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Is this a repro ?

Started by Dan/Panther, December 16, 2009, 08:01:50 PM

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Dan/Panther

This looks like thw relief for the push button in the lower left corner is not their, just like the ones they say are repros.
D/P

http://tinyurl.com/yghyjp3

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

bingster

As I understand it, all the originals have that relief, but Ray Kotke leaves it off so his repros can't be confused for originals.  So I think you're right.  It's still neat, but the missing handset caps are a shame.  Might be able to get a set from Kotke, though.
= DARRIN =



Dan/Panther

I bet he gets a hundred buck a set at least...
D/P
The complete set was $495.00 the last time I checked.

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

McHeath

Interesting rig.  I know very little about the clear 302s but I'm sure someone here can give us the scoop.  The "beer hall girl" in the number card spot is curious, wonder what that was about?  Also I see "Mr. Helpful" is still alive and kicking.

benhutcherson

Lots of close ups added of every corner but the tell-tale front left hand corner.

From what I can see, the round cut-out is not there, so it does appear to be a repro.


Phonesrfun

However.....

The clear plastic handset says Federal, rather than Western.  I don't know about Federal 302 shells, but I have a Federal F1 bakelite handset that is a dead ringer for a Western.  Is it possible that Federal made a clear plastic shell for some promotional purpose?

There is some yellowing going on with the clear plastic, but not much.

Whichever way it is, it is a nice piece, although some assembly required, and the seller does not take very good pictures.

-Bill
-Bill G

Jim Stettler

The auction is over $1650+. I don't beleive it is repro. Some originals had the cut-out, some did not.
The "original" Production 1939 model did not.
This phone looks home assembled to me. The 302 housing is real. it is early.

The Federal handset helps confirm my suspicion that federal used WE F handsets, but they were branded "Federal".

The owner of this phone was able to get a 302 housing and a F type handset. This makes me think that the federal molds were at the WE moulding plant.  As a Bell employee  he could get fired for theft if he had an obvious "illeagal" phone. On a 302 the only part that is branded is the handset.

I suspect the owner got a clear 302 housing and then was able to get a handset handle  made.

15 years ago a compleate clear 302's sold for about $3,000. I had an opportunity to buy one without the handset for $800. I declined.

I expected this phone to sell for more than $1,000. and more likely 1,200-1,500 .  It closed at just above $1650.00

I think the buyer got a good deal, But it went more for than I would afford. My snipe was around $500, which is about $600 more than I have in my phone fund.


Jim S.


You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Dan/Panther

So buy kostke repro shell, find a federal handset, gut an 302, and make $1600.00.
I think it's a repro. The seller even dates it as around 70's to 80's.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Jim Stettler

I think it is a " real" housing. Ray didn't start making them until at least the late 90's. The husband died in 1983. Ray  is the only one that has made them and he uses  solid clear plungers and a clear grip.
I have handled 6-8 clear 302's over the years . I have studied photo's of a dozen others.
Ray modeled his  from a clear colored set. He left out the cut-out because clear colored sets had them, ( this was to mark them as repro) He made clear plungers because clear colored sets had clear plungers. He created a world's Fair dial center, because, the old story was that clear 302's were only made for the 1939 worlds fair.

This housing is a clear black housing. The world's fair sets were clear black housings as are most of the Retirement sets. Retirement sets have lots of matching dates on the components. Most retirement sets are from the 1940's.

Clear colored sets have hollow handsets (w/ removable logo), hollow clear plungers, and a white base dial. (Just like a color set) the also have a clear grip.
Clear black sets have a solid or semi-solid handset, black solid plungers and a black base dial. Most grips are unpainted metal or painted black. Some are probably clear plastic.

If you are buying a clear 302 to complete a display of colored sets then you really need a clear colored set. If you are just buying because you want a clear set, then any acceptable example will do.

A compleate Ray K. Clear 302 will be built like a clear colored set, except no cut-out, solid clear plungers and a custom world's fair dial center.


If I was the seller and I bought a clear housing because I already had a handset, I would of also bought caps. If I decided I didn't need the caps, I would of  installed black caps on the handset.

BTW I have a Ray K. housing, I store a clear AE40 handset (w/black caps )on it. This Is the first clear Federal handset I have seen or heard of.


The above comments are just my opinion.  I spend a lot of money on clear telephones, so I put a bit of thought and study  into each buying opportunity.
These observations are from about 15 years of studing clear telephones.
JMO
Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Dennis Markham

Great information, Jim.  Thanks for posting it.  I had read before the difference between clear black sets and clear colored sets.  At first it sounds kind of strange but after digesting the differences it's clear.  (Pun intended).


Jim Stettler

Hi Dennis,
To be fair, the last time you read it, it was probably from one of my posts (on the list servers)or from someone referring to them.  So please take it w/ a grain of salt and don't consider my statements as collaborating evidence. Just consider them as my convictions as a student of clear telephones.

Over the years I have posted this opinion a half dozen times. It does fit the evidence and I believe it to be accurate.

Over the years I have seen 2  oddball clear 302's.
1 was a 2 line transparent pink tint 302 w/ a solid clear hand set  ( about 5K on eBay) it closed within a week of a clear colored set selling for 3K+ .
The other oddball was  a small plunger clear 302 housing (about $350).

I corresponded w/ the current owner of the rose tint set.  at the time I felt it was probably a special retirement set for a high ranking bell employee and I felt the solid clear handset was a replacement.
I still feel that is a viable scenario.
However, since then I have realized that plastic salesmen would leave interesting samples at the telco's, so It could of just been a sample plastic set, and the the solid handset could of been the closest match.
I lean towards the retirement set, but it is really just a guess.

As far as the small plunger 302, I have been told that small plunger sets were only made in metal, and that the molds wouldn't work for plastic.

The small plunger set appears to be Lucite vs "Transparent Aluminum" so who really knows the history of these phones. It is all a best guess until some documentation is found.

I collect based on my "best guesses". My collection is funded by sales/trades from my collection so it all works for me.
Had I won this set I would have "paid plastic"  and posted some good deals in the classifieds (under for sale).
Jim S.
BTW the Pun was noted and I chuckled.
(One who appreciates a pun is just as bad as the punster.)
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

AET

So, did you see what it went for?
- Tom

Jim Stettler

Tom,
It went for $1,650+. Which is crazy money. and way out of my budget. This is the kind of price range that I only  trade or trade +cash.

Had I won this phone I would of sold some real nice stuff cheap to fund it.
I can justify paying high $ if I can fund it with the collection. If the collection can't fund it, then I really don't need it.
Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

AET

I know, I saw what it went for, I meant it more as a statement LOL.  I expected like 500 bucks.  It's just wow to me I guess.
- Tom

Dan/Panther

Jim;
Thanks for clarifying that about clear 302's. Passing on what one hears, and getting the right 411 is always better.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson