I am new to this and I love the restoration process. I feel like I am having success; however, my finished product has thousand of light scratches from the sanding that are only visible if the phone is held up close in direct light. I am using Novus #2 as a finishing polish. My questions are these:
Are these sanding marks removable? In other words, can the plastic be smooth?
If so, should I continue to painstakingly polish with the Novus #2, or is my fault in the step-by-step sanding process earlier?
Are these sanding marks typical and just not apparent in the photos of the awesome work you guys do?
I am using 3M Micron polishing papers (6 steps from 30 microns to 1 micron "grit").
Any responses would go along way in alleviating my frustration.
I have included a photo of a side of a recent project to demonstrate what I'm talking about.
That is one of the most frustrating parts of restoring phones. I usually just give up. I did recently find a product which helps a bit, "Meguiar's Scratch X2.0". I was looking for something else at Target when I noticed this on the shelf, so I bought a bottle. It does a great job on various types of plastic, though it is intended for painted surfaces.
Larry
You need to go to 1200 or 2000 before jumping into Novus 2. And you need to get the polisher to warm up the surface of the plastic till it flows a bit to get rid of all blemishes. You should do your sanding with water.
Welcome to the Forum, Hudvalley. The product that has worked best for me is called Micro Mesh. You can see it here:
http://tinyurl.com/ce8huc6
I buy the kit locally at the Woodcraft store simply because there is one located near me. Search the Forum (from the home page) for "micro mesh" and you will find many posts discussing sanding tips. Chensley@aol.com has had much success with this product.
Personally, I begin with 800 grit wet sandpaper and then progress to 1,000, 1,500 and 2,000 before switching to the micro mesh cloth sheets that move progressively up to 12,000 grit. If there are deep scratches, it is sometimes necessary to go lower than 800 grit.
My experience has been that soft plastic (Tenite) is more difficult to remove all the sanding marks than the later ABS (hard) plastic. It can be done with patience and a lot of work.
Sand in straight lines, not circular. With each change in the grit, change directions. Once the plastic has dried, look under magnification. If you can still see the previous sanding marks, then more sanding is needed on the second step. Just keep going until you finish the 12,000. You will have a mirror-like finish. It takes some experience. Lastly I polish with Novus2.
Jorge's comment about the polisher/buffer warming the plastic is a good one.
Mileage may vary.
Check out the posts as I suggested and you should find more tips.
~Dennis
The price of that kit blows me away! Nine 3" x 4" pieces of sand paper and a foam block for $23!
Terry
It is high Terry, but the sheets are cloth. They can be used over and over again. They've gone up since I bought my last set. I think I paid about $21 for them. I wore out one set and have just about worn out a second. But they do last a long time.
Quote from: HudValley on December 18, 2012, 07:05:20 PM
I am new to this and I love the restoration process. I feel like I am having success; however, my finished product has thousand of light scratches from the sanding that are only visible if the phone is held up close in direct light. I am using Novus #2 as a finishing polish. My questions are these:
Are these sanding marks removable? In other words, can the plastic be smooth?
If so, should I continue to painstakingly polish with the Novus #2, or is my fault in the step-by-step sanding process earlier?
Are these sanding marks typical and just not apparent in the photos of the awesome work you guys do?
I am using 3M Micron polishing papers (6 steps from 30 microns to 1 micron "grit").
Any responses would go along way in alleviating my frustration.
I have included a photo of a side of a recent project to demonstrate what I'm talking about.
Wish I knew who I was addressing here, but there was no signature :-(
First, you didn't say whether you were trying to finish bakelite or plastic; it makes a big difference. Generally, it was covered pretty well in the previous answers, but I didn't see anything mentioned about WET SANDING. This is pretty important.
Anyway, what you did is just not go far enough in the sanding process; you should finish up the sanding (before the Novus), by working up to wet-sanding with 2000 grit. You need to figure out a way to cross-match your "micron" paper grit with the universally utilized grit-sizes.
