a quarter, max 2). By my observations, any other cord is always mismatched, meaning older by some not so reasonable time, with the usual replacement being the D3AM cord for the plug.  It appears, the D3AM were stocked on the truck and installed when needed to comply with the order.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 27, 2016, 10:00:27 PM
I was trying to give the seller some slack ("partial credit") by agreeing that there is one cord suitable for both 102s and 302s: the D3AK, at least if we are talking about color 302s, though perhaps only the 1949-1954 color 302s. I haven't checked the 1939 Catalog or pre-1942 BSPs for Mounting Cords for color 302s.


Bell System Practices                                              ADDENDUM C36.101     [Supplements C36.101, Issue 12]
Station Installation and Maintenance                     ADDENDUM C63.701
                                                                               Issue 2, August, 1954
                                                                               AT&T Standard


                                STATION CORDS

                                    ALL TYPES

[snip]


Add the following tables which list the cords obtainable
in colors, other than brown textile or black jacketed.


302-TYPE TELEPHONE SETS AND OTHER STATION
                           APPARATUS


Cord                                                                            Available Colors [for all cords listed]
Code                      For Use With                            Dash No.      Color

*D3AK                    302 Type                                     --4             Ivory                       
                                                                                 --8             Silver
*D3AM                   302 Type with                           --12             Dark Gold
                              273A or 283B Plug                    --16            Old Rose
                                                                               --18            Gray Green
*D4U                     202 Type                                   --19            Dark Blue
                                                                               --20            Pekin Red
*D4W                   202 Type
                            with 283 Plug

+H3C                 E1 and F1A Handset

H3P                     F1A Handset--Retractile

* Obtainable in standard,  9', 13', and 25' Lengths
+ Obtainable in standard and 9' lengths
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on April 30, 2016, 01:05:38 PM
We don't have any dates in the cord record for D2E.

Here is one:  D2E, 5–6, III-46,   brown cloth, basket weave, paper label around S-hook restraint, restraints on both ends are a gray metal, not brass.
Lugs on the wall end are round eyelets for plug.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 12:21:05 PM
Here is an F1 transmitter made in August 1949.
It is marked  8-49-I

I believe this is the earliest or one of the earliest components that I have found with the –I suffix.

Originally, when I got curious about these markings, I believed I had only found the –I marking on ringers and bases. But they are present on other components that have nothing to do with the electrical or magnetic properties of the ringers.  I also have measured –I-marked ringers twice in terms of their impedance characteristics as a function of frequency, and the differences with 'normal' ringers appear to be within the errors of measurement, or within reasonable tolerances of specs.

I have speculated that the S– prefix indicated the manufacturing location in St. Paul, MN, which was purchased by WECo in 1944 to reestablish post-war telephone production. The observations indicate the S– prefix is present on potentially all types of components that have ink-stamped markings, and they are only observed for the time that appears reasonable that the plant was producing subscriber telephone sets.  During the war, the Hawthorne plant, which had produced the majority or all telephone sets previously, was rapidly converted to manufacturing war-time equipment.  By November 1942 telephone production seized on orders from the War Production Board.

After the WPB eased restrictions, Hawthorne was freed once again for some of its traditional functions, and reports exist that describe equipment being moved from St. Paul to Hawthorne during weekends and nights, on trucks making the four or so hour drive, to resume production on Monday without much interruption of productivity.

Indeed, some time—perhaps a year or more?—after the appearance of the S– prefixes, we find H– prefixes on various components.

By my observations, the –I suffices only exist on 300-series components made between 2nd half of 1949 and the early 50s.

Indianapolis officially opened in Fall of 1950, by my readings of Bell sources.  Given the size of the place, I would say it is unreasonable that they didn't have any operations there in various subunits previous to the official opening.   Only 18 months after the opening, they had already produced five million telephone there (by June 1952).

This site however claims that the plant opened in 1948: http://www.chipsetc.com/att--bell-labs--western-electric.html

Does the –I suffix denote manufacturing in Indianapolis?

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 08, 2016, 01:40:37 PM
Updated Reply #99 Table:

" A" suffix --                                     S-3-47A - 9-48A
         Indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate.
   
"  H-" prefix -- Hawthorne?               H-1-46 - H-3-46

"  I-"  prefix/suffix -- Indianapolis?   8-49-I -  4-52-I

" S-"  prefix -- St. Paul, MN?             S-12-44 --   S-3-47A

Examples of A-, H-, I- and S- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

1944:
Ringer, Baseplate:  S-12-44

1945:
Ringer:       S-1-45, S-4-45, S-7-45, S-12-45
Transmitter: S8/45

1946:
Dial:    H-1-46  H-3-46
Ringer: S-2-46, S-6-46
Baseplate: S-6-46

1947:
Baseplate: S-3-47A, 11-47A,
Ringer:      S-3-47A

1948:
Baseplate, ringer 2-48-A
Baseplate: 9-48A

1949:

F1 Transmitter Unit: 8-49-I
Base, ringer:   12-49-I
Induction coil:  IV-49 I
 

1950:   
Dial:  I-1-50
Ringer  1-50-I  -- 6-50-I
Baseplate 1-50-I --  6-50-I
Induction coil:   II 50 I
F1 Transmitter Unit:  1-50-I -- 2-50-I

1951:
F1 Transmitter Unit: 8-51-I

1952
Ringer: 2-52-I -- 4-52-I
Baseplate: 2-52-I, 3-52-I, 4-52-I

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I


500 Set:

Dial: 7D 1-53 I
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 06:10:04 PM
Do you recall where this entry came from?

1953:
Baseplate and Ringer:  4-53-I

Ok, I answered my own question.  It came from me in post 102.
I have to withdraw that. Yesterday I noticed that I had one ringer marked in my documentation as 4-53-I, but when checking the phone, I found this was not so, and it is only 4-53, no I.
It looked suspicious to me when I saw it yesterday in my documentation, and now on your table as well.
It would certainly be the latest such date, but I do believe 1952 was the last year of these I-markings.
Sorry about that.

