Ashtray phone won't dial out or ring.

[Phonesrfun]

The dial on the ashtray phone is wired like an AE, where the receiver is shorted out during dialing to prevent clicks in the ear.  The western #4 and #5 dials are made to switch the reciever off during dialing.  The Western #4 and #5 won't work unless you also rewire the ashtray phone to be like a Western Electric phone.

The dial pulse springs are the ones that open and close with the pulse cam, and the contacts for those connections are right at the base of those springs.  You should see a set of two contacts and another set of four contacts on that particular dial you have.  the set of two are the pulse contacts.  Use an ohm meter to see if they are closed when the dial is at rest, and that they open and close while dialing.  Do this with nothing connected to those contacts otherwise the inductor coil resistance will interfere with the measurement.  Oh yes, and do this with the phone disconnected too.

[Greg G.]

Not sure which two you're referring to, there are actually 7 on this dial.  Is it these two?  Unplugged the phone and removed the spades from these two.  I set the Ohm meter at 20k, it read 0.00 at rest, and had several different readings as I dialed. 

There is a loud click in the receiver when I try to dial when it's plugged in and hooked up.

[LarryInMichigan]

The ones circled are the pulsing contacts.

If there are loud clicks in the receiver while dialing, it's because the receiver is not connected to the shunting contacts on the dial.  The dial is designed to bypass the receiver while it is turning to avoid those clicks.  They won't hurt anything while you are doing tests.

Larry

[Greg G.]

The ones circled are the pulsing contacts.

If there are loud clicks in the receiver while dialing, it's because the receiver is not connected to the shunting contacts on the dial.  The dial is designed to bypass the receiver while it is turning to avoid those clicks.  They won't hurt anything while you are doing tests.

Larry

Actually it's just one loud click as soon as I turn the dial, no clicks when it returns.

[LarryInMichigan]

The ones circled are the pulsing contacts.

If there are loud clicks in the receiver while dialing, it's because the receiver is not connected to the shunting contacts on the dial.  The dial is designed to bypass the receiver while it is turning to avoid those clicks.  They won't hurt anything while you are doing tests.

Larry

Actually it's just one loud click as soon as I turn the dial, no clicks when it returns.

That shouldn't be.  Something may be connected incorrectly.  Is anything connected to the two terminals on the opposite end from the pulsing contacts?  Do you hear a dial tone when the dial is turned away from its rest position?

Larry

[Greg G.]

The ones circled are the pulsing contacts.

If there are loud clicks in the receiver while dialing, it's because the receiver is not connected to the shunting contacts on the dial.  The dial is designed to bypass the receiver while it is turning to avoid those clicks.  They won't hurt anything while you are doing tests.

Larry

Actually it's just one loud click as soon as I turn the dial, no clicks when it returns.

That shouldn't be.  Something may be connected incorrectly.  Is anything connected to the two terminals on the opposite end from the pulsing contacts?  Do you hear a dial tone when the dial is turned away from its rest position?

Larry

It looks like there's one wire connected at the opposite end, the kinda green/yellow wire.  It breaks tone, but I get a "busy signal" when it returns.  Modification of what I said earlier: the loud click is heard when it returns to rest.

[LarryInMichigan]

From the picture, it looks like the terminal with the green/yellow wire attached goes to the shunting contacts, not the ones which should be unused. 

If you disconnect either of the wires on the rightmost terminals in the picture, does the phone go dead (ie. no dial tone)?  Have you tried cleaning the pulsing contacts (with a piece of non glossy paper)?

Larry

[Greg G.]

From the picture, it looks like the terminal with the green/yellow wire attached goes to the shunting contacts, not the ones which should be unused. 

So where should that wire be?

If you disconnect either of the wires on the rightmost terminals in the picture, does the phone go dead (ie. no dial tone)?

Yes.

Have you tried cleaning the pulsing contacts (with a piece of non glossy paper)?

Just did that.

[GG]

We get a disproportionate number of CDOs (Can't Dial Out trouble reports) here that turn out to be due to using VOIP lines with ATAs that don't accept rotary dial pulses.   For this reason, the very first thing anyone should check is that their CO line responds to dial pulses. 

