I just received this wonderful phone. I'll post the sellers pics - I'm mostly based on natural light for clear pics and that is in short supply right now. It snows!
I could purchase this phone from a German collector at a reasonable price. It's missing the second receiver. The terminals and a cord restraint are there, but where the hook should be on the right hand side, there is only a blind plate. Besides one screw which is also missing, the object looks complete. It was manufactured in 1912. According to the few information available, "Type 10" does not refer to a model year in this case, but refers to the tenth model issued by the manufacturer Eurieult which was taken over by Grammont soon after. An appearance of the model around 1905 is mentioned. Have a look at the hookswitch! It fills the entire upper compartment.
The material of the lower box is called ivorine or ivoirine in one source. That name refers to a type of imitation ivory, what it clearly is not. It has more the look of mottled brown Bakelite, but feels different. Could it be "Galalith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galalith)"? That would be casein (!) polymerized with formaldehyde?
Any additional information is welcome.
Sources I found so far:
http://www.l2l1.com/tel.htm (http://www.l2l1.com/tel.htm)
http://alain.levasseur.pagesperso-orange.fr/ (http://alain.levasseur.pagesperso-orange.fr/)
Very nice indeed! FOM for sure....Doug
Quote..Any additional information is welcome.
Perhaps this website may help.
Alain is a French collector with a wonderful collection and much knowledge.
https://www.telephones-anciens.org/
I can't find where it is written, but the reference to ivoirine is probably referring to the button to front (missing on your example).
Oh yes, the button. I had noticed it but forgotten to mention. Well spotted!
It's on the L2L1 site: "Le Type 10, conçu par Eurlieult vers 1905, reprend une base en ivorine surmontée d'un pied en bois tourné."
The base is clearly not wooden, it's a type of artificial cast or pressed material.
Quote from: countryman on December 05, 2022, 09:34:05 AM"Le Type 10, conçu par Eurlieult vers 1905, reprend une base en ivorine surmontée d'un pied en bois tourné."
Ahhh, now I understand what and where. Thanks for that.
Nice phone ( I daren't start collecting wood, the woodworm are fat enough ;D ).
I cannot find a reference to confirm why and I don't like to guess, but it appears some parts of that era were fabricated from a compound. Perhaps due to wood being prone to drying out and cracking it was considered areas of weight bearing support should have more strength and durability.
*Close up photos if you can please. :)
Edit: Comparison photos attached.
It's always interesting to look up the addresses which are invariably given on any of these phones: 3 Rue d'Athènes here. It seems any phone maker had a Paris address. I wonder if these were production sites or just prestigious offices? "La Sequanaise" apparently refers to the Besançon region, or Gallic folk settling there in the Roman age.
Ivorine...
never heard it before, what is it? The name has never been registered as a trade mark and appears in a context with several types of man-made materials:
-Galalith. It was quite new around 1910, and the Jura, next to the aforementioned historic "Sequanaise" region, was a center of it's development. But it can't be pressed or cast, it is made in relatively thin sheets and then carved for buttons, costume jewelry, knife handles,...
The phone base looks cast or pressed, and is thick. Also, Galalith must be stored dry to last such a long time, a problem for collectors of pens made from this material.
-Celluloid (cellulose nitrate). It was well known by the time, including its extreme flammability. Bad idea for an electric instrument, isn't it?
-Bakelite. It was brand new by the time and could have been made in mottled brown. But FABphone's photos also show lighter varieties, which cannot be made from phenolic resin. Light coloured Melamin-formaldehyde resins are also often called Bakelite, but appeared later. Even more, my object just does not feel like Bakelite.
To me, it melts down to Ebonite, hard rubber. It is normally black, but lighter versions seem to exist. It has the comfortable touch that this phone base has, and was well known by the time. Protected from direct sunlight it can easily last over 100 years without major deterioration.
More modern plastics like Tenite, ABS,... may feel similar, but came up much later.
I wonder how I could provide evidence to either option without destroying the object?
It can be assumed that this is one of the earliest "plastic" phones.
Quote from: countryman on December 05, 2022, 05:36:27 PMTo me, it melts down to Ebonite, hard rubber. It is normally black, but lighter versions seem to exist. It has the comfortable touch that this phone base has, and was well known by the time. Protected from direct sunlight it can easily last over 100 years without major deterioration.