On bakelite, you can usually get by without using sandpaper at all if you have a buffing wheel system. In fact, you can pretty easily ruin a nice bakelite set with too much sanding. Hard plastic (ABS) is the easiest, and can quite often be finished off without conventional sanding as well if you know what you're doing and practice, since "buffing" is really the lazy-man's way to sand your phones! All you do is change the buffing compounds.
You're right Ray, I didn't mention plastic vs Bakelite. I did mention "wet sandpaper" but didn't say to use it with water. There are quite a few posts on the Forum about the technique I think. I was talking about plastic, not Bakelite.
Thank you all for your replies. So many things to consider, but I love the challenge. I will take your advice under consideration. I know there are threads about polishing, buffing, and determining hard and soft plastic types, so I will reread those.
I still have three questions (addressing any of the three will be helpful):
1) What are the advantages of wet sanding plastic, other than keeping dust down?
2) Is a perfectly completed phone completely scratch free, even of minor surface scratches?
3) Jorge, you wrote: "warm up the surface of the plastic till it flows a bit to get rid of all blemishes." What do you mean by "flows a bit"?
Thanks again. You guys are great. I can't wait to share my results with you all.
Rob
Novus 2 on the polisher head and then applied against the plastic surface remains wet until friction causes the Novus to dry (3-5 minutes). The orbital polisher (my tool of preference is the Ryobi RB60) action causes the Novus paste on the pad to warm up the plastic until the point that the plastic layer immediately below the pad flows a bit to fill the minute scratches left by sanding paper and other tools.
The rise in temperature is not too high: you can touch the pad or the phone with the back of your hand and notice the heat coming off the surface, but if I was going to guess, I would say the temperature goes up by 10-20 degrees. I have done a few soft plastic phones and those are the hardest to sand. Usually, the micro-mesh tools mentioned by Dennis leave a very nice finish, but in addition to that, I always finish it off with Novus 2 and then a coat of Turtle Wax F-21 Sun Protectant.
I always do wet sanding with very warm water. Sandpaper lasts longer.
There are some areas of WE500 phones that are difficult to leave scratch free because of various surfaces meeting at 90 degrees. When to stop is a matter of deciding when good enough is enough. Sometimes if you push your luck too much, you may get in a corner where it is difficult to fix a scratch. Or you create a scratch you can't fix. With practice you gain confidence and you'll know when to stop.
Perhaps this post should start a new thread, titled something Finishing Tools Needed. Moderator?
I have a 6-inch orbital buffer, and it is great for large flat (or nearly flat) surfaces. But I would like to find a small buffer - maybe 3-inch or even 2-inch, as it would be better in small areas that are hard to access with a big buffer pad. Think the inside surface of a handset handle, up against the cups, for example. Or the hangup area between the ears of a 302.
Beyond that, it would be nice to be able to turn the "orbital" part off and make it a straight circular buffer. When buffing a flat area near an inside corner (think either of the above examples), I find that the pad on an orbital buffer slams into the adjoining surface with every revolution.
Any ideas?
I also have a mental picture of a cylindrical sponge sanding pad (replacable paper if possible), with a shaft on one end to chuck in a drill or drill press. Kind of like a lint roller, where the sandpaper instead of lint adheres to the sticky surface. Probably need a softer surface, though. Anyway, with a slow RPM, this could make sanding some curved surfaces easier.
Again, any ideas?
Bill
Quote from: Bill on December 20, 2012, 12:16:36 PM
Perhaps this should be a new thread, titled something Finishing Tools Needed. Moderator?
Any ideas?
Bill
Bill;
I have a 3/4 HP buffing wheel set-up with the long shafts on both ends. On one end, I have a 6" loose-cotton wheel, and on the other end, a spiral-sewn (kind of hard) 6" wheel for polishing brass. Oh, and it's 3,450 RPM. It came with 8" wheels on it, but I like using a 6" that is 1" wide for phone buffing. A 6" with long-shafts on your motor works fine for buffing handsets. All you have to remember is to use buffing compound often, and KEEP MOVING! You NEVER want to stop in one place while buffing a plastic phone, or it will melt/burn instantly. With a powerful enough buffing system, and the right buffing compound, you don't even have to do ANY sanding; just buffing. You can actually buff out just about any scratch, scuff or most discoloration in phone plastics.