An entry I just came across for another F1 transmitter is:
F1, 8-51-I

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 06:28:29 PM
For an entry in 1952, we have this 302: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15975.msg165421#msg165421

ringer and base: 4-52-I
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 06:39:02 PM
Another 302:

302 Ringer and base:  2-52-I


...and I have another base marked 3-52-I, on which the ringer was replaced.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 06:52:02 PM
Here is a 5302 base dated 6-50

Ringer, base, and induction coil:   6-50-I,  II 50 I

I also have a 6-50 base on an old-rose 302, which does NOT have the –I, but it has a 2-50-I F1 transmitter.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 07:06:13 PM
302 Base, ringer, and induction coil:
12-49-I,   IV-49-I


I think I covered every year now, 1949, 1950, 1951, and 1952, with at least one part.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 07:21:53 PM
From these base plate pictures it is also apparent that by 1952 Western Electric changed their method of corrosion protection on many of the parts.  Ringer frames, condenser brackets, screws  now have a yellowish or golden finish, presumably some cadmium-based coating.

Cadmium coatings protect by being preferentially corroded themselves instead of the substrate they are to protect, even when a small area of the protected metal is exposed.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 08:52:03 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 08, 2016, 06:52:02 PM
Here is a 5302 base dated 6-50

Ringer, base, and induction coil:   6-50-I,  II 50 I

I also have a 6-50 base on an old-rose 302, which does NOT have the –I, but it has a 2-50-I F1 transmitter.

Having bases marked with and without the –I in the same month leaves the question open, whether they were made in different places, especially as one of them was found on a color 302 (without I).   Were the color 302s made in a different place all this time from 1949?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 09, 2016, 12:22:16 PM
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks



1936-1937 302s
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 11:50:30 AM »  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13505.msg141193#msg141193

Early 302s might have E1E or F1A handsets; and either 4H-, 5H-type dials or 82-A apparatus blanks. Small plungers and short "ears" were used on 1936 and most 1937 sets.


This table shows the parts used on unmodified sets as found.

Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


E1E and 4H (Est. IV 36 -- I 37)
 

IV 36      4H        149B            E1E             Not        I 36           ?              x                  x                                                   *
             III 36
Feet not original -- Sold for $560 (Ebay 2015-01-25 item number: 251798720172)
www.ebay.com/itm/251798720172
                                                                                                           H3C              D4S
I 37      82A-3       N/A          E1E            Not           I 37        1/37          '37              I 37            137                                *
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13433.0
Sold for $437 (Ebay 2015-01-18)

not sure how original this one is, since the dial has the repair shop green label:
I 37     4H            149B            E1E               Not
           IV 36        IV 36            1-37
no sale 5/17/16 ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/I-1937-WORKING-WESTERN-ELECTRIC-302-EXCELLENT-WITH-MATCHING-NUMBERS-/111995903935     
====================================================================

E1E  or F1A (ungrooved) , 4H or 5H (Est. 3/37 -- 9/37)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


3-37     4H                            F1A                 Not
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106999#msg106999

4-37    5H          149B          E1E                Yes         I 37      3/37
                           I 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17761.msg183522#msg183522

5-37    82-A      N/A          E1E               ?                                     
                                            5-37

6-37     4H       149B          F1A              Not
                        II 37        6 08 37

6-37    5H         149B         F1A              Not
          II 37                                                                                                                                                               II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.0
Sold for $499.99--new old stock (except hs cord) with box

7-37        5H        149B         F1A            Not
p2016-04-10
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182078924998 $292

9-37      2>4       132             F1A           Not       8-13-37     9/37     II 37                x                              9 03 37           III 37
                                           9?-?-37     
Sold for $152.50 (Ebay 2015-01-19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151549117049

ADDITIONAL:
9-37     5H         149B          F1A              Not     
            III 37                      9-29-37
listed 5-22-16 Ebay SOLD 5/29/16 for $294.99 seller mark4589
http://www.ebay.com/itm/112005325104
====================================================================================================
Field Trial Sets with Grooved F1A handsets and small plungers (Est. 6/37-10/37)/(About 7/37?)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


6-37       5H                        F1A              YES       6 24 -37  8/36                                                             6 15 37
                                          6 11 37
listed Ebay 2016-05-22
                                     
7-37      82-A      N/A           F1A             Yes         7-14-37   6/37        H3C                 x                                                  II 37
                                        6-12-37                                                     II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11011.msg117827#msg117827
Bell Labs Trial Set #8224-- Sold for $150 at January, 2014 Maitland show

7-37            4H                  F1A            Yes
                III 37              6-03-37       
Field Trial Set #8121         

7-37               5H                   F1A               Yes
                       III 37                 7-?-37       
(June 2015 Ebay purchase--$89 (O-74)---mostly original)

10-37         5HB                  F1A             Yes         
                  IV 37           10-25-37
sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086
====================================================================================================

Standard: Grooved F1A handset, 5HB dial, large plungers (11-37 - up)


Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


11-37      5H                          F1A              Yes
     
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106850#msg106850

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 09, 2016, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 09, 2016, 12:22:16 PM
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks


Many, if not most of the so-called early and ever-so 'original' 302s that people sell on eBay, really aren't original at all, they are most likely falsified constructed sets, with other intentions than being authentic.
If it is shiny, one should probably be cautious. :-)
Many have E1 handsets without grooves, which IMHO were NOT used in the first half of 1937 anymore.  I do think all new E1 handsets by that time had grooves.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Jim Stettler on May 09, 2016, 04:37:51 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 09, 2016, 12:22:16 PM
Trying to find examples of factory original 302 sets with E1-type handsets, I'm coming up short. If you have any examples, please share. Thanks



1936-1937 302s
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2015, 11:50:30 AM »  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13505.msg141193#msg141193

Early 302s might have E1E or F1A handsets; and either 4H-, 5H-type dials or 82-A apparatus blanks. Small plungers and short "ears" were used on 1936 and most 1937 sets.


This table shows the parts used on unmodified sets as found.

Base      Dial/      Number     Handset      Grooved/    Rec.       Xmtr.       Handset           Mtg          Mpc.         Rec               Ind.
pan       blank      Plate                       Not grooved                                  Cord             Cord                         Cap               Coil


E1E and 4H (Est. IV 36 -- I 37)
 

IV 36      4H        149B            E1E             Not        I 36           ?              x                  x                                                   *
             III 36
Feet not original -- Sold for $560 (Ebay 2015-01-25 item number: 251798720172)
www.ebay.com/itm/251798720172
                                                                                                           H3C              D4S
I 37      82A-3       N/A          E1E            Not           I 37        1/37          '37              I 37            137                                *
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13433.0
Sold for $437 (Ebay 2015-01-18)
====================================================================

E1E  or F1A (ungrooved) , 4H or 5H (Est. 3/37 -- 9/37)

3-37 4H                              F1A                   Not
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106999#msg106999

5-37    82-A      N/A          E1E               ?                                     
                                      5-37

6-37     4H               F1 6 08 37          Ungrooved
                      (149B II 37; dial date unknown)

6-37    5H         149B         F1A              Not
          II 37                                                                                                                                                               II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.0
Sold for $499.99--new old stock (except hs cord) with box

7-37           5H            149B         F1A                  Not
p2016-04-10
http://www.ebay.com/itm/182078924998 $292

9-37      2>4       132             F1A           Not       8-13-37     9/37     II 37                x                              9 03 37           III 37
                                           9?-?-37     
Sold for $152.50 (Ebay 2015-01-19)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151549117049
====================================================================================================
Field Trial Sets with Grooved F1A handsets (About 7/37?)