1:  Get a known-working rotary phone such as any 500 set with a dial that is connected properly and on which the impulse contacts are known to behave properly, and connect that to the line and try to dial out.  If you can't break dialtone, you have one of those new-fangled VOIP lines with an ATA that doesn't accept dial pulses, and you should contact your telco and very politely demand an ATA that accepts rotary dial pulses. 

2:  Alternately, get a known-good dial and connect the pulse contacts in series with the Kellogg phone at the line cord (e.g. at the "plug" end of the line cord) and try to dial out.  You'll hear the loud dial pluses in the receiver unless you also wire the off-normal to shunt the line after the pulse contacts per below. 

Assuming a WE #7 or #9 dial, the wiring would be:  L1 (green) from wall jack to green wire on dial.  Blue wire on dial to L1 (green) in line cord to telephone.  L2 (red) from wall jack directly to L2 (red) in line cord to telephone.  To protect dial pulse contacts from excessive wear, a 0.1 microfarad capacitor at 200 volts, across blue and green wire from dial.  And lastly, the white wires from dial, across the green & red wires in line cord to telephone.   

Once you've verified that your line accepts dial pulses, then you can move toward troubleshooting the rest of the internal wiring in the phone. 

One thing I see from your photos is that it appears some of the dial contacts or wires connected to them, are very close to shorting out with other wires or with metal parts inside the phone.  For example the green wire to the innermost off-normal contact is suspicious (possibly shorting to another wire) and the screw on the outermost off-normal contact is suspicious (possibly shorting to the hookswitch assembly to the left of it, though, since the two leftmost off-normal contacts aren't being used, that may be innocuous). 

Another thing to try is to swap the yellow wire and white wire that go to the pulse contacts.  If these were accidentally reversed, the result could be your CDO problem plus the loud click(s) in the receiver.  I've seen that problem on other phones where there is a dial pulse contact that is common with an off-normal contact: if the wires are reversed you get CDO + loud click(s) in the receiver. 

Be careful when moving the wires that are connected to the dial: it appears that the ends of some of them are frayed or weren't soldered securely to the spade lugs that get screwed down to the dial terminals, so there's a risk of a) wires breaking (can be re-soldered) or b) frayed wires shorting something (should also be re-soldered). 

A needle-nose pliers is useful for rearranging or maneuvering spade lugs & wires around in phones that are too crowded or tight for fingers to fit.  Grasp the straight part of the spade lug to hold it in place while unscrewing or screwing down the terminal it's connected to.  This can prevent the end of a spade lug from moving and shorting to something while you are tightening the screw on the terminal. 

[Greg G.]

We get a disproportionate number of CDOs (Can't Dial Out trouble reports) here that turn out to be due to using VOIP lines with ATAs that don't accept rotary dial pulses.   For this reason, the very first thing anyone should check is that their CO line responds to dial pulses.  

GG, I'm using a POTS land-line, but I'll try your other suggestions.  Yes, some of the spade tips have frayed wires behind them and are barely hanging on.

[Greg G.]

One thing I see from your photos is that it appears some of the dial contacts or wires connected to them, are very close to shorting out with other wires or with metal parts inside the phone.  For example the green wire to the innermost off-normal contact is suspicious (possibly shorting to another wire) and the screw on the outermost off-normal contact is suspicious (possibly shorting to the hookswitch assembly to the left of it, though, since the two leftmost off-normal contacts aren't being used, that may be innocuous).  

I checked that green wire, and although there is bare wire behind the spade tip, it's solid (not frayed), but just to be sure, I rerouted it so that I could see it was not touching anything.  I checked that screw, the space is tight, but it's not touching.  

Another thing to try is to swap the yellow wire and white wire that go to the pulse contacts.  If these were accidentally reversed, the result could be your CDO problem plus the loud click(s) in the receiver.  I've seen that problem on other phones where there is a dial pulse contact that is common with an off-normal contact: if the wires are reversed you get CDO + loud click(s) in the receiver.  

Tried that, but all it does is not break tone at all.

