Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Talk => Pay Station Telephones => Western Electric Pay Phones => Topic started by: hydephone on June 07, 2017, 01:02:57 PM

Title: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 07, 2017, 01:02:57 PM
I am trying to repair a payphone that has been reworked for residential service.

The front part of the phone is connected electrically to the wall mounted part with a KS-21276 11 pin round connector.

There are a number of wires to the connector hanging free.  I believe the soldering and the wires have just given up the ghost over time and that if I could reconnect things it would work again.  It worked last year.

Here is a table of wire colors that shows what I have.  Pin # is the pin number, plug side is connected wires, hanging loose are the wires  I think I need to connect, and socket side is what is what is connected to the backside of the socket.  The piece the socket is in appears to be numbered 557F WE if that is important.  I am looking for some direction on what to connect to what:



























Pin #           Plug side       Hanging loose      Socket side     
1Brown          Brown w/yellow
2          White w/bluePurple
3OrangeOrange
4Yellow  Red w/green
5Green          Green
6Light blue          Blue w/red
7PurpleNote below   
8Gray          Note below
9White          Yellow w/green
10Red         Red
11Black          Black
Note below:  On the socket side, the 4 pin is also connected to the 7 and 8 pins with black wires.


I am about halfway ready to hook up the 3 pin to the loose orange, 10 to the loose red, and 11 to the loose black, but have no idea where to put the loose yellow or the loose white w/blue.

Help?  Ideas?  Resources?  Guidance?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 07, 2017, 01:33:46 PM
Look in the TCI library for the Bell System Practice (BSP) for the appropriate coin telephone set, (1A or 1C, you did not state which you have).  http://telephonecollectors.info/

The BSP shows all interconnections between the coin chassis, upper housing and Totalizer, which use 11-pin "octal" style plugs and sockets in the 1A and 1C sets.

Stamped on the metal chassis running the length of the upper housing along the right side is a number like "32A" which designates the coin chassis code.  IIRC, 557F is the part # on an integrated circuit, just a component.  There is also a number on the totalizer.  These things together identify it as a "prepay" 1A type or convertible "prepay (coin first) / dial tone first" 1C coin telephone set.  The 1C CF/DTF Totalizer also has a slide switch on it.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 08, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
Thanks for the response!!

I didn't identify what set I have because I don't know and don't know how to tell.

I poked around over at the suggested site.
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/most-popular/coin-sets-cb (http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/most-popular/coin-sets-cb) was one place I looked.

I see things like BSP section 506-410-401 August 1980 1D/2D Type Coin Telephone Sets (or 506-410-400) and I can clearly see the parts in which I am interested.  Figs 1 and 4 in that document show my round connector and look just like my board.

I am not, however, finding anything on how to wire that connector or connectors in general.  Lots of mounting and installation instructions.  Perhaps my BSP search skills are too low.

I am still looking around over there, but would appreciate guidance from anyone who is more familiar with accessing those documents.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 01:06:13 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 08, 2017, 12:44:44 PM
Thanks for the response!!

I didn't identify what set I have because I don't know and don't know how to tell.

I poked around over at the suggested site.
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/most-popular/coin-sets-cb (http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/bsps/most-popular/coin-sets-cb) was one place I looked.

I see things like BSP section 506-410-401 August 1980 1D/2D Type Coin Telephone Sets (or 506-410-400) and I can clearly see the parts in which I am interested.  Figs 1 and 4 in that document show my round connector and look just like my board.

I am not, however, finding anything on how to wire that connector or connectors in general.  Lots of mounting and installation instructions.  Perhaps my BSP search skills are too low.

I am still looking around over there, but would appreciate guidance from anyone who is more familiar with accessing those documents.
I could be mistaken because I have not looked at one in a long time, but I thought the 1D used a D-sub connector instead of 11-pin round "octal" style internally.  That's why I suggested 1A or 1C.  Perhaps the 1D uses a D-sub and a round connector too, been a long time.  2A/2C/2D are flush mount versions.  1A/1C/1D are surface mount "box" versions. 

I suggested in my earlier reply that 557F might have been the part number of an integrated circuit, which only appears on the 1D coin chassis.  That would positively ID yours as a 1D type.  You have not replied to my comment about this.  Is that part # marked on a white ceramic IC with 40 gold pins mounted on the vertical coin chassis running most of the height along the right side?