7-37      82-A      N/A           F1A             Yes         7-14-37   6/37        H3C                 x                                                  II 37
                                      6-12-37                                                     II 37
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11011.msg117827#msg117827
Bell Labs Trial Set -- Sold for $150 at January, 2014 Maitland show

7-37            4H (III 37)                 F1                  grooved
Field Trial Set #8121

====================================================================================================

Standard: Grooved F1A handset, 5HB dial, large plungers (11-37 - up)

11-37      5H                          F1A              Yes
     
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10046.msg106850#msg106850



Here is a link to Hal Beldon's chart of small plunger 302's
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm

You can always  find the link on Paul's site.

Jim S.

BTW: I have a transparent small plunger non-vented housing for a 302. It has no dates.This is the only plastic small plunger set I know of.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 09, 2016, 05:48:19 PM
These date ranges are meant to expand on Paul's and Hal's charts by including actual sets as found, which have not been refurbished. I'm trying to get exact dates, not just "3rd Quarter" or "Late 1937."
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 09, 2016, 06:23:46 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 09, 2016, 03:35:37 PM
Many, if not most of the so-called early and ever-so 'original' 302s that people sell on eBay, really aren't original at all, they are most likely falsified constructed sets, with other intentions than being authentic.
If it is shiny, one should probably be cautious. :-)
Many have E1 handsets without grooves, which IMHO were NOT used in the first half of 1937 anymore.  I do think all new E1 handsets by that time had grooves.


Not all E1-type handsets in 1937 had grooves:
11 02 37 is the latest reported without grooves
135 is the earliest grooved handle reported

I agree that many of the '37s on Ebay may have been "overrestored" by, for example, adding 4H dials or E1E handsets. It's much easier to locate 4H dials made in 1937, than 5Hs (with molded pulse pawl). Also, many more '37 E1s than  '37 F1s. 202s dated 1937 are also more plentiful than 302s from that year, at least in those that have survived. I believe that in 1937, these  new 202s still had only 4H dials or apparatus blanks,  and E1E handsets. [While by 1939, new 202s were factory equipped with F1 handsets, these may have been produced mainly for use with magneto subsets, and, as such, not furnished with dials.] So there may not have been 202s ever manufactured with 5H dials. (653A Wall sets did have 5H dials by 1939).

It's often possible to detect improper "cordage" --  the way the wires are dressed. A more detailed inventory should reveal lag times for individual parts, that an eager "restorer" might violate by having dates too closely matched. Sometimes, the phones being offered for sale are not even correctly wired. I'm trying to weed these out before adding them to the chart. Even if a few undetected non-originals slip in, there should still be a general timeline for parts used in factory-wired sets.



            E-type handsets:
            no groove handle  (1928-1937)
                 6-line logo with patent dates
                 9-line logo with patent dates                                 [228] - [Feb. '31]*
                 5-line logo
                      red patent numbers inside                              *[May '31] - [MAR '32]
                      white pat. numbers inside                               [5/34]
                      mfr. date inside                                              636 - 11  02 37
            grooved handle (1935-1939)                                          135 (1/35) - 3 27 39
Title: WECo 302/304 parts date prefixes and suffixes
Post by: unbeldi on May 09, 2016, 08:42:48 PM
WECo 302/304 parts dates with prefixes or suffixes.

Background

Between 1944 and ca. 1952 many 302 parts have date stamps that add the letters A, H, I, and S as prefix or suffix, or both. This is an attempt to delineate the exact time frames when each of these letters were used, and to decode their meaning.

The letter A is documented in a Bell System Practice and means that the base plate is made from aluminum, rather than steel. This change effected the performance of ringers, which were consequently adjusted to compensate the effect.
Ref: BSP Section C31.208 i1 5406 B-Type Ringers; Maintenance, Paragraph 1.05.

No BSPs have been found that explain the letters S, H, and I.

My working hypothesis is that the letters S, H, and I indicated the manufacturing or assembly location of the sets or parts:
* S – St. Paul, MN
* H – Hawthorne Works
* I  – Indianapolis Works

This source states that Indianapolis Works opened in 1948. http://www.chipsetc.com/att--bell-labs--western-electric.html, and so does the AT&T TechChannel: http://techchannel.att.com/play-video.cfm/2011/9/19/AT&T-Archives-Draw-Me-a-Telephone



*Last update:  2017-05-19

























Year         


S
(St. Paul MN ?)

H
(Hawthorne ?)   

I
(Indianapolis ?)

A
(Aluminum base)

1944
S-11-44 base
S-11-44 ringer
S-IV-44 IND
S 10-24-44 HA1,
S11/44 transmitter,
94 [9/44] solid F1 handle.
S-12-44 base, ringer
S12/44 transmitter
 





1945
S1/45 transmitter
S-1-45 ringer
S-I-45 induction coil (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4192.msg54447#msg54447)
S-4-45 ringer
S4-45 dial
S 511 45 Housing
S-II-45 induction coil
S-6-45 ringer (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10867.msg116154#msg116154)
S-7-45 ringer
S7/45 transmitter
S8/45 transmitter
S-9-45 base, ringer
S-III-45 induction coil
S-9-45 base, ringer
S-III-45 induction coil
S-10-45 base, ringer
S III 45 induction coil
S-10-45 base
S-IV-45 induction coil
S101345 98329 housing
S-12-45 ringer
S-12-45 base, ringer
S-12-45 base, ringer
S-IV-45 induction coil
S-IV-45 IND 101B (link (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16421.msg170035#msg170035))

 





