OK Guys, I am about to give up. I have a customers phone which is giving me headaches. Turns out it is a frankenphone but the customer wants it! It is a WE D mount with a NE dial connected to a SC ringer box. I have tried a few different ways of wiring it and all I can get is a slight tremble from the clapper. Also, is the black wire from the phone which I have on the C terminal correct? It is supposed to go to GN which the box does not have.
Looks like a frequency ringer. What are the numbers on the back of the box and ringer?
That may be a frequency ringer. Is the clapper attached to a metal reed or to a pivot? What is with the loose wire dangling above the ringer coil?
Larry
The numbers on the back of the box are the same as on the front AR2156A. On the ringer coils is GY. On the bottom of the ringer bracket is 47G.
Those are the ringer wires, I disconnected them to hook it up directly to the phone line with a .47 AE capacitor to try it that way. I had it connected the same way it was when I got it.
The clapper is connected directly to the pivot.
That's definitely a frequency ringer. Best thing to do is to replace it with a SL ringer. I've been able to get those frequency ringers to work by cutting the metal piece that the clapper pivots on, but its a lot of work.
Can you move the clapper freely with your fingers?
Larry
Yes, the clapper does move freely.
I was thinking about cutting that bracket as it is a pretty big heavy chunk of metal.
By the way, the GY on the back means 50 hz ringer.
I took the ringer apart, correctly identified by WDS as a 50 hertz ringer, it is marked, see pictures below. My question is where to cut what. In the third picture if you magnify it where my green arrow is there appears to be a brass strip that flexes to allow movement, I am thinking this is the part that needs to be cut. Or is it the mounting that should be lightened? Any and all opinions welcomed!
Alternately if anyone has a SL ringer for this I would be interested in buying or trading for it!
Harry ,
Try using a 1 mfd. 250 volt capacitor in place of the .47 . I have had alot of trouble with AE's .47mfd. caps, on the straight line ringers also. I got 10 from Cliff and only 1 or 2 worked. The others had the same result as you are having now. Try it and see. stub
I cut where the green arrow is pointing. I cut just a little at a time, a little at the top, a little at the bottom, until the ringer worked. The ringer I modified was a Kellogg, but this one looks very similar. When I cut mine, I figured there was no big loss if it didn't work, as the ringer didn't work anyway. I was surprised to find that the ringer would ring again just by cutting that piece of metal, reducing the tension on the clapper. If you look closely at my picture, you can see the cut.
Stub, where do I find one?
WDS, thanks, when I enlarge your picture I can see the cut exactly where I was thinking. I figure the same way, nothing to lose! Did you disassemble, cut, reassemble, test and repeat several times? Sounds like a lot of work! I was thinking about trying to get in there with my Dremel and grind it without disassembly.
Also a question, I was under the impression SL ringers were 30~ but while searching the net for ways to change frequency I found several places stating todays phone lines are 20~. Is this correct?
HarrySmith ,
Radio Shack and yes the SL ringers are 20~. Try the cap before you cut. stub
QuoteRadio Shack and yes the SL ringers are 20~. Try the cap before you cut. stub
Actually, SL ringers will work over a wide range of frequencies. The frequency ringers are tuned to a specific frequency so they will only ring when a voltage at the frequency is applied.
Larry
Quote from: stub1953 on October 22, 2011, 10:57:31 PM
yes the SL ringers are 20~.
Just not worded quite right. North American CO's typically put out ringing at 20~ so a 20~ frequency ringer will likely ring where as other frequencies won't ring. SL ringers will work on 20~ or other frequencies as well.
Terry
Unfortunately, I couldn't make the cut on my ringer without disassembling, but it looks like you should be able to slip a hacksaw blade in the and make the cut.
Got a cap as suggested but it is still not working. I will be bringing home a saw and making some cuts next. Will post process and results.
Cut some and tried it again, still not working, I got nervous about cutting some more so I decided to pull out my meter and do some checking. I get about 28 volts coming into the phone for ringing. When wired into the phone I get 24 at the ringer. With the 250 volt cap it gets cut in half to around 11, with the AE .47 cap I get only 6 volts. Is this all correct? Remember I am not an electrician or an ex telco guy, this is the first time I have even measured ringing voltage. I only did this to be sure the ringer should be working before cutting more. Also I think I need to get a phone tester of some sort rather than hooking to my phone line as I only get a few rings before voicemail picks up so it makes it difficult.
Quote from: HarrySmith on November 07, 2011, 07:36:01 PM
Cut some and tried it again, still not working, I got nervous about cutting some more so I decided to pull out my meter and do some checking. I get about 28 volts coming into the phone for ringing. When wired into the phone I get 24 at the ringer. With the 250 volt cap it gets cut in half to around 11, with the AE .47 cap I get only 6 volts. Is this all correct? Remember I am not an electrician or an ex telco guy, this is the first time I have even measured ringing voltage. I only did this to be sure the ringer should be working before cutting more. Also I think I need to get a phone tester of some sort rather than hooking to my phone line as I only get a few rings before voicemail picks up so it makes it difficult.