If you prefer something smaller, you might try another buffing/polishing tool that I use for polishing my castings: it is a flexible-shaft (4 ft) that has a collet on the end. I simply mount a mandrel with a 3" loose-cotton wheel attached to it. For power, I run it from my drill press. I utilize this tool for my castings because they have to be polished at a MUCH slower RPM; around 400-600. As mentioned in wet-sanding, I start at 400-grit, working up to 2000, then finish off with 3M Buffing compound on the 3" wheel. This set-up imparts the "water-clear" castings with their glossy transparency. Incidentally, this exact set-up works great on just about all other buffing/polishing of phones as well. It's messy (that 3M stuff goes everywhere!), but works wonders. You do need a respirator while doing it however.
Posted some photos of a good example of "buffing-only" instead of sanding. Trying to put together a nice article for Singing Wires on buffing.
Ray -
All I can say is "Wowsers!", which translates loosely to "Holy cow!" I'm unlikely to get a long-shaft buffer - lack of space to put it. But a 4-foot flex shaft is now on my list of gotta-have stuff since I have drill press.
Bill
I neglected to post a photo of the finished product! Here is the phone in all of it's splendor ;-)
Beautiful, Ray! Thanks for posting this information and photos.
Ray:
I thought your clear phones were not supposed to yellow with age? Something has happened to the one in your avatar. I think it could be related to the Mayan Calendar but don't want to mention it in case people here on the forum begin to panic.
Terry
Oh Terry, you don't know how close you are to the truth! Bad time with a naughty batch of resin yellowing on some of the 200-series GPO based projects in the UK!
On this thread, there are some very good buffing systems (for phones!) at www.eastwood.com. The photo below shows my "Dream System"; a dual-speed, 1-HP long-shaft buffing motor. 1,750RPM for plastics, and 3,450RPM for bakelite! If you are even thinking of investing in a buffing set-up, check out Eastwood; there are many other set-ups available on their website.
Quote from: TelePlay on December 21, 2012, 07:47:36 PM
That is one outstanding restoration, Ray. It looks like NOS, but better.
Thank you John, and Happy Christmas!
Quote from: Dennis Markham on December 21, 2012, 10:13:51 PM
Beautiful, Ray! Thanks for posting this information and photos.
Thanks Dennis; most appreciated :D
I keep dreaming of getting a buffer so I took a look at Eastwood per Ray's suggestion.
The Two Speed 1HP unit he mentions is $159. This is just the buffer motor, I don't think it comes with any wheels or compound. The picture that Ray posted is the buffer motor with a stand and a kit of wheels, compound and protective equipment. That kit is $339. Or the same kit but without the stand is $289.
I also see that the Eastwood site says all orders over $50 have free shipping which would be a fair bit of cash for an item like this.
They also have single speed motors and 1/2HP motors which are likely all that is really needed for plastic buffing. The single speed motors always seem to be 3450 RPM rather then the preferable for plastic 1725 RPM. A 1/2 HP kit with 6" buff wheels is avalable for $109 including a couple of wheels and some compound.
This is usually where I get overwhelmed and do nothing further about it. I think that Ray suggested 6" wheels for phone parts.
If I stumbled upon a 1/2 HP kit with a 1725 RPM motor and with 6" wheels for a good price along with free shipping I would probably click "Buy it Now" but I never see just what I want. This dual speed motor solves the speed problem but says it is for 10" wheels although maybe it is as simple as buying 6" wheels to go with it.
Terry
Getting into the details, the speed of the buffing wheel on the item being buffed is interesting. A 10 inch wheel at 1,725 is about the same as a 6 inch wheel at 3,450. I can see why a 6 inch wheel at 1,725 3,450 is preferable in that it is slower and would create heat less quickly.