1946
S-2-46 dial
S-4-46 base
S-4-46 dial
S-6-46 dial
S-6-46 base
S9/46 transmitter
S-10-46 base, ringer
S10 18 46 housing
S-IV-46 induction coil
S10-46* 5H* dial (link (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7736.msg85276#msg85276))
S-10-46 base
S IV 46 Induction coil
S-12-46 base

H-1-46 dial
H-2-46 dial (loose, in box)
H-3-46 dial
H-3-46 dial (link (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16253.msg168440#msg168440))
H-5-46 dial (only, on 202)
H-6-46 dial 5H* (only)
H-7-46 dial (loose (http://www.ebay.com/itm/272329889969))
H-8-46 dial
H-8-46 dial in 6/46 302
H-10-46 5H* dial
 





1947
S-3-47A base, ringer
   
S-3-47A base, ringer
4-47-A base, ringer
4-47-A base, ringer
6-47-A base, ringer
6-47-A base, ringer (BU2-1412)
8-47-A base, ringer
10-47-A base, ringer
11-47A base





1948
   
A 2/48 ringer, 2/48 base (Al)
2-48-A base, ringer
5-48-A base, ringer
6-48-A base, ringer
9-48A base
9-48-A base, ringer





1949 *
3-49-I base, ringer
I 49 I  IND 101A
II 49 I IND 101A (in 634A)
6-49 I transmitter
6-29-49-I HA1 receiver
8-49-I base, ringer
III 49 I induction coil
6-49-I A base, ringer
II 49 I induction coil
8-49-I transmitter
9-49-I transmitter in 305GR-18
I-10-49 dial (link (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=183.msg1535#msg1535))
12-49-I base, ringer
IV 49 I induction coil








6-49-I A base, ringer
II 49 I induction coil





1950
I-1-50 dial
I-2-50 dial
I-4-50 dial (link (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=752.msg8851#msg8851))
1-50-I base, ringer
1-50-I transmitter
2-50-I transmitter
II 50 I induction coil
7-50-I base
II 50 I induction coil
5-50-I ringer
6-50-I base, ringer
12-50-I base, ringer





1951
5-51-I base and ringer
6-51-I 466-AC-3 base, ringer
8-51-I transmitter
10-51-I transmitter (NIB)
12-51-I base
12-51-I base and ringer





1952   
2-52-I base, ringer (B3A)
2-52-I base, ringer
2-52-I transmitter
3-52-I base plate
3-52-I ringer
4-52-I base, ringer
4-52-I base, ringer
10-52-I base, ringer
 





1953 *       





1954 *       






* 1949: Production of color sets is resumed (starting Dec 1948) after having been suspended due to war time restrictions in 1942.

* 1953: Production of black 302/304s stopped, but specialty sets, such as 302AA/C(H13), 307s, 400-series, and color sets continues.

* 1954: Production of color sets is discontinued mid-year.

Sets with –I markings are so far always black sets. No plastic color sets, that still have original factory parts, have been found with the marking.

Of course, the compilation does not include the many sets we find today, that have no extra letter designations with the date stamps.


Previous relevant topics:
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg167475#msg167475
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg166432#msg166432
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg155069#msg155069
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7736.0
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15203.0
* http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg153220#msg153220
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 17, 2016, 07:01:04 PM
This 202 has a 5H dial marked  H-5-46

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301922179728

Or is it  H-3-46 ?


Here is another one:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/281873864746
H-8-46

Could it be that only dials were marked with H- ?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: andre_janew on May 18, 2016, 12:08:16 PM
That second one is on a 302.  It is supposed to be a WW2 era phone.  Really?  With 1946 dates on it?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 18, 2016, 01:23:22 PM
So far we only have H- marks on dials, and all in 1946.
We need more data, but given the rarity of H- marks, I have to wonder.
The S- marks stop suddenly by Q1 47, when the aluminum bases took off,
and no more H- marks.

From documents we know that some manufacturing equipment was moved from St. Paul to Hawthorne in 1946.  But other than ringer parts, this is not well documented yet.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 21, 2016, 11:42:05 PM
Here is the cutover for date encoding marks on 557B receiver elements, unless these types were used with some overlap.

430 (Q4 1930) --->  I 31  (Q1 1931)


PS: Here is another I 31 with pretty vermillion stamps:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/222128720660
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 22, 2016, 03:31:23 PM
Here is a new-in-box  F1 transmitter dated 10-51-I.
It does appear unused, as the contact surfaces are uniformly oxidized, and pretty dark at that, so it hasn't been polished in a long time.  There are no signs of contact scratches.

Is it correct to assume that this is a factory carton and not from a distributing house?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 22, 2016, 04:25:55 PM
The parts that had gone through the repair shops would normally be placed in cartons with green ink, and/or "Telco Property" tape on the boxes. Bill said they didn't always take the time to stamp dates on the transmitters before reusing them in the repair shop, later called "service center."  ("Distributing House" contained both warehouses for new items as well as repair shops for telco-owned returned items.)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 22, 2016, 04:56:21 PM
Here is a box from a shop, no print on it on any side, but that doesn't prevent them from using printed boxes, I suppose.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 10:14:22 AM
Here is another E1 with pretty vermillion stampings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222128720660

I 31
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 28, 2016, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 10:14:22 AM
Here is another E1 with pretty vermillion stampings:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222128720660

I 31

Since the handset is an  E1E (625A xmtr), and the seller is a collector, we can't be sure that the 557B receiver is original to the handset.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 10:43:21 AM
Still, it would be hard to reproduce or exchange the stampings inside the transmitter.
And the combination with the handle fits the pattern I have seen.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 28, 2016, 11:17:07 AM
The capacitor inside the 625A transmitter is dated I 35. The receiver is dated I 31. Even without the date on the capacitor, that style transmitter is too recent to have been original to a 1931 handset. Also, the caps are not matched -- the xmtr mouthpiece has a groove, while the receiver cap does not.

I'll agree that it is possible that the receiver is original to the handset. The transmitter may have been added in the field, or, in any case, replaced without changing the receiver, since only the transmitters were upgraded when converting from an E1B to E1E.         "I 31" also does not conflict with the dates found on all original handsets:


                 9-line logo with patent dates                                 [228] - [FEB '31]*
                 5-line logo
                      red patent numbers inside                              *[MAY '31] - [MAR '32]


The dates in brackets were based on the 395B transmitters found on these E1B handsets, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 11:59:12 AM
I meant not to dispel or refute other markings or date ranges,
but just to record that there are other markings that aren't accounted for.  Whether these occurred in parallel or only regionally or whatever remains to be seen.