The 1D uses an electronic Totalizer instead of an electro-mechanical one used in 1A & 1C.  The electro-mechanical Totalizer is a unit of about 4"x4"x5" with a clear plastic cover with a cable plugging into the coin chassis with an 11-contact round plug.

At this point it probably would be most efficient for you to post a photo of the insides of the back assembly with the upper housing removed. 

I have other BSPs containing complete wiring details which may not be available in the library.  Once we determine what you have we will be able to get you the info you need. 

Are the detached wires on the cable from the upper housing to the coin chassis, or between internal parts such as the Totalizer and coin chassis?
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 08, 2017, 01:36:18 PM
Thanks for replying.

QuoteThat would positively ID yours as a 1D type.

Well, that is a good start!

QuoteIs that part # marked on a white ceramic IC with 40 gold pins mounted on the vertical coin chassis running most of the height along the right side?
I will take a picture of the back of the board where I saw that number tonight and post it. I don't remember the IC.

QuoteThe 1D uses an electronic Totalizer instead of an electro-mechanical one used in 1A & 1C.  The electro-mechanical Totalizer is a unit of about 4"x4"x5" with a clear plastic cover with a cable plugging into the coin chassis with an 11-contact round plug.
I don't think I have one of those. The phone has been converted to work on just regular residential service.  When it worked, you picked up the handset, got a dial tone, and called. When it started to not work, I have reports that they could hear you but you couldn't hear them.  When I plug a basic landline into the interior socket, I get a dial tone.  This leads me to believe that one of the wires (specifically to the ear speaker in the handset) has just worked its way loose over time.  Again, I will take some pics and post them.

QuoteAre the detached wires on the cable from the upper housing to the coin chassis, or between internal parts such as the Totalizer and coin chassis?
The detached wires are the ones to the KS-21276 plug.  The plug is held in the end of a snap apart plastic handle (for lack of a better word) that also acts to hold the gray 11 piece wire.   Much like item 10 in Fig 1 of 506-410-401.  The loose wires are entirely within the handle on the backside of the plug.  I will photograph this as well.

Hang on for incoming photo evidence!
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 02:12:40 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 08, 2017, 01:36:18 PM
Thanks for replying.

Well, that is a good start!
I will take a picture of the back of the board where I saw that number tonight and post it. I don't remember the IC.
I don't think I have one of those. The phone has been converted to work on just regular residential service.  When it worked, you picked up the handset, got a dial tone, and called. When it started to not work, I have reports that they could hear you but you couldn't hear them.  When I plug a basic landline into the interior socket, I get a dial tone.  This leads me to believe that one of the wires (specifically to the ear speaker in the handset) has just worked its way loose over time.  Again, I will take some pics and post them.
     
The detached wires are the ones to the KS-21276 plug.  The plug is held in the end of a snap apart plastic handle (for lack of a better word) that also acts to hold the gray 11 piece wire.   Much like item 10 in Fig 1 of 506-410-401.  The loose wires are entirely within the handle on the backside of the plug.  I will photograph this as well.

Hang on for incoming photo evidence!
You're welcome.  In the first place, these phones are quite complex.  In the second place, the Totalizer, whether electronic in a 1D or electromechanical, plays a vital role, intercepting the speech circuit so that coin deposit signals can be sent to the line without being reproduced loudly in the receiver.  So depending on what kind of phone it was and what was done to it to make it work without coins, there are too many unknowns to diagnose until we make an absolutely positive ID.  OTOH, with leads having come loose, that's yet another major unknown that no document will show.

Another common failure which causes "no receive" in any kind of Touch Tone phone (coin or non-coin) is worn or contaminated dial contacts.  However we don't know yet whether you have a rotary or TT phone nor where the cable with the disconnected leads goes: to the dial assy in the upper housing?  To the Totalizer?

Ordinarily a 1C configured for Dial Tone First mode will work on an ordinary (non-coin) line without modification just for making and receiving calls with no coin functions.  A prepay/coin first 1A or 1C set to that mode would be unable to dial until there was a deposit. 

I would expect a 1D to work without modification too since it's inherently DTF also.  The dial must be able to function before coins are deposited so emergency 911 calls can be placed without a coin.  That was the major point of the costly conversion from CF to DTF.  Secondarily was elimination of people losing money by depositing it in non-working phones.

