Introduction & Trouble with WE 500 Ringing

[dlvh]

Thank you all very much for your helping me out! The instruction and pictures were very good and helpful, and I will hopefully get to swapping them around tomorrow. There are a couple of POTS providers in my area, and I am trying to decide which one to go with, but getting AT&T to even offer to sell me their POTS service, was like pulling teeth, and indeed from what I experienced, all they want to sell is their U-Verse service. I spent well-over 2 hours on the phone with them before I got someone who knew what in the heck they were doing.

Seeings the wires are all hooked up properly, I am going to presume that the Ringer Assembly is bad, and start looking for another one, but will certainly try the swap first. If worse comes to worse and I need another one, does anyone suggest a good seller for one of these?

Thanks again all!

dlvh

[dlvh]

Another question I have is, if this phone does need a new Ringer, do I Strictly look for a "C4A" or will other models work, and which ones would they be?

[Jim Stettler]

Another question I have is, if this phone does need a new Ringer, do I Strictly look for a "C4A" or will other models work, and which ones would they be?

The C4A is a direct replacement. Others will work, but a C4A can be found for cheap or free and it is the proper ringer.
Jim S.

[TelePlay]

Another question I have is, if this phone does need a new Ringer, do I Strictly look for a "C4A" or will other models work, and which ones would they be?

There are newer ringers (ITT) that may not say C4A on them that would fit.

If you need a replacement ringer, it must have a ringer frame, metal part, like the one removed (two mounting screws, one peg in the center as the 3rd mounting point, and one coil on the left).

If you don't care about date, they are easily found on eBay. I got a phone with an ITT ringer that did not work. On of the two windings in the coil was broken. I replaced that plastic frame ITT with a very nice almost the same age metal frame C4A found on eBay for cheap.

Had a choice of several at that point in time.

Here are two eBay links, (current now but dead in a few months, of course) for example.

     http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-C4A-bell-ringers-/302401404704

     http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-phone-ringer-c4a-/322646891306

[Alex G. Bell]

There are newer ringers (ITT) that may not say C4A on them that would fit.

If you need a replacement ringer, it must have a ringer frame, metal part, like the one removed (two mounting screws, one peg in the center as the 3rd mounting point, and one coil on the left).

If you don't care about date, they are easily found on eBay. I got a phone with an ITT ringer that did not work. On of the two windings in the coil was broken. I replaced that plastic frame ITT with a very nice almost the same age metal frame C4A found on eBay for cheap.

C4A is strictly a WECo/NECo code.  IIRC, ITT used "130" to designate their version of the C4A.  Late production 130s have a plastic frame which may break if the phone is dropped.  Metal ones were made for many years so most 130s will have metal frames. 

A yet later compact ringer used a ball bearing instead of clapper on an armature rod.  This type is mounted by the two end screws and has no back post or large coil.  Avoid them.

Ringer winding continuity can be easily checked on a go/no-go basis without any instruments.  I will explain how if requested. 

The coil consists of two separate windings, one connected between BK and SLate (grey) and the other between RD and RD-SL.  If one winding is open and another ringer is available, even a damaged or incomplete one, the coils can be swapped between the two ringers to make one good one from two defective/incomplete ones.

Best to first confirm that one of the ringer windings is actually open before spending time trying to find a replacement.

[dlvh]

Thanks for the detailed info about the individual ringers fellows! Very informative.

Alex G. Bell, you have a PM

[Alex G. Bell]

Thanks for the detailed info about the individual ringers fellows! Very informative.

Alex G. Bell, you have a PM

I'm taking the liberty of quoting your private message and replying publicly since others may benefit and I see no need for privacy on this.

C4A Bell Ringer or just Coil?
« Sent to: Alex G. Bell on: Today at 10:40:45 AM »

Hello Mr. Bell,

Thanks for replying to me out about the C4A Ringer & Coil.  Could you explain, to a layman (me), just how I would test to see if it's just the coil that might be bad, versus the Whole Ringer itself? Or did you partly explain it to me in that post about my Ringer problems?

Thanks so much!

David

You're welcome.

I did not explain it.  Basically, it's this:  The ringer coils normally have DC continuity, meaning that DC current will pass through them if they are "good" AKA "continuous" AKA not "open circuit".  A telephone line has DC voltage on it.  Therefore if a ringer winding is connected across the line, DC current will flow through the winding. 

Telephone circuits use the flow of DC current to recognize whether the handset is in the cradle (idle) or out of the cradle (in use).  Ringing is performed by applying AC to the line.  There is a capacitor connected internally between the A & K terminals of the speech network which is normally connected in series between the two segments (windings) of the ringer coil to block DC since that would interfere with recognizing whether the phone is idle or in use.  A capacitor blocks DC but allows AC to flow through to operate the ringer.

When a telephone line is in use, any abrupt change of significant magnitude in the DC current flow on the line will produce an audible click in the handset if the line is silent, such as a single digit having been dialed to remove dial tone.  Therefore, connecting either ringer coil winding across the L1 and L2 (line) terminals of the network while the handset is off hook, connected to a working line and dial tone is absent, will produce a click.

First try momentarily connecting the BK & SL ringer leads across L1 & L2 by just touching the spade tips on the ends of these leads to the L1 & L2 terminals.  Next repeat this with the RD & SL-RD leads.  Each time a connection is made and broken you will hear a click in the receiver if the winding is good (continuous). 

I just performed this test myself to be 100% certain it would produce plainly audible clicks as I expected.   It did.

Of course this does not preclude a mechanical problem with the ringer or perhaps a problem with the magnet.  The attached photo identifies the magnet, armature and where to squeeze the armature to operate it.  It should move freely and return.  If the magnet is missing or very weak the ringer will not work even if it is electrically good.

If the ringer windings are okay and connected properly it's possible the capacitor between A & K is open.  That can be tested too without instruments if there is a second phone connected to the line.  I'll explain how to do that if the ringer coil passes testing.

[dlvh]

Ok...I did swap the Ringers and of course, the swap now worked on the Beige phone, but it now doesn't work on the Red phone, which is what I expected, as did probably all of you.

I will be ordering a new Coil very soon, and if that don't work, it's on to a new Ringer.

Thanks again you all!

dlvh

[TelePlay]

I will be ordering a new Coil very soon, and if that don't work, it's on to a new Ringer.

I seem to remember it was cheaper overall to buy a new used ringer than a coil alone considering the small difference in price, the unknown quality of the coil and the work to install it (replace) the existing ringer coil.