I wonder if it's too late to write a letter to Santa?
RPM 1,725 3,450
6" 2,709 fpm 5,419 fpm
8" 3,665 fpm 7,225 fpm
10" 4,515 fpm 9,032 fpm
So having different diameter buffing wheels would simulate different speeds on the buffer motor. A 3450 RPM 1/2 HP buffer with 6" wheels may be reasonable for plastic. Does that sound correct Ray or is it still on the edge for plastic? I know that you use a 3450 buffer but have lots of experience with it so you are able to carefully buff plastic without melting it! What size wheels do you usually use?
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on December 22, 2012, 10:32:29 PM
So maybe having different diameter buffing wheels would simulate different speeds on the buffer motor. A 3450 RPM 1/2 HP buffer wit h6" wheels may be reasonable for plastic. Does that sound reasonable Ray or is it still on the edge for plastic? I know that you use a 3450 buffer but have lots of experience with it so you are able to carefully buff plastic ithout melting it! Wha tsoze wheels do you usually use?
Terry
You remember correctly Terry. Yes, I use a 3450rpm buffing motor only, basically because I'm cheap and got it for replacing the boards on an elderly gentleman's deck! I use this with 6" wheels.
You can alter the speed somewhat by using smaller wheels, but the size of the wheels is usually determined by the HP of the buffer. A 1/2HP buffer usually is equipped with nothing larger than 6", and a 1HP buffer is usually equipped with 8" wheels. I just like the 6" wheel for getting into various areas of a phone. It still leaves some places that you have to do by hand though, like around the cradle, etc.
On buffing wheels, if you have a little more powerful buffing motor, (3/4HP or more), you can "stack" your buffing wheels (put 2 or 3 of them together as long as they are EXACTLY the same) so you end up with a buffing surface about 3" wide. Works great when you are buffing a LOT of phones; especially bakelite.
I will tell you though that when you get smaller than 6" on your buffing motor, your shaft ends up getting in the way too much, and that is when you want to have the flexible shaft on your drillpress for using the smaller (3") buffing wheels for tight places.
So bottom line for plastic is, even with 6" wheels you ideally want a 1725 RPM motor rather than 3450. Or the dual speed motor.
Or the 1100 RPM that Caswel Plating has but it is $259. Caswell used to have a 1725 RPM and when they got the 1100 RPM models in they cleared out the 1725 RPM's for $99. When I saw the sale I was about a day too late. They were still showing as available but when I tried to order one they got back to me saying the last one was gone.
Terry
Quote from: AE_Collector on December 22, 2012, 09:31:17 PM
I also see that the Eastwood site says all orders over $50 have free shipping which would be a fair bit of cash for an item like this.
If you read the fine print, the free shipping does not apply to kits or heavy weight items so the $109 buffer kit will cost an additional $33 or so in ground shipping. If you went with just the motor, it's $109 with free shipping but then you would have to buy the wheels and compounds and rake. So, the kit supplies are $33 if you think of it as free shipping. They say the kit and motor list at $182 so it's still a deal. Sneaky, aren't they?
I have a question about polishing with Dremel-type tools.
I have never used one, but assumed that they would be good for polishing in the tight spots.
Are they good for this purpose? Anyone have any experience trying to use them for polishing where a buffing wheel won't reach?
Any thoughts, experience, suggestions?
Thanks,
Nick
I've burned plastic with a Dremmel tool. I was using an accessory that was pretty hard. The high RPM burned the plastic. Never tried that again.
Quote from: Dennis Markham on December 24, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've burned plastic with a Dremmel tool. I was using an accessory that was pretty hard. The high RPM burned the plastic. Never tried that again.
Oh, yeah. Nothing related to Dremel is good for polishing plastic. Drilling and cutting, yes. Polishing or sanding, no. Way to fast and too small of a surface area. I don't let my Dremel anywhere near anything plastic or bakelite.