It's possible there's something I'm overlooking, however I can say I've had DTF 1Cs on my workbench connected  to ordinary lines and was able to make calls.  So I'd expect the same from a 1D even though I have not done it.

With all this said, it's sometimes the case that people modify payphones in ways that are unnecessary out of lack of understanding.  We'll sort it all out once we collect the appropriate facts.  There may be "alternative facts" in other domains but not in this one!

I expect to be off-line from later today for about 12-24 hours.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 04:42:29 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 02:12:40 PM

Ordinarily a 1C configured for Dial Tone First mode will work on an ordinary (non-coin) line without modification just for making and receiving calls with no coin functions.  A prepay/coin first 1A or 1C set to that mode would be unable to dial until there was a deposit. 

I would expect a 1D to work without modification too since it's inherently DTF also.  The dial must be able to function before coins are deposited so emergency 911 calls can be placed without a coin.  That was the major point of the costly conversion from CF to DTF.  Secondarily was elimination of people losing money by depositing it in non-working phones.

It's possible there's something I'm overlooking, however I can say I've had DTF 1Cs on my workbench connected  to ordinary lines and was able to make calls.  So I'd expect the same from a 1D even though I have not done it.

I have a complete unmodified 1D2. It is capable of making and receiving calls without depositing coins as you describe. It has a D-sub connector for the electronic totalizer, but the upper housing still uses the old style round connector to connect the switchook, handset, and touch calling unit to the chassis. I believe the upper housing connections to the round plug are the connections hydephone is referring to.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 05:07:43 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 04:42:29 PM
I have a complete unmodified 1D2. It is capable of making and receiving calls without depositing coins as you describe. It has a D-sub connector for the electronic totalizer, but the upper housing still uses the old style round connector to connect the switchook, handset, and touch calling unit to the chassis. I believe the upper housing connections to the round plug are the connections hydephone is referring to.
Good!  Does it contain a 557F IC or do you see that number marked somewhere else? 

Although I'm pretty sure the upper housings are interchangeable at least between a 1C and 1D, IIRC, even a 1C requires wiring changes in the U/H (as well as back assy) to convert from CF to DTF.    So the first essential is to ID which model he has.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 08:06:06 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 05:07:43 PM
Good!  Does it contain a 557F IC or do you see that number marked somewhere else? 

Although I'm pretty sure the upper housings are interchangeable at least between a 1C and 1D, IIRC, even a 1C requires wiring changes in the U/H (as well as back assy) to convert from CF to DTF.    So the first essential is to ID which model he has.

There are no ICs apparent anywhere in my 1D2. I wonder if hydephone may have some kind of COCOT.

Hydephone, if you could post some pictures of your actual phone it would probably help us see what exactly you're trying to deal with.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 09:06:57 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 08:06:06 PM
There are no ICs apparent anywhere in my 1D2. I wonder if hydephone may have some kind of COCOT.

Hydephone, if you could post some pictures of your actual phone it would probably help us see what exactly you're trying to deal with.

I believe there are different coin chassis for the 1D.  Perhaps only one has an exposed IC.  The number I remember with more confidence is 32A, which I think was the later one.  Do you see a code stamped into yours?

But I'm pretty sure the earlier one has a white ceramic IC showing.  I found a very rusty coin chassis by the side of the road somewhere, many years ago and remember that one having the IC showing.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 10:37:08 PM
Mine has a 32B chassis, with a 20A coin mech. There may be an IC in there somewhere, but I can't see one.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 08, 2017, 11:33:09 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on June 08, 2017, 10:37:08 PM
Mine has a 32B chassis, with a 20A coin mech. There may be an IC in there somewhere, but I can't see one.
I think its on the back of the coin chassis, not visible without removing it.  But (from memory), 557 is a series of IC codes.  Lots of Western Electric ICs have 5xx part numbers.  OTOH, if on the back, why would hydephone be able to see it?  Time will tell.  Maybe he dismounted the chassis.

Another reference for hydephone is the Coin Crafts or Public Services Crafts Manuals, which are also in the TCI library.  But there is no published BSP which gives much wiring detail for the 1D sets, including these manuals.  However I believe I had something which gives connections.