How are you measuring the voltage? The ringing voltage is 20Hz AC, typically 90V. You cannot measure that with a DC voltmeter.
Larry
Harry, I am coming into this kind of late, but if you are trying to turn a frequency ringer into a straight line ringer, my own experience is that you might as well try to turn lead into gold.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on November 07, 2011, 07:50:47 PM
How are you measuring the voltage? The ringing voltage is 20Hz AC, typically 90V. You cannot measure that with a DC voltmeter.
Larry
Don't forget that the ringer coil, whether straight line or frequency is going to create a load, and reduce the measured voltage across the ringer coils, even if he measures AC.
I was measuring DC.
I don't think that a DC voltage measurement across the ringer will tell you much. There is no real DC voltage there.
Have you tried loosening the nuts which hold the clapper assembly to the ringer body to see if the clapper moves?
Larry
Something else to try while adjusting frequency ringers: reverse the line polarity. Yes this actually matters.
Last night I made a surprising discovery.
Kellogg 1000, D1000 HC 4K 15-G, with frequency ringer. Connected to extension output of Panasonic KXTDA-50 PBX.
Someone had slightly modded the ringer already such that it would make a quiet ring by tapping on one gong only. I fiddled with the clapper/weight position to try to get it to ring more loudly and strike both gongs: this didn't work, nor did adjusting the position of the "silent" gong.
Then on a lark I tried reversing the red & black leads from the Kellogg ringer. Voila! a louder ring, hitting both gongs! Next I put the ringer wires back to their normal positions and reversed the line polarity coming into the phone: the effect followed the polarity.
I do not think Panasonic uses a pulsed DC wave for ring voltage. There may be some slight offset or bias one way or the other, but not by much. And I think this effect may be interactive with the ringing condenser in the K-1000.
Nonetheless, getting a pesky frequency ringer to ring even quietly on 20 Hz, is always a good thing.
Success!!!
I removed about 2/3 of the "reed" and it rings! It is not as strong or loud as it should be but it is good enough. I also had to enlarge the mounting hole on one of the gongs as the clapper would not strike it. I tried reversing the polarity and it made no difference. Even though I did it wrong checking the voltage at least confirmed I was getting juice at the ringer! Thanks for all the advice guys.
At least we know a frequency ringer can be made to work!
Out of curiosity, if the phone and ringer were in regular use do you think it likely that the reed would eventually crack and break from flexing since you have chopped away at it?
Terry
If the reed is cut to reduce its width and not its thickness, I wouldn't expect that it would be any more likely to break than it was originally.
Larry
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on November 08, 2011, 10:12:21 PM
If the reed is cut to reduce its width and not its thickness, I wouldn't expect that it would be any more likely to break than it was originally.
Larry
Yes but I assume it flexes when it is ringing to allow the clapper to move back and forth? Now a rough cut has been put into it which leaves a point for a crack to start from as it vibrates. It would probably take a lot of vibrating before that would happen but it seems like it could.
Terry
Quote from: HarrySmith on November 08, 2011, 09:21:14 PM
Success!!!
I removed about 2/3 of the "reed" and it rings! It is not as strong or loud as it should be but it is good enough. I also had to enlarge the mounting hole on one of the gongs as the clapper would not strike it. I tried reversing the polarity and it made no difference. Even though I did it wrong checking the voltage at least confirmed I was getting juice at the ringer! Thanks for all the advice guys.
At least we know a frequency ringer can be made to work!
Well, I'll be danged.
keep up the good work.
Re. cracking of the reed: depends in part on how skillfully the "nibbling" was done. If the nibble started a crack, the crack could propagate. If the nibble was clean, probably not.
One way to test that would be to find a frequency ringer, do a skillful nibble, remove the gongs and just hook it right up to a 20 Hz ringing supply, for example one of those big power supplies from a 1A2 system. Then let it "ring" continuously for however-long, and check on it a couple of times a day.
If in service it would ring let's say ten times a day for one minute per occurrence, at conventional USA ringing cadence: call it 3-1/3 minutes of ringing per day, total of about 20-1/4 hours per year, or just over 811 hours in 40 years.
That translates back to 33-3/4 days of continuous ringing on a 1A2 ringing supply. So if your test ringer survived at least a month plus a few days of that treatment, it would have survived 40 years in fairly heavy real-world usage.
One sample does not make a statistically valid test, but at least it's an indication.
I thought about that while I was cutting, made pretty smooth cuts but I figure it is not going to be ringing all day every day so it should last a while. Good point!
I have attached a picture of my cuts. This was not quite the last cut, I ended up taking a little more off but did not get a final picture. The reed was originslly full length of the bracket it is in.
Great job with the cuts. It's nice to bring a ringer back to life that would have ordinarily wound up in the trash.