You be surprised that Ebonite comes in a lot of different colors nowdays. Being that I use to be a pipe maker I used Ebonite extensively for making pipe stems. It comes in blues, reds, swirls, greens, pinks, etc. etc. Here are some samples of some of the colors.
Great thread!
Ebonite was something I had considered but much of it I see on telephones is damaged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebonite
Quote from: countryman on December 05, 2022, 05:36:27 PM...I wonder how I could provide evidence to either option without destroying the object?
Could you maybe perform the 'pin test' in an unseen area inside the phone? Heat a pin until very hot and push against the area in question, see if it melts?
Found this info:
http://www.polymersplus.co.uk/technical/ivorine.php
—-
What is Ivorine made of?
'Ivorine - Synthetic ivory, made from cellulose nitrate, a thin translucent sheet with a matt surface. Suitable for use with watercolour, oil, gouache or acrylic, but especially effective when used with transparent media due to the luminosity that can be achieved'.
'Celluloid is useful for producing cheaper jewellery, jewellery boxes, hair accessories and many items that would earlier have been manufactured from ivory, horn or other expensive animal products. It was often referred to as "Ivorine" or "French Ivory"'.
The use of the name Ivorine seems to be ambivalent - it even appears in the German Wikipedia article on Bakelite in an art and design context.
And in fact I am now leaning towards Bakelite after a hot needle test. It did not impress the material at all - no melting, no smell. Boys, I might have set the house to fire if it had been Celluloid ;)
The closeup view in the first picture shows the marbled structure quite good, it's not painted but in the material itself. The part is very thick, at least 12 mm (1/2").
The second picture shows the right hand side with the "blind" plate where a hook for a second receiver might be expected, considering there are terminals for one, and even a screw for the cord restraint.
Quote from: RDPipes on December 05, 2022, 06:38:59 PMYou be surprised that Ebonite comes in a lot of different colors nowdays. . . . It comes in blues, reds, swirls, greens, pinks, etc. etc.
Is this the same ebonite material used for many decades by Ebonite to make a wide variety of very colorful bowling balls?
A coupe more pics. I will not further "restore" or modify this piece, but preserve it as it is. It will be a display item exclusively.
Wow! Where did you find this?
Mike
Thanks for the reminder. I found it on ebay Kleinanzeigen (classified ads portal, no longer owned by ebay, but still using the name) for 120 Euro (127 $ US).
Quote from: countryman on December 10, 2022, 04:34:55 PMThe use of the name Ivorine seems to be ambivalent ...
I now stumbled over another early thermosetting pressed compound, called "Ambroin" (for an early socket and plug for LB phones before 1910).
A quick research even found a company "Ambroin-Werke, Berlin-Pankow" - never heard before.
A 1927 book then complains about a multitude of names for synthetic compounds appearing and disappearing on the market for electrical insulators. The book explicitly mentions Bakelite as laudable exception! A lot of innovation and testing new products happened around 1900, and Bakelite was one thing that made the race. Many others names have been forgotten and were never standardized but used in a confusing way. Apparently that is also the case for "Ivorine".
Ambroin at least is defined in the book: It was made from Copal and Asbestos. Copal is a natural polymer, related to Amber, but more easily available. Asbestos is... umm... scary :o, while bonded in a resin hopefully not an actual hazard.
Book: Gummifreie Isolierstoffe... (https://books.google.de/books?id=mXOrBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=ambroin+pressmasse&source=bl&ots=yWjpnyonbP&sig=ACfU3U1imqPwa4DI5AJuSs_-Gvxd76jvBA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizlZDn59_8AhVkQfEDHSWsCA8Q6AF6BAggEAM#v=onepage&q=ambroin%20pressmasse&f=false)
Addendum:
I just had a nice conversation with Bernard Chenot from https://www.museedutelephone.fr (Musée du Téléphone de Narbonne in France). He was able to lift the "Ivorine" secret for me: The name describes a compound made from gutta-percha, marble powder and sometimes cement. It was also used for other phone bases, like the Berthon Ader 1892: https://www.museedutelephone.fr/Documents-et-Photos.RB.htm (scroll down a little in the link).
Thanks to Bernard!