Nevertheless, p60 of the PSCM July 1980 states that IC1 of the 1D-type is a 40-pin hybrid IC, so that would make it a ceramic part as I described.  I'm pretty sure you will find it on the back of your coin chassis if you dismount it, but might as well wait for hydephone to post photos.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 12:58:44 AM
Okay here we go.  Pictures as promised.  Let me know if you need more.

Trying three per post as attachments.

The back part is mounted to the wall and has a regular residential service feed (POTS?) to it.  This pic shows the board part pulled out so you can see the wire through the back.

Here is the board in place.  If you call the phone right now, the ringer at the top will ring.

This shows where the front part of the phone chassis connects to the back part electrically. 
 

Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Continuing.

Shot of the wire coming through the back of the phone.  This is the regular residential service.  If I plug another phone in there I get a dial tome.

Numbers on the card.

Backside of the board.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 01:06:43 AM
Alright.

Here is the front piece.

The inside of the front piece.

And the number on the inside of the front.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 01:12:34 AM
Here is the main problem I think.  I thik if I knew which pin to connect which loose wire to I could be in business.  This rounds plug goes into the round socket in the earlier photo.

The line from the wall only has red, green, yellow, and black, but I keep thinking I need all of them hooked up.

Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 01:40:40 AM
Extra bonus pics to be thorough.

If I hadn't said so, the phone does not require a coin. Pick it up, hear a dial tone, dial, and talk.   
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 09, 2017, 02:04:30 AM
Quote from: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Continuing.

Shot of the wire coming through the back of the phone.  This is the regular residential service.  If I plug another phone in there I get a dial tome.

Numbers on the card.

Backside of the board.
OK, based on recognizing the components it's a 1D, which is also marked in white ink on the top of the vault in regular_residential_service.jpg near where the D-sub plug from the coin sensor is lying.  It's probably marked elsewhere too, usually on the back which is not visible since it's mounted.

The 71A is the code for the upper housing assembly IIRC.  It's very hard to know which code markings refer to specific parts and which refer to an assembly of parts.  That's always a problem.  The 9-digit numbers are Comcodes which were useful only for ordering, in other words useless to us now.

It looks like the plug which has disconnected leads is the only 11-pin plug in a 1D, the one from the upper housing.  That wiring should be the same in a 1C or 1D.  I wonder why anyone removed the body/shell of the plug, which normally clamps the cable and prevent leads from tearing loose. 

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/10506-506-410-400-i6-aug80-coin-tel-sets-types-1a-2a-1c-2c-1e

506-410-400 Issue 6 page 92 shows the internal connections of a 1C2 type coin tel set config'd for DTF service.  The previous and subsequent figures show different combinations of dials and CF or DTF service wiring.  However I believe the wiring of the upper housing (coin cover assy) PLUG is the same for all these sets including your 1D regardless of the configuration.  You can confirm whether the leads which are still connected match what is shown in this diagram and if so feel confident the disconnected leads should be reconnected as shown in any of these diagrams.

Let us know how you make out.



Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: mentalstampede on June 09, 2017, 02:53:52 AM
You may want to try to find a replacement for that whole cable assembly. With the rear section of the connector missing it is likely to be broken again. They're should be a protective cover to prevent damage to the solder joints and relieve cable strain that you don't appear to have. It also gives you something safe to grab when connecting or disconnecting the upper housing. I was going to open mine and see which color goes to which pin, but it seems to be glued together on mine.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 12:01:10 PM
I have the plastic handle/cover that goes over the plug. I took it off for the picture to show the unconnected wires.  The plug wasn't seated quite right in the bottom of the handle which led to the discovery of the loose wires.

I was afraid this was going to happen.  Page 92 of 506-410-400 obviously means something to somebody but it isn't real clear to me.  I have less of an idea what I'm looking at.

If I treat that as a table, then the 8th column from the left is J1/P1.  My plug has a J1 designation in the figures.  I think the
-----< <-------
looks like a plug connection so we'll go with that.  I will assume the right edge of the diagram is the consumer and the left edge is the phone network.

Based on that, I am going to:

1.  Put my loose red wire on pin 2.  My socket is purple on the back side and not (G) but okay.  Lower confidence.

2.  Put my loose orange on pin 3.  (O) on both sides of the diagram junction. Orange on the back side of my socket.  High degree of confidence.

3.  Put my loose yellow wire on pin 4.  My socket is red w/green on the back side and not (G-BK) but okay.  Lower confidence.
     
