2500 keypad wiring

[MaximRecoil]

I have two 2500s that I want to swap the keypads around on, but they have different networks and the wire colors don't completely match up.

I want to swap this keypad...



... which is wired to this ITT 427 type network...



... onto this phone, which currently has a Western Electric type 72 keypad and a 4228 network:



At least a couple of the wires are the same color on both keypads, and connect to terminals that are marked the same on both networks, but there are several differences as well.

[HarrySmith]

I would suggest getting the wiring diagrams for both and comparing them. The connections are probably the same, just different color wires.

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks. I haven't been able to find a wiring diagram for the metal keypad. I don't even know who manufactured it because it came on a phone that had been remanufactured by a company called "Bayless", and they removed everything all traces of the original manufacturer (no idea why they did that). On the PCB that screws directly to the underside of the keypad, they used a Dremel or something to scrape off any manufacturer markings.

[MaximRecoil]

This is the wiring for the metal keypad / ITT 427 type network combination:

Keypad      Wire          Network
Terminal    Color         Terminal
Label                     Label
_________________________________________________________

2           Gray/Brown    Goes to hook switch (and to L2)

1           Gray/White    Goes to hook switch (and to L1)

R           Red           E2

W           White         GN

R-G         Red/Green     R

O-BK        Orange/Black  C

S-W         Gray/White    RR

And this is the wiring for the WE type 72 keypad / WE 4228 network combination (the keypad doesn't have terminal labels):

Wire          Network       
Color         Terminal
              Label
____________________________________________

White         Goes to hook switch (and to A)
(attached
to screw
terminal
on keypad)

Orange/Black  C

Green         F

Red/Brown     R

Blue          B

Red           T

Black         RR

White         GN

White/Blue    S

As you can see, there are significant differences, and not just with regard to wire colors. The metal keypad has 7 wires while the WE keypad has 9, and the metal keypad has 2 wires that go to the hook switch while the WE keypad only has one.

[Key2871]

L2 is equal to C. Move brown hook switch to the terminal on the back of the dial. For the polarity guard.
L1 is equal to F.

Your missing the rest of the wire designations.

The we dial is as follows.
GN is equal to GN.
R is equal to R.
C is equal to C.
Red is equal to T.

The rest of the wires should remain on the terminals connected to.

Basic handset connections are,
Red handset to E on the ITT terminal.
Black handset to B on network.
Green/ or white to GN.
The other white wire to R on network.

Does this help?

[MaximRecoil]

L2 is equal to C. Move brown hook switch to the terminal on the back of the dial. For the polarity guard.
L1 is equal to F.

The WE phone has a brown wire going from the hook switch to the L1 terminal on the 4228 network. Is that the wire you're talking about? If so, which terminal on the back of the dial are you referring to? There are 7 terminals on the back of the dial.

As for the polarity guard, I don't know what you're referring to. Neither of these phones have a polarity guard that I know of, at least not a separate one in a plastic enclosure like on a different 2500 (with a type 35 keypad) that I have.

Your missing the rest of the wire designations.

What do you mean?

The we dial is as follows.
GN is equal to GN.
R is equal to R.
C is equal to C.
Red is equal to T.

Here you say that C is equal to C, but above you said that L2 is equal to C.

The rest of the wires should remain on the terminals connected to.

Basic handset connections are,
Red handset to E on the ITT terminal.
Black handset to B on network.
Green/ or white to GN.
The other white wire to R on network.

Does this help?

I wasn't able to follow any of your post; I'm not sure we're on the same page. I'm trying to connect the metal keypad, which has 7 terminals labeled 2, 1, R, W, R-G, O-BK, and S-W, to the WE phone which has the 4228 network.

[Key2871]

OK sounds like someone wired the hook switch wires wrong.
Brown is supposed to be on C. The yellow and slate wires go to L2.
The green hook switch wire goes to L1. The White goes to F.
Then dial wires go to various terminals.
Let me see if I can find the dial informed I posted here in the tech section, and post a link...

EDIT: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20420.0

[MaximRecoil]

OK sounds like someone wired the hook switch wires wrong.
Brown is supposed to be on C. The yellow and slate wires go to L2.
The green hook switch wire goes to L1. The White goes to F.
Then dial wires go to various terminals.