But, the Dremel wire brush does work well for polishing small unpainted metal parts.
oooohhh, Dremel and plastics, a big NO!
Been there and done that. No speed on the variable spedd Dremel is slow enough. Don't go there.
I have a home made polisher. I got the mandrel from Ace Hardware for $30 and the belt from an auto store for $4. The motor is a 1 hp 1800 RPM very old Sears table saw motor. The pulley reduction (motor pulley is smaller than mandrel pulley) brings the speed down to about 1400 RPM.
I use the brass brush side to clean up steel like footpad plates and the buffer side for plastic and brass (different wheels). I have been using this for several years waiting for the motor to burn out.
Dennis Hallworth
I have a Black & decker dremel-type tool, and it has a speed control on it so you can go for low & slow RPMs for polishing and hard & fast RPMs for cutting & grinding... :)
I think the B&D tool is called the "Wizard"... ???
Quote from: dencins on December 24, 2012, 09:52:11 PM
I have a home made polisher.
Dennis Hallworth
Dennis;
this is exactly what I will build when my 3450rpm buffer bites the dust. It would be easy as pie to adjust the different pulleys to get various RPMs, and finding a 1HP electric motor shouldn't take much since I have a couple in my garage right now that I scrounged somewhere! Put a 3-tier pulley on each end (like most drill-presses are equipped with), and it would work well in varying the speeds. Get a nice long shaft of the correct size, and you're in business! You can mount the pillow-blocks right on a modified grinder stand and go from there.
Ray
One thing I would do different the next time is to make this vertical rather than horizontal. First it would take less space and second I could use the weight of the motor to maintain the belt tension. Now I force the motor back away from the mandrel when the belt starts to slip. I figure I could fasten a rod to the base of the motor and then hinge it to whatever I use as a stand.
Dennis Hallworth
Exactly what I have been using for the past ten years or more....It is a gas pump motor and it is mounted on hinges - the weight of the motor keeps the belt tight, and should clothing or anything become engaged in the belt, it can be quickly pulled forward to release the belt tension. I chose the motor because it runs 1250 RPM, brought down even further to close to 1000 RPM by the pulley ratio.
Dave
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/buffing.html
Quote from: dencins on December 24, 2012, 09:52:11 PM
... I have been using this for several years waiting for the motor to burn out.
Dennis Hallworth
That old motor looks like it could take a direct nuclear blast and keep on spinning.
Quote from: dencins on December 25, 2012, 12:04:05 AM
Ray
One thing I would do different the next time is to make this vertical rather than horizontal. First it would take less space and second I could use the weight of the motor to maintain the belt tension. Now I force the motor back away from the mandrel when the belt starts to slip. I figure I could fasten a rod to the base of the motor and then hinge it to whatever I use as a stand.
Dennis Hallworth
Yep; vertical is the way to go for sure. In fact, if you are handy with a welder, it's easy to use a big door hinge on one side of the motor-mount, and then you can use a piece of threaded rod to adjust tension. All of this can be mounted right on the stand.
Mine is about the same method, go from 120 grit to 400 to 800 and 1000-1500(for polishing). You can use dermal tool to speed up process.
Ben
Quote from: WesternElectricBen on January 05, 2013, 10:33:02 AM
Mine is about the same method, go from 120 grit to 400 to 800 and 1000-1500(for polishing). You can use dermal tool to speed up process.
Ben
I really wouldn't recommend using a Dremel. They are WAY too fast for anything other than drilling holes and grinding metal in my opinion, and they just cover way too small an area at a time causing streaking.
The once or twice that I ever let a Dremel near my phones, I instantly created a parts phone. Not good for plastics in my book.
So... w/o using a Dremel-type tool, how do you get into the small areas, (headset cradle, etc.) using a 6" bonnet on the RB60?
Quote from: EbayJay on March 04, 2013, 11:09:50 AM
So... w/o using a Dremel-type tool, how do you get into the small areas, (headset cradle, etc.) using a 6" bonnet on the RB60?