The type of transmitter or the dates thereof are not really important for this one aspect. We know when the F1 transmitter came out, and we know that millions of them had been used to replace bad 395B parts, whether in the field or in refurbishing, by the time the 302 came out. That is not the point.

We don't have to have 100% factory-original telephone sets to observe parts history and draw correct conclusions.
The worst endeavor would be to ignore some parts that clearly exist, just because something else was changed.
The pattern is established nevertheless. I have seen at most half a dozen of these combinations: When the handle had bright patent dates as shown, the receiver had similar markings.
We should note also when they don't match, but I haven't seen that.  Surely it would be logical to exist.  But the fact is that receivers needed replacements only rarely.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 12:06:23 PM
Perhaps these were simply parts that were sold to independents, or a similar non-technical reason.
This would agree with the practice by WECo to mark F1 transmitters, for Signal Corps TS-9 handsets with a patent number.


Notice that the receiver cap does not have the groove,  same situation on mine, btw.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on May 28, 2016, 12:29:04 PM
While non-standard cords (and entrance to the wrong subset opening) and polished brass gongs are red flags, indicating recent modifications, the main reason for using only all original handsets is that the pre-1935 handles are not dated. Therefore, the dates have to be determined by the dates on surrounding parts (transmitter case or condenser, receiver unit, H3B cord, B-, C- or D-type mounting, dial, number plate,  mounting cord). If the other 7 dates match, it is more likely that the E1 handle is also from the same date range.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on May 28, 2016, 12:34:28 PM
Well, yes, if they were dated, we wouldn't have this discussion, lol.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on June 29, 2016, 07:01:54 PM

Found a 302 dated S-11-44 with S-11-44 ringer,  S-IV-44 IND, 4-44 5H, S11/44 F1 unit,
S 10-24-44 HA1, 94 [9/44] solid F1 handle.

Quote from: unbeldi on May 09, 2016, 08:42:48 PM
WECo 302/304 parts dates with prefixes or suffixes.


last update:  2016-06-27









Year         


S
(St. Paul MN ?)

H
(Hawthorne ?)   

I
(Indianapolis ?)

A
(Aluminum base)

1944
S-12-44 base, ringerr
[/td][/tr][/table]
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 29, 2016, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on June 29, 2016, 07:01:54 PM
Found a 302 dated S-11-44 with S-11-44 ringer,  S-IV-44 IND, 4-44 5H, S11/44 F1 unit,
S 10-24-44 HA1, 94 [9/44] solid F1 handle.


Thanks, recorded.   What kind of inscription does the F1 handle have?  Long format (''... manufactured ...'')  or short (... made ...) ?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on June 29, 2016, 09:12:38 PM
"Manufactured by"
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 29, 2016, 09:56:36 PM
One more question, does it have separate terminal screws for BK and R cord spades?
In my tables, it is either a type 3 or 4 handset, depending on the number of screws in the transmitter cavity.
The latest No. 3 I have recorded so far is 7/45 ("75"), while the latest No. 4 is 6/41 ("61")
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on June 29, 2016, 10:33:10 PM
No separate screws for the spade tips.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on June 30, 2016, 04:04:13 PM
Found the earliest date on a part with marking "I", among my subscriber sets, a 634A with an induction coil of Q2 1949.


The  table of  component markings with S, H, I, and A (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg167552#msg167552) takes more and more a form of clean separation of features into years.

S markings 1944 to Q1 1947,  H markings only on dials in 1946,  aluminum bases (A markings) only in 1947 and 1948, and I markings starting in early or mid 1949 to end of 1952.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 23, 2016, 02:11:03 PM
3-49-I 302 with 101A dated I 49 I:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262538284086
Title: IV-36 G1 handset mounting
Post by: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 12:56:27 PM
I found what appears to be a sample of the first year of manufacturing of the G1 handset mounting, certainly the earliest I have seen, as well as recorded here.

It is dated IV 36, but was well refurbished several times, including in 12-54 with date stamps next to the original date, and on the dial.

I believe the earliest BSPs for the G1 are also dated in 1936.

As shown in the picture, the unit also has a No. 61A filter, dated III 48, with a copper clamp holding it to the main rib of switch assembly. I suppose, the combination of a 61A with the clamp is called a No. 61M. Never knew, until now, just how the filter was mounted in these.

The earliest listing in the tables here, was I-37.   (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg125730#msg125730)
20879
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 29, 2016, 01:19:11 PM
C32.104, Issue 1, 9-15-36:

The table lists 211s are shown with 4H-type dials and E1B-3 handsets. (Odd, since E1E handsets were available by 1935.)

No distinction in the hand telephone set assembly codes for sidetone vs. anti-sidetone for 211s.
"The earlier 101 type hand telephone sets are not listed as they are the same as the 201 type."

[On the earliest sets, "G1" is stamped on the back of the housing, rather than below the cradle.]
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 01:34:44 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2016, 01:19:11 PM

On the earliest sets, "G1" is stamped on the back of the housing, rather than below the cradle.

Indeed the housing has "G1" punched just below the mounting cord exit, rather than the cradle side--picture added to previous post.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
I see that you are tracking the location of the type marking ("G1").

II-40 with 41A has "G1" located on the cradle side.
I think we had other sets from the 1930s on the forum.

Do you have the Issue 1 of BSP C32.104 in PDF or image form?



PS: This IV-37 G1 shows the new location already:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg130342#msg130342
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on July 29, 2016, 08:09:05 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
I see that you are tracking the location of the type marking ("G1").

II-40 with 41A has "G1" located on the cradle side.

Is that an all-dates-matching set?

Quote from: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
I think we had other sets from the 1930s on the forum.
Do you have the Issue 1 of BSP C32.104 in PDF or image form?

No.

Quote from: unbeldi on July 29, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
PS: This IV-37 G1 shows the new location already:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg130342#msg130342
Unfortunately, that phone does not have all matching dates; so, the housing may have been updated.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 30, 2016, 06:11:47 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2016, 08:09:05 PM
Is that an all-dates-matching set?

No.
Unfortunately, that phone does not have all matching dates; so, the housing may have been updated.

It is matched with dial and handset, but the consumables (cord and number plate) are replaced.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 30, 2016, 06:51:25 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on July 29, 2016, 01:19:11 PM
C32.104, Issue 1, 9-15-36:

211s are shown with 4H-type dials and E1B-3 handsets. (Odd, since E1E handsets were available by 1935.)