You're talking about my Western Electric phone (type 72 keypad and 4228 network), right? If the hook switch wires are wired wrong, wouldn't that make the phone not work right? It works perfectly as-is.

Both phones work perfectly the way they are. I just want to swap the keypads around because I like the metal keypad, but I don't like the rest of the components on that genericized phone (plastic-framed ringer and quick-disconnect terminals on the network instead of screw terminals). The Western Electric has the better ringer (metal frame) and network, but I don't like its type 72 keypad. It has a worse key press feel than the older WE type 35, and the type 35 isn't that great either. This metal keypad I have (unknown manufacturer; do you know the make and model of it?) has an excellent key press feel, plus metal beats plastic.

Let me see if I can find the dial informed I posted here in the tech section, and post a link...

EDIT: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=20420.0

Thanks for the link. That seems to be information which assumes the keypad will be wired to a network that it would have been paired with from the factory. For example, some of those mention E1 and E2 terminals, which a Western Electric 4228 network doesn't have.

Maybe it isn't even possible to wire this mysterious metal keypad to a Western Electric 4228 network and have it work.

Edit: This one from the thread you linked to...

3. SC 35A11 (GREY & OFF WHITE VERSIONS)

Dial Static Shield to L1 on network.
Slate/White hook lead to "1" on dial.
Slate/white dial lead to RR on network.
Red green dial lead to R on network.
Red dial lead to E2 on network.
Orange/Black lead to C on network.
Slate/Brown hook lead to "2" on dial.

... matches my generic phone exactly, except he doesn't mention the white wire that goes from the W terminal on the keypad to the GN terminal on the network. But despite that, I'm guessing my metal keypad is an SC 35A11. Does anyone have a picture of the PCB side of one of those so I can compare? Google doesn't turn up anything.

[Key2871]

You were describing the dial with a screw on the back. That connects to the brown hook switch wire.
With that wire connected it insures the dial will work regardless the polarity of the line. If that phone has switch hook improperly wired in the phone, it will not dial.

Modern dials have guards built in, to insure they will work.
But it's important to have things, like the hook switch to work correctly. Western phones and ITT phones are electricly the same. The connection points are the same except the E points. Those are isolated from everything, and act as tie points for completing connections. With tone dials the Red transmitter, and either Receiver wire is also connected to those tie points, and must be correctly wired.

EDIT, older dials do not have polarity guards, like the 35 Series, even the older mechanical ITT dials.

Hey I'm trying. To help over an electronic device, I'm doing my best to understand what you are trying to convey about your dial problem.

Obviously I'm missing something. From your original post your complaint was the dial was not working properly.
So, a guy or two tells you it's most likely a bad chip, they. Are correct. Then you talk about using a 72 type dial, from an AT&T phone? Because that's who made those dials. Yes, there is a built in on the dial it's self a polarity guard. No you really won't see it, the tell tail thing is that screw terminal.
Now, if you look at the link I provided, you will see the designation for that dial, go down the list until you see AT&T 72H dial. It will tell you what terminal to connect the dial to on either We. Or ITT phone networks.
Simply Wright down the information and make all connections outlined in that link I provided. Now keep in mind that the hook switch has to also be connected properly to work. If, for instance the hook switch wires are Brown to L1, and not to C as it should, that will cause a problem.
So for sake of sounding sarcastic, I'll tell you how the proper wiring for hook switches go.
L1=Green. F=White. (For rotary dial sets) it varies at times with different tone dials.
Yellow =L2, with in most cases the Slate lead.
Brown= C.
These connected properly you will have no problem with touch tone dial pads.
As long as each lead from the dial is connected to each terminal, with corresponding lead(s) from such dial you should not encounter any issues unless you have a bad dial. Or in those cases the dial is not equipped with a polarity gaurd. Now, there are two other hook switch leads that are connected to R and GN respectively. Those act as shunts so you don't hear a loud click in the receiver when hanging up, or going Off Hook.
Now please follow these instructions, and connect every thing as it should, try the phone. If your still having problems, come back with a brief description of the problem and either I or some one else will try to guide you to a solution.