4.  Put my loose black wire on pin 10.  My socket is red on the back side and not (V) but okay.  Lower confidence.

5.  Put my white w/blue on pin 11.  The drawing has a (W-BL) and I have white w/blue wire. Yay! The back side of my socket is black and not (O-W) but okay.  Medium confidence. 

Plan is to slip heat shrink in place on the wires, solder the wires as above, but not do the heat shrink or attach the handle piece.  Go plug the front into the back and test to see if it works.  If it does, tidy up the connections with the heat shrink, put on the handle, maybe seat the plug with a drop of hot glue, and live life. 

If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan. 

I'll report back either way. 
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 09, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 12:01:10 PM
I have the plastic handle/cover that goes over the plug. I took it off for the picture to show the unconnected wires.  The plug wasn't seated quite right in the bottom of the handle which led to the discovery of the loose wires.

I was afraid this was going to happen.  Page 92 of 506-410-400 obviously means something to somebody but it isn't real clear to me.  I have less of an idea what I'm looking at.

If I treat that as a table, then the 8th column from the left is J1/P1.  My plug has a J1 designation in the figures.  I think the
-----< <-------
looks like a plug connection so we'll go with that.  I will assume the right edge of the diagram is the consumer and the left edge is the phone network.

Based on that, I am going to:

1.  Put my loose red wire on pin 2.  My socket is purple on the back side and not (G) but okay.  Lower confidence.

2.  Put my loose orange on pin 3.  (O) on both sides of the diagram junction. Orange on the back side of my socket.  High degree of confidence.

3.  Put my loose yellow wire on pin 4.  My socket is red w/green on the back side and not (G-BK) but okay.  Lower confidence.
     
4.  Put my loose black wire on pin 10.  My socket is red on the back side and not (V) but okay.  Lower confidence.

5.  Put my white w/blue on pin 11.  The drawing has a (W-BL) and I have white w/blue wire. Yay! The back side of my socket is black and not (O-W) but okay.  Medium confidence. 

Plan is to slip heat shrink in place on the wires, solder the wires as above, but not do the heat shrink or attach the handle piece.  Go plug the front into the back and test to see if it works.  If it does, tidy up the connections with the heat shrink, put on the handle, maybe seat the plug with a drop of hot glue, and live life. 

If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan. 

I'll report back either way.
I'll review your list later today or tomorrow against the diagram and let you know whether I think you understand it correctly.  I suggest waiting until I have done that before making any connections.  However if the leads that are still connected match your interpretation of the diagram it's highly likely you understand it correctly.

The wire colors on the plug side do not necessarily match those on the socket side.  There may be historical reasons why they don't.  What matters is that the plug leads which are still connected match what's shown on the diagram for the plug.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 12:19:08 PM
Quote506-410-400 Issue 6 page 92 shows the internal connections of a 1C2 type coin tel set config'd for DTF service.  The previous and subsequent figures show different combinations of dials and CF or DTF service wiring.  However I believe the wiring of the upper housing (coin cover assy) PLUG is the same for all these sets including your 1D regardless of the configuration.

I think this says the wiring for the plug is the same regardless of what it is going into so don't worry so much about the socket side, which actually raises my level of confidence once I thought about it and reread it.

Thanks for all your help so far.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 09, 2017, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 09, 2017, 12:19:08 PM
I think this says the wiring for the plug is the same regardless of what it is going into so don't worry so much about the socket side, which actually raises my level of confidence once I thought about it and reread it.

Thanks for all your help so far.
What you quoted does not really mean that.  It means that since the leads inside the plug are sealed in the shell they never change regardless of the type of service or type of dial.  Nevertheless your conclusion is correct, as I stated in my immediately previous message:

"The wire colors on the plug side do not necessarily match those on the socket side.  There may be historical reasons why they don't.  What matters is that the plug leads which are still connected match what's shown on the diagram for the plug."

I meant by this that matching lead colors prove you understand the diagram and that it is correct for the phone (though I'm quite sure there is no other diagram and no variation in wiring used inside the plug).

The only connections which ever change are spade tipped leads under screw terminals.  Soldered connections never change no matter where they are, especially sealed under the cap of a plug. 

Bell System telephone set installers did not carry soldering irons ever.  The earliest phones used screw terminal connections for anything which might need to be changed in the field.