Be careful when moving the wires that are connected to the dial: it appears that the ends of some of them are frayed or weren't soldered securely to the spade lugs that get screwed down to the dial terminals, so there's a risk of a) wires breaking (can be re-soldered) or b) frayed wires shorting something (should also be re-soldered).  

One of the wires going to the pulse contact was frayed, so I re-soldered it.  That's an accomplishment on my part since I've never soldered anything before.  It was a bit of a chore.  I had the soldering iron resting in it's holder, and was holding the spade tip with tweezers up to the soldering iron, while at the same time trying to position a bit of bare wire in place.  The tweezers slipped and hot solder and the spade tip went flying.  That was actually a blessing, because when I located the spade tip, all the old solder had come off, revealing an eyelet on the end that I could thread the wire through, which made the job a lot easier.

A needle-nose pliers is useful for rearranging or maneuvering spade lugs & wires around in phones that are too crowded or tight for fingers to fit.  Grasp the straight part of the spade lug to hold it in place while unscrewing or screwing down the terminal it's connected to.  This can prevent the end of a spade lug from moving and shorting to something while you are tightening the screw on the terminal.  

Double-checked all that, nothing's touching.  Still doesn't dial out.  Just to be sure it wasn't a problem with the PBX, I plugged it in to a different jack, same thing, and known working phone doesn't have any problems with the PBX.

[Phonesrfun]

Greg:

Since it seems that from the reading you were getting on the ohm meter that the dial is actually working, maybe a total rechecking of the wiring is in order.

At some point tonight or tomorrow night, I can probably give you a wire-by-wire hook-up narrative via this forum.  I can use as a reference the schematic and my own phone which does work.

[LarryInMichigan]

Even though the dial is pulsing, it may not not be pulsing properly.  If the pulses are too wide or too narrow, or if the contacts are dirty so that one pulse is electrically several, it will not work.  I recently switched my home phone service to Cavalier, and some of the dials which used to work stopped working.  Their equipment is apparently more particular than the previous provider's.

Larry

[Phonesrfun]

OK, I guess I sold my ashtray, so I am going from a Kellogg diagram.  These buggers are pretty complex, compared to other phones.  Note that the two outermost dial contacts that are not labeled with letters on the photo are not used.

Have fun!

The following are the original color codes from the schematic  If the handset cord has been changed out for a Western electric cord, the colors may be different.

Note that the dial has a strap from terminal A (See photo) to another point.  This strap must stay in place.  The two terminals at the far end of the pile up are not used on this particular dial.

Handset (Original colors)
Green Receiver wire to GN on terminal board
Yellow transmitter wire to Y on hookswitch
Red Common wire to R on the hookswitch

Line cord (More conventional way to connect)  Red and Green are the tip and ring ***
Red to L1 on terminal board
Green to L2 on terminal board
Yellow to GND on terminal board
*** Original wiring had Yellow to L2, Red to L1, and Green to GND  This can be changed to the above for a more normal hook-up, if it is not already changed

Ringer
One wire to L1 on terminal board
Other wire to C1 on terminal board

Condenser**
(1)Blue-Red to YL on hookswitch
(1)Blue-Red C1 on terminal board

(2)Black to C3 on terminal board
(2)Black to GN on terminal board
** There are two separate condensers in the same can.  One has two blue-red leads, and the other has two black leads.  Polarity is not important.

Induction coil
Terminal 1 Red to L1 on terminal board
Terminal 5-3 Red-White to RD on hookswitch
Terminal 2 Brown to BR on hookswitch
Terminal 4 Black to C3 on hookswitch
Terminal 6 Blue-Red to C1 on terminal board

Dial
A to R on the hookswitch (Slate wire)
B to RD on the hookswitch (White wire)
C to GN on the hookswitch (Green-white wire)
D to Y on the hookswitch (Green wire)

Jumper wires
Yellow between YL on the hookswitch and L2 on the terminal board
Green between GN on hookswitch and GN on terminal board

[Greg G.]

Thanks Bill for the specs.  I'm going to have to set this one aside in order to get the gf's Christmas present finished.  I need to wire the 302-as-a-subset part.