[Key2871]

Re reading one of your posts, you describe the dial with numbers, but did you not find the designation for that dial previously?  You showed designations for two dials, but am I to assume this dial you want to connect you have NOT found the designation for??

I was under the impression that you were talking about the dial you have that is defective, and a working dial that you don't have designation for. Quite confusing how you're writing about your problems.

So, if I'm going to keep trying to help I need to know if the dial you are trying to connect to another 2500 set, you do or do not have the designations for, in other words you either do have information on leads/colors that need to go to what terminal. Or you do not

[Jim Stettler]

In regard to the metal keypad: I am under the impression that the metal buttons are  just covers on the plastic buttons. If so then you may be able to disassemble the metal pad and put the covers on a different keypad.
Another option is to ask the payphone folks if you could swap a metal payphone keypad into the phone. My guess is (most likely) that they can be swapped.
I agree that the metal keypads have a nice look and would look sharp on a 2500 set.
Just opinions,
Jim S.

[MaximRecoil]

You were describing the dial with a screw on the back. That connects to the brown hook switch wire.
With that wire connected it insures the dial will work regardless the polarity of the line. If that phone has switch hook improperly wired in the phone, it will not dial.

That's the type 72 dial which is paired with a 4228 network (the third picture in my first post in this thread is of that phone). It has a white wire from the switch hook connected to that screw terminal on the dial. You said that phone's switch hook is wired incorrectly, but that phone works perfectly as-is. The other phone works perfectly as-is too (the first two pictures in my first post). I simply want to swap the keypads so that the metal keypad (apparently an SC 35A11) is connected to the WE phone with the 4228 network.

Modern dials have guards built in, to insure they will work.
But it's important to have things, like the hook switch to work correctly. Western phones and ITT phones are electricly the same. The connection points are the same except the E points. Those are isolated from everything, and act as tie points for completing connections. With tone dials the Red transmitter, and either Receiver wire is also connected to those tie points, and must be correctly wired.

Good to know.

EDIT, older dials do not have polarity guards, like the 35 Series, even the older mechanical ITT dials.

Yeah, some of those have had polarity guards added, for example, Western Electric part number 840364202.

Hey I'm trying. To help over an electronic device, I'm doing my best to understand what you are trying to convey about your dial problem.

I appreciate the help, but it seems we're not entirely on the same page. I'm trying to get us on the same page.

Obviously I'm missing something. From your original post your complaint was the dial was not working properly.
So, a guy or two tells you it's most likely a bad chip, they. Are correct.

That was a completely different thread in a completely different subforum. In that other thread, I posted that I thought it was probably a bad tone generator chip, someone agreed, I ordered new chips, replaced the bad one, and that fixed the keypad's bad tones. That thread doesn't have anything to do with this thread. This thread is only about how to swap my SC 35A11 keypad onto my phone with the 4228 network. 

Then you talk about using a 72 type dial, from an AT&T phone? Because that's who made those dials.

The type 72 dial, and the rest of the phone, is Western Electric from 1983. In any case, as I've said from the start, I have two phones that I want to swap the dials around on. One of them is a Western Electric with a type 72 dial and a 4228 network (third picture in my first post) and the other is apparently a Stromberg Carlson with a 35A11 dial and their version of an ITT 427 type network (first and second pictures in my first post).

Yes, there is a built in on the dial it's self a polarity guard. No you really won't see it, the tell tail thing is that screw terminal.
Now, if you look at the link I provided, you will see the designation for that dial, go down the list until you see AT&T 72H dial. It will tell you what terminal to connect the dial to on either We. Or ITT phone networks.
Simply Wright down the information and make all connections outlined in that link I provided. Now keep in mind that the hook switch has to also be connected properly to work. If, for instance the hook switch wires are Brown to L1, and not to C as it should, that will cause a problem.

In the thread you linked to, you didn't post any wiring information that matched my metal keypad. However, RotoTech99 did post wiring information for various Stromberg Carlson keypads, and one of the models he posted wiring information for, i.e., the 35A11, matches my metal dial.