You also wrote: "If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan." to which I'd comment: "not necessarily".  Restoring the correct plug connections is necessary but may not be sufficient if there is some other problem which originally caused it to stop working.  So first you need to restore the wiring and then go back to seeing what it does and does not do and try to analyze any possible malfunctions with the plug wiring having been restored.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 12, 2017, 11:44:40 AM
There is no joy in Mudville.

Happily soldered up my wires, went over and plugged my plug in, no joy.  No tone. No nothing.  Disappointed, was hoping this would work.

Okay.

I have no telephone repair history, but basic electronics skills.  Are there trouble shooting steps I can take to further identify the problem?  The line is good up the site (verified by ATT).  When I plug another phone into the jack I get a dial tone.

   



Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: mentalstampede on June 12, 2017, 01:55:16 PM
Try disconnecting the yellow and black line wires from the main terminal block. You only need to use Tip and Ring (the red and green wires) for standard service. I don't know if this is causing your problems, but it is possible.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Payphone installer on June 12, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
I am amazed at this thread, if the dial plug has been destroyed  throw all of it away and get another dial. A true 1A telephone was CF which means coin first only. It operated off of a ground start central office line. So that means you had to satisfy the initial rate before you make the call that is where the totalizer came into play.

Once you satisfy it,it will home and close the circuit that allows the tip ground to be applied the the line which in turn draws the dial tone.
On a CF phone, tie the trigger back with a rubber band and the phone should work after the rate is satisfied.
On a DTF phone which can only be a 1C or a 1D never a 1A that I have seen, you should be able to draw dial tone as soon as you go off hook because that's how it worked as a standard telephone.
The only thing that prevented the phone from calling anywhere any time was the central office. The CO looked for a ground on the tip side after a number was dialed based on the number dialed, so the CO looked for the tip ground after the initial rate was satisfied which occurred after the digits were dialed this is called a wink. .
The TCI libary will not give you answers just staring at BSP's, you need to understand the relationship between the CO and the payphone. A 1C can be CF (coin first) or DTF (dial tone first) it depends on how it is wired. I think a 1D can only be DTF but can't remember.
The term that a payphone has been modified for home use is crazy because it worked as it was made if you understand how it was made and how it worked.
Any dumb set should work if the parts are wired for DTF or CF. The problem you get into is folks are matching up parts that are not wired correctly, like a CF wired dial in a DTF payphone. This is where the TCI library if complete may be of use.
But you still have to know what dial pad you have which is 1A,1B or 1C. To sum this up do you have a 1A,1C or 1D and is your payphone CF or DTF or PP if so are all the parts wired correctly? If the parts have been chopped up throw them away and get a working part that is DTF or CF.
The major reason for the conversion  from CF to DTF was 911 it was all about eliminating fire and police call boxes and everything that it took to support them. It was also about the phone company selling 911 CO service to each and every county in the country and getting paid by way of telecom taxes.
Marking on the parts and or housing are generally meaningless  as the repair folks swamped parts all day and as parts were refurbished they were not often marked or markings upgraded. I was a installer at Cincinnati Bell when we changed from CF to DTF, we wired the 1C parts up one at a time in the field unless they were 1A,if they were 1A out they came. We also removed black grommet handsets and plastic dial buttons. It was all very systematic and done in the field. Trying to sort this out with butchered parts with nothing to stare and compare to is a waste of time,you are better off focusing on getting working parts for your phone. I personally find the 1C way more interesting then the 1D and also the 1E and 1E1 the most fascinating of all.  The manual 1E1 is impossible to get. Good luck on your project.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 12, 2017, 11:26:10 PM
Look at the photos.  The photos establish that it is a 1D.  1Ds are DTF only.  The first thing he needed to do was reconnect the broken dial leads.  Presumably the phone has the same upper housing as when it worked so the dial is probably wired correctly.  Systematic troubleshooting is required now that the dial plug is reconnected.  I'm not prepared to spend the time tonight.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Payphone installer on June 13, 2017, 06:52:02 AM
Repairman don't presume anything it is either wired for dial tone first or it's not,that is trouble shooting. I will be happy to send a working 1D dial in the box to this gentleman if he wishes to contact me simply so he can move forward with a working phone.i will even pay the shipping. The part is free trying to work with junk is painful to watch. Hydephone contact me and we will get your phone working. It may just require a whole new set of guts. Working guts.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 13, 2017, 11:22:10 AM
@payphone installer-   I appreciate that offer. If I understood one word of your 08:38:39 post, I might jump on it with both feet! LOL. As it is, I am still interested.  I have never installed phone guts and don't know how to do it. Let me work just a second with Mr Alex G Bell and see if there are any steps he can walk me through.  If we're unable to find the problem, new guts may be the way to go!

