WE #4 or Bogus #2HB dial

[Slal]

Hi Everyone,

BDM's update of Poplar1's topic about WE updating older dials (#2 to #4) has me curious.  Wondering if might have the opposite, so creating separate topic.

The dial is from a B1 mount 'franken-phone' that's been repainted, so no date on the inside.  A seamed transmitter cup is on a 9 line seamless handset. 

Patent dates for dial are in front so assume its earlier than ones with info. stamped on back.

Interesting that someone appears to have scraped the date off bottom of dial.

That has me wondering if reproduction "2HB" finger-stops are out there.  Please tell me, "No, you are starting to get paranoid."

Finger-stop seems suspect because it has sharp edges as opposed to more beveled edges found on 2 other examples I have.  The size of the "2HB" imprint is larger.

Also curvature of finger-stop doesn't match the dial's cup.  (I'd think their Q/C would've been a little better than that.) One mounting screw either isn't long enough or is stripped.  Loose on the dial.   

Card holder looks to be aluminum; the other two (from dials that have dates on them) are brass.

Does have notch-less number plate, but a decal has been applied to it.

So what say the experts?

Legit, a fakery, or impossible to tell since date has been scraped or worn off?

thx

--Bruce

[poplar1]

This dial started out as a 2A (Y BK BB W). There probably would not have been any dates or part number on the back, since it was made pre-1929 and the dial type was indicated on the finger stop.

The overstamped terminal W>R indicates that it was converted to either a 4H or a 2H. It's more likely that it was converted to a 4H, and there may even be part of the "4H" vermilion stamp visible next to the pulse pawl.

I'm not aware of any repro 2H finger stops, but, in any case, the finger stop seems to have been added later, i.e., after the original finger stop was removed to convert it to a 4H.

[paul-f]

I'm sure repro finger stops were available several years ago.  They were supplied with no stamping or with the character string of your choice.

Here's a photo of a repro marked 2HB resting on a 2HB dial.

Considering the relative value of #2 dials, and the relative ease of making the part, you know they're out there!

[Slal]

Poplar1, didn't know about no date on pre 1929 dials.  File that away.

Paul-f, your repro looks exactly like mine.  Will know to look for sharp edges and space between "2" and the letters. 

Can still learn quite a bit here-- even if in 'consolidation' mode & part hunting to get franken-phones a little more 'authentic' if that's right word.

thx 

--Bruce

[poplar1]

The spacing between the 2 and the letters is not consistent across the board. On some dials, the characters are evenly spaced; on others, there is a space. Another characteristic to look for on original finger stops is nickel plating.

[BDM]

Dave I was thinking that also on the plating. The plating on the pic Slal included doesn't seem to have the correct appearance. Also Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen an actual #2 dial (not a converted #2) that has the internal finger stop holes drilled/open. His does of course.

[BDM]

Exactly, and exactly why I do not believe they would have backed up so to say, and re-issued a rebuilt (from a #4 to a #2) dial which I believe is the original question. Also exactly why I will not turn one of my own #4 converted dials back to a #2 for my own liking. As grandpa always said, it ain't authentic, ditch it!....lol.... You get my meaning.

[poplar1]

Never thought about the holes--but it doesn't seem likely they would have added extra unneeded holes for a part that had not yet been invented (the internal finger stop).

Dave I was thinking that also on the plating. The plating on the pic Slal included doesn't seem to have the correct appearance. Also Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen an actual #2 dial (not a converted #2) that has the internal finger stop holes drilled/open. His does of course.

[poplar1]

If a converted dial (2-type to 4-type) has (or at one time had) the later twin contacts, and the W terminal to the left of Y as on most 5H dials, then there is another problem with converting it back to a 2: that is, the hole underneath the terminal strip (between BB and R) may have been made larger in order to accommodate the new contact spring assembly.

Exactly, and exactly why I do not believe they would have backed up so to say, and re-issued a rebuilt (from a #4 to a #2) dial which I believe is the original question. Also exactly why I will not turn one of my own #4 converted dials back to a #2 for my own liking. As grandpa always said, it ain't authentic, ditch it!....lol.... You get my meaning.

[BDM]

Off topic sort of, but is it me or is someone playing with the timeline of the post here? Both my post are together as are Dave's and out of the proper timeline order as posted?

[poplar1]

Sorry--made a correction and deleted the other one. That's why it's out of sequence now.

2-type dials:
Those that have patent dates, whether on the rim or on the back have:
AUG 13 12    AUG 24 15  DES MAY 7 18  SEPT 13 21

Checking 4H dials that were always 4H (no solder-filled external finger stop holes on the rim):
Oldest date on any I found is
AUG 24 15  DES MAY 7 18 SEPT 13 21 

Latest 2A checked: 230
Oldest 4H checked I 31
Would like to know if the AUG 13 12 was dropped because it was over 17 years old (i.e. after 1929) or when the finger stop design was changed from external to internal.

Off topic sort of, but is it me or is someone playing with the timeline of the post here? Both my post are together as are Dave's and out of the proper timeline order as posted?

[BDM]

Curious Dave what is the newest date you have for a #4 dial (not rebuilt)?

[poplar1]

There was a manufacturing necessity to start making 4-type dials, because of the recessed design for D1 handset mountings.
Since any dial equipped with the internal finger stop was backward compatible, a 4H, 5H or 6A could be used on a phone that formerly used a 2A or 2H. So there was no need to convert a 4H to a 2A or 2H, even if it had been a 2-type to start with. So this dial was no doubt made to look authentic---I'd like to hear what the seller has to say. (Probably, "the person that sold it to me said it was original!")

When using a 2H, 4H, 5H or 6A on a phone that originally had a 2A, it is necessary to strap the BB and W R terminals---but it's not necessary to install a repro finger stop.

Exactly, and exactly why I do not believe they would have backed up so to say, and re-issued a rebuilt (from a #4 to a #2) dial which I believe is the original question. Also exactly why I will not turn one of my own #4 converted dials back to a #2 for my own liking. As grandpa always said, it ain't authentic, ditch it!....lol.... You get my meaning.

[poplar1]

Curious Dave what is the newest date you have for a #4 dial (not rebuilt)?

II 38 newest, 230 oldest. All the date ranges are updated here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg125730#msg125730

[BDM]

For some reason I knew you had a post but couldn't find it the other day. Thanks Dave. I was wondering about my late #4 dial.