So for sake of sounding sarcastic, I'll tell you how the proper wiring for hook switches go.
L1=Green. F=White. (For rotary dial sets) it varies at times with different tone dials.
Yellow =L2, with in most cases the Slate lead.
Brown= C.
These connected properly you will have no problem with touch tone dial pads.
As long as each lead from the dial is connected to each terminal, with corresponding lead(s) from such dial you should not encounter any issues unless you have a bad dial. Or in those cases the dial is not equipped with a polarity gaurd. Now, there are two other hook switch leads that are connected to R and GN respectively. Those act as shunts so you don't hear a loud click in the receiver when hanging up, or going Off Hook.
Now please follow these instructions, and connect every thing as it should, try the phone. If your still having problems, come back with a brief description of the problem and either I or some one else will try to guide you to a solution.

Again, both phones already work perfectly as-is. I'm not trying to fix anything because nothing is broken. I only want to swap the keypads, i.e., wire the SC keypad to the WE network, and wire the WE keypad to the SC network.

Re reading one of your posts, you describe the dial with numbers, but did you not find the designation for that dial previously?  You showed designations for two dials, but am I to assume this dial you want to connect you have NOT found the designation for??

When I started this thread, I didn't know the make or model of the metal keypad. Someone in a different thread said it looked like an SC, but that wasn't a positive ID, nor did he mention a model number. After reading the thread you linked to in this thread, based on one of RotoTech99's posts in that thread, it seems that my metal keypad is an SC 35A11. As for the WE keypad, I've known the model number of it all along (72H3A), because it's written on the keypad.

I was under the impression that you were talking about the dial you have that is defective, and a working dial that you don't have designation for. Quite confusing how you're writing about your problems.

I've been clear about what I'm trying to do. In my first post I said, "I want to swap this keypad... (followed by a picture of it) ... which is wired to this ITT 427 type network... (followed by a picture of it) ... onto this phone, which currently has a Western Electric type 72 keypad and a 4228 network: (followed by a picture of it).

Then in a following post I posted a chart showing how both phones' keypads (which both work perfectly as-is) are currently wired. You apparently read my other thread that I posted in the other subforum about fixing my metal keypad's bad tones (which turned out to be a bad tone generator chip) and thought it had something to do with this thread. However, it doesn't have anything to do with this thread. That keypad is fixed and now I want to swap it into a different phone, so I made this new thread.

[MaximRecoil]

In regard to the metal keypad: I am under the impression that the metal buttons are  just covers on the plastic buttons. If so then you may be able to disassemble the metal pad and put the covers on a different keypad.
Another option is to ask the payphone folks if you could swap a metal payphone keypad into the phone. My guess is (most likely) that they can be swapped.
I agree that the metal keypads have a nice look and would look sharp on a 2500 set.
Just opinions,
Jim S.

This keypad is entirely metal (aside from the PCBs, rubber membrane, and electronic components), rather than a cover for a plastic keypad. The keypads for payphones are entirely different than a 2500 keypad in terms of how they mount to the phone (at least the ones for Western Electric payphones are). I have one in my Western Electric 1C payphone. They look like this:



This is my metal 2500 keypad for comparison:

[poplar1]

There is no difference in a WE 4228 network and the ITT or SC network, other than perhaps the designations used for the blind terminals (those that have no electrical connection to the network components.)

Blind terminals on a WE network: L1, G, L2, S, T.

Blind terminals on other networks may have E1 and E2 rather than S and T.

Just wire the dial the same way it was originally installed (since it worked perfectly) when moving it to the new network.

[MaximRecoil]

There is no difference in a WE 4228 network and the ITT or SC network, other than perhaps the designations used for the blind terminals (those that have no electrical connection to the network components.)

Blind terminals on a WE network: L1, G, L2, S, T.

Blind terminals on other networks may have E1 and E2 rather than S and T.

That's good to know, thanks.

Just wire the dial the same way it was originally installed (since it worked perfectly) when moving it to the new network.

Well, the problem is, I don't know which wires on the SC keypad correspond to which wires on the WE keypad, because they don't use a color scheme which is entirely the same. Also, the WE keypad has 9 wires connected to it and the SC one only has 7. So that makes it impossible to wire the SC keypad to the 4228 network in exactly the same way that the WE keypad is wired to it.