51AL Candlestick half way transformed into a lamp, Keep or Return?

[Doug Rose]

I think its a frankenphone as well.  I don't think shine is a good indicator of age as old candlesticks are being brassed out all the time, and brass isn't an original finish.  The parts may not be Korean repro, but possibly from one of the other sources?  The dial is nice, but keep in mind that the 164A dial plate did not come into service until after the vast majority of candlesticks had been phased out.  Its a red flag on a candlestick.

this brass dial was made in the first two months of 1949 only, well after the candlestick era. I agree with the shine of brass on the outside, but on the inside, it would never be this shiny if it was the real deal. ....Doug

[LarryInMichigan]

Jack,

Since the dial is somewhat valuable, and the receiver and mouthpiece appear to be genuine, I would ask the seller for a partial refund, perhaps $90-$100, if I were in your position.  I would explain that the transmitter (which is a critical component) is missing and that most of the brass parts look like reproductions.  If the seller agrees to a full refund with return, he is already out about $30 for shipping and then has to relist the item and expect a lower selling price, so it would be in his interest to cut his losses and refund most of your money.

I am sure that other forum members have opinions on this.

Larry

[Sargeguy]

I am not an expert on candlesticks but I have bought a few off eBay without any problems.  Old Phone Man's fakes page is a great place to start, but Korean repros aren't the only lemons out there.  Here are a few rules I follow:
-Avoid brassed out candlesticks.  They have been tampered with already and who knows what else has been done to them
-Avoid shiny glossy black parts for the same reason as above.  These originally had a japanned finish, nickel plating, or Bower-Barf coating originally, none of which had a high gloss. 
-Look for ratty beaten up cords and base covers, avoid brown lamp cord like the plague
-Look for older rural or Z-operator dial plates
-Look for the outside mounted fingerstops that indicate a #2 dial.  Don't expect one however as these were often replaced with #4s or #5s.  151ALs are more likely to have #4s.
-Original dial cards or no dial cards are the best, those fake ones that they sell on eBay are a red flag.
-The property of and patent dates were stamped, not engraved, onto the transmitter cup.  Also the 4 transmitter mounting screw holes around the cup should be closed.  Open ones indicate that it is most likely from a microphone or railroad dispatcher's phone.
-"May be reproduction" means "definitely a reproduction"
-Ask questions about the origin "estate find" means yard sale, cleaning out a barn is better, been in the family for generations even better, owned by my grandfather who was a Bell System installer is even better.

[rdelius]

Everything I see is original WE parts. That solid brass #5 dial is hard to find.The cup would not be a hard part to locate for replacement.
Robby

[Vern P]

I made a post the other day about his, but it got lost in space.

I agree this is an old one, not a repo.  The repo cups have a Nov. 1910 date on them, and the screw hols are just a slot.  This cup has the WE odd shape holes.

The lamp hole can be fixed easly. I use a soft brass weld rod to fill it, then re-buff.

Switch plate is old, the repo's are not this good.

Stem bolt is old, I don't now how to tell you how. You just need to but them side by side and it is plan as day.

Dial have never been repo, the cost, to do so was and is to much.  (yes it was looked into)

The rec. is a WE 706A.

Trans missing.  If it was going to be made a working phone, just use a T1 with leads. The old ones only work about 1/2 the time, and not very good at that.  (Phoneco made a net work with mike that fits inside the cup, works great, I have used the in the past)

At $160, yes it may be a bit high for a collector, I would pay $130 in a heart beat for this, if on a road trip. But I don't need any right now. But at $160, this is in line with eBAy sales.

What a re-fund ?? How chicken S--- it that   Just because your not happy with it, does not mean the seller need to give you a re-fund of any kind.
Would you do this at a live sale ?? NO WAY !!

Over the year (25+) I have over paid more than ones for something at auctions and yard sells, shop's and show's too.

YES you may not like this, but be a MAN and just take you lumps and move on.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Vern P

[Vern P]

YES I may be missing something hear.   But let me make a few points.

The link to "fake C/S" has been noted hear. 

In short, the repo base have a pin that is crooked, and marks around it, or the newer ones have "tap"rather than a pin.   The base is a bit taller on the bottom flat edge, only about 3/16 or so. I have a hard time with sometimes too.

It has been said that "the inside is to clean"  Have you ever cleaned a dirty nickel bell in ammonia ?? Not only does it clean the outside but the inside too.  I have never clean brass with ammonia, but it should work the same.

Vern P

PS I have a 51AL that is 95% with a 100% #2 dial up for trade.  Yes I may just sell it too.

[bingster]

Over the year (25+) I have over paid more than ones for something at auctions and yard sells, shop's and show's too.

I've done this, too.  I have to say, though, that once the initial sting of overpaying has passed, I've never regretted anything I've overpaid for.  You forget about it rather quickly.  And you can also look at it this way:  Some things we get are tremendous bargains, and are way undervalued.  Those cases usually more than make up for the few times we may spend a bit too much. 

It's just my opinion, but I'd certainly keep it and be happy with it.  If you dislike the unoriginal "brassed out" look, it's easy enough to return it to all-black, the way it originally was. 

[Doug Rose]

Was the phone sold as a phone or a lamp or an I don't know. I guess an auction posting would help?

Vern states that if you put the brass in amonia, he thinks it will shine like new. If he is correct, than the seller knew this was an empty phone when he/she took it apart to clean. I have never seen an old brass phone this shiny on the inside, so it had to have had help. "Patina" forming might be slower on the inside, but certainly not non existant.

The only true way to figure this out is to see the auction, if indeed it was an auction. Robbie and Vern think it is 100% WE real deal. With the pictures I have seen, I cannot agree or disagree, they are inconclusive. How about a picture of the phone fully assembled as found. I have not seen the base cover or the cords. Were the cords AC electric cords, or cloth.

As for a refund, I buy and sell on eBay and stand 100% behind what I sell. If I sold a WE  Candlestick phone, that turned out not to be 100% of what I said it was, I would offer a partial refund or take it back for a 100% refund. eBay is not a flea market or a yard sale. Sellers have a reputation top uphold.

Conversely, I would not be spending $160 for a WE dial stick unless it was perfect with a #2 dial, and an old marked bakelite receiver, they are too plentiful.

The brass 5H dial is worth $50 tops and the receiver $20, that's alot to eat if everything else is not the real deal.

As Rod Stewart said, "Every picture tells a story, don't it?" I've heard the stories, I need the picutres, good pictures, complete pictures....Doug

[wds]

I remember seeing the listing, but can't find it now.  Most of those items discussed were disclosed by pictures. 

I would feel worse if I were the buyer of this one:

http://tinyurl.com/4r2qz6d

[bingster]

Now that's just a shame.  The person who bought it is probably an amateur who has no idea what he's bought.

[rdelius]

That last one was a bad deal for a fake
Robby

[wds]

Did you notice that there were 39 bids on that candlestick?  Apparently lot of people were unaware that the phone was a fake.  Ebay even posts articles about being careful about fake phones - it's a shame so many people are will to spend a lot of money on something without doing any research.

[Vern P]

I just looked at Phoneco site, they sell the 51AL C/S KIT for $209 and a WORKING one for $239, add $30 for a ringer.

I remember when I paid $69 for them.
Vern P