Is it just "shown" with an E1B handset or explicitly listed in that BSP?  Even in the 1950s, some BSPs covering G-mountings still showed E1 handset, despite listing F handsets.
The BSPs don't always reflect actually used equipment, IMHO, old drawings are used at times.

I would say the G was designed with the new handset in mind, but like for the 302, they had to wait for availability. However, it does seem that the early cradles seem to fit the E handset shape a little smother than an F handset.

Quote
No distinction in the hand telephone set assembly codes for sidetone vs. anti-sidetone for 211s.
This late, I doubt there was any interest or concern in making new sidetone instruments.  Sidetone sets were only installed again during the war period when no other equipment was available.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 05, 2016, 03:52:27 PM
While on the topic of 211 telephones...

Does anyone have one with a G3A–3 or G3AR–3 (back plastic) handset that is dated before 1963 ?
Such sets should have a chromium handset cradle switch hook.

BSP C38.323 i2 of May 1959 claims they are used on 211-L,M,N,P and 212-L and M sets.

Have any been found or did they use a G1A instead?

BSP C38.377 Issue 1, 8/1957 (211 J,L) did not mention G-type handsets, while C38.343 also of 8/1957 lists the G1A handset on G6 mountings for the 211-J,L for use with a 685A subset.  212-types didn't use G handsets either in 1957.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 05, 2016, 06:08:22 PM
Edit:  An earlier BSP for Hand Telephone Sets, hanging type has a similar table, but with a note:
         
             3.03  The  foregoing  table  lists  the  codes  of  apparatus  with
                      a  black  finish.  The dash number (--3)  should  be 
          changed  in  accordance  with  the  table  given  in  the  section  en-
          titled  "Station  Cords"  when  other  finishes  are required.   

          BSP Section C32.104, Issue 1, 9-15-36   

This note is not included in  C38.323 issue 2. Had it been included, perhaps they would have mentioned that not only the dash number (color), but also the part number, would have to change (from G1A-3 or G1AR-3 to G3A-xx or G3AR-xx).


Quote from: unbeldi on August 05, 2016, 03:52:27 PM
While on the topic of 211 telephones...

Does anyone have one with a G3A–3 or G3AR–3 (back plastic) handset that is dated before 1963 ?
Such sets should have a chromium handset cradle switch hook.

BSP C38.323 i2 of May 1959 claims they are used on 211-L,M,N,P and 212-L and M sets.

Have any been found or did they use a G1A instead?

I haven't heard of any black G3-type handsets made before the early 60s. Since Table C lists colors available, perhaps the use of "G3A-3" and "G3AR-3" was an unintentional blurring of the G1-types used on black sets and the G3-types used on color sets.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 05, 2016, 06:27:46 PM
Do we know the actual arrival time of the chrome cradles?  The earliest I have is on a III-63 G7-3.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 05, 2016, 08:26:01 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 05, 2016, 06:27:46 PM
Do we know the actual arrival time of the chrome cradles?  The earliest I have is on a III-63 G7-3.


According to the BSP cited (C38.323, Issue 2, May, 1959), the 211J, 211L, and 212L all had chromium plated handset hooks. Since these sets were intended for use with 685- and 686-type subsets, they had G-type handsets. The black handset lead on the J and L sets is connected to B rather than BK.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 05, 2016, 09:37:49 PM
Updates:
Basket Weave cords -- H3C III 41, D3AL IV 41, on 302 dated 10/41.
Clear plungers on black 500DR 3-64
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 11, 2016, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: poplar1 on August 05, 2016, 08:26:01 PM
According to the BSP cited (C38.323, Issue 2, May, 1959), the 211J, 211L, and 212L all had chromium plated handset hooks. Since these sets were intended for use with 685- and 686-type subsets, they had G-type handsets. The black handset lead on the J and L sets is connected to B rather than BK.

I think this is actually much more complex, e.g., the 212 L sets used G7 bodies which had a BK contact.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 11, 2016, 10:44:14 AM
Perhaps I misspoke, but the point I was making is that in the G6 and G7,  the black handset wire is connected to a spare terminal, rather than to BK on the hookswitch, and that 5 conductors are required rather than 4, not counting any switched leads for ringer (Tip Party ID) or for speakerphone, for connection to a network subset.

All of these G mountings can be "modified" for use with a different type subset than originally wired.  But I think the J , K, and L models were factory wired with the isolated black transmitter lead. With a network subset, the Y and BK hookswitch springs, in series with the Y and BK dial pulsing springs, form a path from one side of the line to one of the network inputs, but the black transmitter wire connects to B on the network, using a spare terminal in the G-type mounting, which
I apparently mislabeled is labeled B.

I'll have to confirm this later, as this is from memory, which may or may not be faulty these days.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 11, 2016, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: unbeldi on August 11, 2016, 10:27:19 AM
I think this is actually much more complex, e.g., the 212 L sets used G7 bodies which had a BK contact.

Both the 211J/L [G6 mounting] and the 212L [G7 mounting]  have the black handset lead connected to B.
Although B is shown as part of the "line switch", it is actually just a spare terminal (no springs). The inside wiring cable connects from B in the mounting to B on the network.

In both the G6 and G7, "BK" is one of the d-e hookswitch springs that connects to the Y spring. In both G6 and G7, there is a blue jumper from BK to the "BL" spare terminal. (I had forgotten about this blue jumper and BL terminal.) One of the 5 leads of the inside wiring cable goes from "BL" to RR on the 425-type network. (I had stated that this lead went directly  from BK on the hookswitch to [RR on] the network, but the circuit would be the same without the blue jumper and BL terminal.)

Ref: BSP Section 502-320-400, Issue 2, January 1971
Service 211-Type Hand Telephone Sets

Section 502-320-401, Issue 2, February 1971
Service, 212L Hand Telephone Sets

Both are in the Station Installation and Repair Manual, Illinois Bell, November 1971
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 11, 2016, 11:38:55 AM
[ This was written in response to the previous, uncorrected post, it is hard now to followup explicitly, but not important.]

Yes, that seems right.  They had separate connecting screws for the black lead, which was labeled just B.
The BK terminal is always a switch contact, I believe, for BK-Y.

It is not easy to summarize the use and wiring of G hangup telsets. Judging by my searches of other collector's writings, they appear to be some of the least understood telsets.