Use a flexible shaft with a small buff and SLOW speed or you can do a pretty good job by hand actually. I bought a flexible shaft with a drill chuck on the end at Harbor Freight for something like $10 US. I'm sure you can find an inexpensive one on eBay. You can chuck it in your power drill, or if you have one (better), mount it to your drill press. I use it with 3M buffing compound. This buffing compound is what professional automotive painters use for "wheeling" out auto paint. Novus could also be used. It's messy though! Gets ALL over if you're not careful.
Yes, I found that out the hard way. My buffer threw Novus all over the room. Hahaha. Thanks for the tip.
I have been practicing sanding on a soft plastic 500 case. Started with 800 and ended at 12000 "micromesh". Sanded in opposite directions with each change in grit. Sanding until previous sanding marks are no longer visible. I've spent many hours on this and can't seem to perfect the process. After polishing there are still these very fine swirly sanding marks that still appear under bright reflective light. Is there actually a buffing tool that will buff out these very fine marks? I hear about the Ryobi, as well as, a stationary unit. Are they messy? I'm willing to invest if I can get confirmation that it does indeed remove fine sanding marks. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
-Frank
Quote from: TelePlay on December 24, 2012, 03:48:52 PM
Quote from: Dennis Markham on December 24, 2012, 02:44:41 PM
I've burned plastic with a Dremmel tool. I was using an accessory that was pretty hard. The high RPM burned the plastic. Never tried that again.
Oh, yeah. Nothing related to Dremel is good for polishing plastic. Drilling and cutting, yes. Polishing or sanding, no. Way to fast and too small of a surface area. I don't let my Dremel anywhere near anything plastic or bakelite.
But, the Dremel wire brush does work well for polishing small unpainted metal parts.
Every tool is good at certain things. While I would never use a dremel to polish an entire phone, they do have their uses - in particular when equipped with a flexible shaft,
The secret to using a dremel or similar tool is to finesse it, and to not force or manhandle it. Don't expect it to do large areas. It isn't designed for it. But for small areas, cutting, etc. they can be invaluable.
Note, most of the time I refer to a dremel (small c), I am referring to a chinese dremel knock-off I use on occasion, but I also have a true Dremel, as well. I find the quality of the knock-off just as good as the Dremel.
Cracks in shells can be v'ed out so epoxy can be used to repair them using a diamond tipped burr chucked into the dremel. This gives the glue more "tooth" to hold. The powder left after v'ing them out can be mixed with the epoxy to colour it. I use dental spatulas to force the glue into the cracks, much the same way a dentist forces a filling into a hole in a tooth. The dremel can then be used to grind the glue almost level with the surface, and then a small dremel buffing wheel can be used to polish out the repair using buffing compound.
The reason I prefer to use a flexible shaft with them, is that a hand held dremel will attempt to fight you due to the gyroscopic action of the motor. Using a flexible shaft, this isn't an issue, giving more control....
Example: A photo of an AE34 case I worked on this evening which had had a severe crack extending from the upper right hand of the photo, down through the vent close to the left hand side. The crack was solidified, using crazy glue, then v'ed out and filled as described above, then finished with the dremel. I should have wiped it before taking the photo as some fluff shows in the photo above the vent...
I dare you to tell me where the crack was. I can see one short scratch where part of the crack was, but final buffing should make that impossible to see. You can flip it over and see where the crack was from the inside.
Next step, buffing with my big buffer.
Second photo showing location of original crack, made more visible by lightening up the same photo and running a red line along side the repair to make it more visible. Photos were taken before the final complete buffing. The Dremel portion of this repair took about 2 hours total, and the filling 8 hours to let the epoxy cure.
It takes practice to get results as good as these - practice on a junk piece first.
I have toyed with the idea of using dental epoxy for this (the type which sets up with a UV lamp). It would be interesting to see if it makes it easier to get a smooth finish. It would definitely save on setting up time.
Dave