They were issued for 40 years or so with varying components, for all service types, with various subsets. They came in four major telephone types, 211, 212, 213, 214, with 13 primary suffices (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, L, M, N, P) on six different switch arrangements (G1, G2, G3, G6, G7, G8), with dials 4Hx, 5Hx, 6A, 6D, 6J.

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on August 11, 2016, 11:46:00 AM
Did they ever have a satin-chrome hook, like some early 554 sets?

I seem to have seen one in a recent eBay listing, but it is not a clear picture.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: rdelius on August 11, 2016, 11:53:25 AM
Don't forger the 2211 set and the dial mount for the 211 that was cast in one peice including the back.The dial was tilted real back                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on August 11, 2016, 04:15:49 PM
Addressing the original point -- chrome hooks + G-type handsets + network subsets -- I believe there are only the following:

Handset Mounting                   Hand Tel. Set                   Uses include:

G6                                          211J, 211L                 Basic Set 211J (manual), 212L (dial)
G6                                          211M
G7                                          212L                          A/A1 leads for 1A2 Key, Tip Party ID, 4-PTY Selective w/686A
G7                                          212 M
G8                                          211N, 211P

G8   (Touch-Tone)                    2212L                        A/A1 leads for 1A2 Key, Tip Party ID, 4-PTY Selective w/686A
G9   (Touch-Tone)                    2211L                        Basic Set                       
G10 (Touch-Tone)                    2211P                        3B or 4A Speakerphone

Ref:
G8, G9, G10 in TCI library:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/doc_details/2759-502-302-101-i3-reference-2211-2212-type-hand-telephone-sets-tl
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: wds on September 14, 2016, 06:03:58 PM
Here's an update to the dates for the D1.  I have one dated I-35 on the inside, with the patent dates on the base.  That extends the date on the chart by one quarter.  Oddly enough, I also have another D1 dated I-35 that has the D1 USA on the back and no patent dates.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on September 15, 2016, 09:00:09 AM
"D1 WESTERN ELECTRIC MADE IN USA PATENT 1508424 1788474"

I think the second patent number in the tables should be 1788747, not?
What does yours say?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: wds on September 15, 2016, 09:57:01 AM
1788747
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on October 02, 2016, 11:32:20 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on May 08, 2016, 01:40:37 PM

Examples of A-, H-, I- and S- markings found on WE parts, especially 302s:

Updated Reply #99 Table:

" A" suffix --                                     S-3-47A - 9-48A
         Indicates an aluminum baseplate, or a ringer that has been adjusted so that it will work properly with an aluminum baseplate.
   
"  H-" prefix -- Hawthorne?               H-1-46 - H-3-46

"  I-"  prefix/suffix -- Indianapolis?   8-49-I -  4-52-I

" S-"  prefix -- St. Paul, MN?             S-12-44 --   S-3-47A

(snip)

500:
Dial: 7D 1-53 I

I don't know if this "S" is related to the "S" found on 302s:
2-72 S

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: wds on October 13, 2016, 06:28:24 PM
I ran across this 684A ringer, dated III 49 on the transformer and the Condensor.  Not sure what those numbers are on the cover.  I can clearly see "584" through the paint, so I'm guessing this started out as a 584 and then re-issued as a 684.  78A ringer?  with 37A & 36A bells.  These dates seem to fall out of line with the dates on page one of this post?  This ringer also has the original box, and is possibly unused as a 684A. 
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on October 13, 2016, 06:52:14 PM
I am certain the marking on the cover is the date of manufacture.  In the 1950s WECo made subset covers from Tenite plastic for these subsets. It looks like that is what you have there.

1 25 58 3 =  25 January 1958.  As usual, we don't know what the last digit (1, 2, or 3) means.
I think this may be the latest Tenite cover I have seen, not sure, but I know I have/had several from the first half of the 1950s.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: WEBellSystemChristian on February 03, 2017, 11:38:55 PM
Here is the date on my June 1949 G1 handset. Is this the earliest G1 known to exist? :o

Also, here is another one of my handsets, the latest G1 that know of, dated January 1966.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: Jim Stettler on February 04, 2017, 01:48:26 AM
Quote from: WEBellSystemChristian on February 03, 2017, 11:38:55 PM
Here is the date on my June 1949 G1 handset. Is this the earliest G1 known to exist? :o

Christian,
Please create a Separate Topic for this handset.
It deserves it.
JMO,
Jim S.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: unbeldi on July 17, 2017, 06:46:11 PM
INDEX to date range tables

Telephone Types

Components:


PS: I copied this index to the current end of posts to make it easier to find.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on February 03, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
Updates:

H3AF handset cord        II 50
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: wds on April 06, 2018, 12:13:14 PM
Reply #48 lists the latest 101 Coil as 1935, but I have one dated II 37 and another one dated Iv 36.  May want to update that post.  Also, the first page lists the 684A as only having a 101A coil - should this be modified to add a line for the 101 Coil?  And last, should the 684A and 684BA have an additional line for Tenite Covers as well as bakelite?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 06, 2018, 12:21:39 PM
I'll add your updates. Probably should also add the 146C induction coil.

I just bought a 531A ext. ringer with gray (--49? color code) cover. 1955 dates.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: RotarDad on April 06, 2018, 03:03:46 PM
Poplar1 - Please show us a pic or two of that gray 531A!  I thought they only came in black.  Why did they make gray if the WE coin collectors of that era (18X, 19X) only came in black?  Thanks !

Also I was reviewing the 500 date page and I have some additional info.  I assume you need pics in support of that input.  Should I post here?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on April 06, 2018, 05:40:53 PM
Quote from: RotarDad on April 06, 2018, 03:03:46 PM
Poplar1 - Please show us a pic or two of that gray 531A!  I thought they only came in black.  Why did they make gray if the WE coin collectors of that era (18X, 19X) only came in black?  Thanks !

Also I was reviewing the 500 date page and I have some additional info.  I assume you need pics in support of that input.  Should I post here?

Well, I may have hit the BIN button too soon: the 531A housing is painted gray, but black underneath. I have found 684BA and 685A subsets with molded gray covers.

Ebay item # 392014016799


Pictures are great but not required for date range updates.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: andre_janew on March 22, 2019, 09:15:37 PM
I recently purchased a WE 500 with a date of 3-55 and it had the 3-point dial mounting bracket.  I thought they went to the 2-point bracket at the beginning of 1955.  When did they stop using the 3-point bracket?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: RotarDad on March 22, 2019, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: andre_janew on March 22, 2019, 09:15:37 PM
I recently purchased a WE 500 with a date of 3-55 and it had the 3-point dial mounting bracket.  I thought they went to the 2-point bracket at the beginning of 1955.  When did they stop using the 3-point bracket?

That is a great question, and I think we have an answer!  I just removed the cover on a 4/55 500, and it has the 2-point mount.  Mine has 4-55 on the base and net, but the ringer and other parts, including the handset, have March dates.  I would say you nailed this Andre!  March-April 1955 was the transition month.  Perhaps Poplar1 can add this to the date range data in this thread.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: andre_janew on July 22, 2019, 05:33:37 PM
I checked and he hasn't done it yet.  No mention of when the bracket changeover occurred.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on June 02, 2021, 03:39:48 PM
Anyone have a list of the different D-type handset mountings (D1, D2, D6, etc.)? I think it is listed somewhere in the forum, but I can't find it.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: MMikeJBenN27 on June 03, 2021, 09:18:15 PM
Can I save this post, so I can prove to people with early 50s 302 phones that they do NOT have a 1937 version?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts - Section 1 of 2
Post by: paul-f on August 31, 2021, 05:55:45 PM
While researching 1702 10-button Princess sets for a question on the TCI Email Group, I discovered sets with base dates of 9-64 and 11-67 (extending the range in the chart).

Also, the later set's dial is a 25P4 dated 10-67.
The speculation is that the 25P-type dials were made after the non-illuminated dials, so it would be interesting to discover the earliest manufacturing date.

(The early sets I checked so far all have replaced/refurbed dials, so don't have good early dates.)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: paul-f on August 31, 2021, 07:30:10 PM
Found the attached photos to close in on the transition from 25H to 25P Princess dials.

5-67 -- 25H4
7-67 -- 25P4

Can anyone close the gap or provide early 25H photos?
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on September 01, 2021, 01:37:50 AM
Thanks for the date range updates. I had not heard of non-illuminated Princess dials other than CS sets. Is the 25H4 non-illuminated?

25P4 as shown has the holes for converting to 12-button. Note that transition from 25A3 to convertible
25W3 on 1500D set occurred by 2-67
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on September 01, 2021, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: paul-f on August 31, 2021, 07:30:10 PM
Found the attached photos to close in on the transition from 25H to 25P Princess dials.

5-67 -- 25H4
7-67 -- 25P4

Can anyone close the gap or provide early 25H photos?

25P4 6-67 posted by Dave F http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=3720.msg49519#msg49519
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: paul-f on September 01, 2021, 09:27:49 AM
Thanks David and David.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 07, 2022, 04:17:08 PM
Dates stamped in ink on inside of receiver and transmitter caps for F-type handset:

Receiver Cap:

5 11 38
6 28 38


Transmitter Cap:

10-18-38

Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 10, 2022, 11:42:29 AM
Extend date range for P-340016 number plate: I 52 - II 54.
This is the number plate with black dot which fits 6-type dials only.
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 11, 2022, 03:09:09 PM
Trying to complete list of colors for the Signature sets, leased, but not sold, by AT&T.

Princess (2703BMG with LED dial):
Ivory (-50), White (-58), Pink (-59), Aqua Blue (-62) and Peach (-258)

2500
Maize (yellow), burgundy, black

2554
Maize
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: compubit on March 11, 2022, 10:30:11 PM
For the 2500: white, burgundy, maize, slate blue (dark grey), black, almond
2554: white, burgundy, maize, black, almond

The signature princess colors look correct.

Jim
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: poplar1 on March 18, 2022, 06:22:14 PM
Extend range for unmarked finger stop: 5-53, 10-53,  12-53, 3-54

Previous:         
6A.......11-51 -- 1970.......with black painted aluminum finger wheel and black case
      plain finger stop 3-52 -- 4-53*
      6 stamped on finger stop*11-54 -- 3-70
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: MaximRecoil on September 11, 2022, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on September 15, 2014, 12:14:21 PMHandset
             G1A                    6-49 10/50 - 11-64  1-66

If I'm reading that right, 1-66 is the newest WE 500 you know of with a G1 handset? I have two NOS black TA-236/FT GA-51859 phones (US Army Signal Corps version of the WE 500), both dated 6-66, and both of which came in their original boxes with US Army markings, and they both have G1 handsets with the normal G1 markings:

Western Electric
MADE IN U.S.A.
G1

And I know of an NOS one dated 7-66 that has a G1 handset too, because the guy I bought my two phones from had pictures of one.

Here are some more details about my two phones:

- The receiver cap on one of them has a date stamp on the inside of 5-66 and also says G3. There's a letter C there too, off by itself. The receiver cap on the other one also has a date stamp of 5-66 and a lone letter C, but instead of G3 it says 6G.

- Both caps on both handsets are thermoplastic (not Bakelite).

- Both baseplates are cadmium-plated.

- Both handset cords are H4CJ, and below that is stamped a "T" and a "II". On the other side of the restraint is stamped a "66".

- Both mounting cords are D3BN, and below that is stamped a "T" and a "II". On the other side of the restraint is stamped a "66".

- Both networks are 425E, dated 6-66

- Both ringers are stamped II-66, but one of them has 5 stamped dashes above the II-66 and the other only has 2.

- Both dials are 9C-3, dated 6-66.

- Both transmitters are T1, dated 6 8 66 on one of them and 5 27 66 on the other.

- Both receivers are U1, dated 6 9-66 on both of them.

- Both shells have threaded inserts and clear plastic plungers.

- Both shells are marked:

SIGNAL CORPS  U.S. ARMY
TELEPHONE SET TA-236/FT
Western Electric

- Both baseplates are marked:

GA-51859
6-66
(no other markings aside from the "<-LOUD-<" under the ringer volume control)
Title: Re: Date ranges for WE Parts
Post by: ka1axy on September 15, 2023, 08:12:43 PM
Quote from: RotarDad on March 22, 2019, 10:29:10 PMThat is a great question, and I think we have an answer!  I just removed the cover on a 4/55 500, and it has the 2-point mount.  Mine has 4-55 on the base and net, but the ringer and other parts, including the handset, have March dates.  I would say you nailed this Andre!  March-April 1955 was the transition month.  Perhaps Poplar1 can add this to the date range data in this thread.

Just acquired a 7-55 (base, housing, ringer, dial and network are also 7-55) type 500 and it's got a 2-point mount.