@Mr. Alex G- If you get a chance and if you've got an idea how to proceed, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 13, 2017, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 13, 2017, 11:22:10 AM
@payphone installer-   I appreciate that offer. If I understood one word of your 08:38:39 post, I might jump on it with both feet! LOL. As it is, I am still interested.  I have never installed phone guts and don't know how to do it. Let me work just a second with Mr Alex G Bell and see if there are any steps he can walk me through.  If we're unable to find the problem, new guts may be the way to go!

@Mr. Alex G- If you get a chance and if you've got an idea how to proceed, I'm all ears.
Later today or tomorrow as time permits. 

Do you have any double ended alligator clip leads? 

Do you have a spare 11-pin plug like used on the upper housing?  They're used on plug in relays and other electronic devices and are commercially available.

Do you have a DMM?

I believe I have a document showing the correct connections of the spade tips inside the upper housing for a 1D2 CTS.  I need to find it.

In the meantime, as I understand it the problem right now is that when you connect it to a line and pick up the handset you don't hear anything.  That does not really prove it's completely dead.  The receiver circuit could be open and it might still be seizing the line and the transmitter and dial might still work.

You need to connect a second phone to the line, pick it up and dial a digit to clear dial tone, then pick up the payphone handset and see whether you hear a click in the 2nd phone when the handset is picked up on the payphone and whether you hear speech from the payphone and tones from the dial in the working 2nd phone. 

If you hear a click but no speech and/or tones from the dial reverse the line connections to the payphone and repeat the above talking and dialing attempts.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 06:48:35 PM
Easier to buy a new dial. Go in ebay and look for a 61C dial.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 06:51:16 PM
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Western-Electric-61C-Keypad-Payphones-Payphone-TSG-Elcotel-Protel-Pay-Phone-/161491134324?hash=item25999f2774%3Ag%3AMXMAAOSw2XFUbRAZ&_trkparms=pageci%253Ab4d1c0bb-5153-11e7-86d0-74dbd18038e0%257Cparentrq%253Aa8cc038d15c0a99487848e90ffff7f26%257Ciid%253A6
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 07:05:13 PM
Oops!  And here I've been thinking that CRPF was about fixing phones of enduring quality rather than treating them as disposables!  Sorry for the misunderstanding!  :-(
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 07:09:17 PM
So fix it, buy a new one anyway and have a spare. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 07:13:28 PM
Make sure you have the totalizer plugged in. If not, it wont work no matter even if the dial is good.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Doug Rose on June 14, 2017, 08:44:14 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 07:05:13 PM
Oops!  And here I've been thinking that CRPF was about fixing phones of enduring quality rather than treating them as disposables!  Sorry for the misunderstanding!  :-(
if I find the time.......
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 08:55:06 PM
Quote from: Doug Rose on June 14, 2017, 08:44:14 PM
if I find the time.......
?
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: trainman on June 14, 2017, 07:09:17 PM
So fix it, buy a new one anyway and have a spare. Sheesh.
And BTW, the wiring of a dial unit varies depending on whether it's used in a 1C or 1D.  So even if he buys one off eBay he will need the same document to make sure it's wired properly as he would need to check the wiring on the one he already has.  Unlikely an eBay seller is going to know how the one he's selling is wired.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 09:26:51 PM
Moving wires on a terminal board is easier that trying to fix a socket. Not every one can read a schematic. Its easier to follow a chart.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: trainman on June 14, 2017, 09:26:51 PM
Moving wires on a terminal board is easier that trying to fix a socket. Not every one can read a schematic. Its easier to follow a chart.
Well he's already fixed the socket.  And I think he said he has an electronics background, so that would not be much of a challenge either.  And so far I have not seen anyone offer the chart.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: trainman on June 14, 2017, 09:46:42 PM
Chart is in the BSPs.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 14, 2017, 09:57:22 PM
Quote from: trainman on June 14, 2017, 09:46:42 PM
Chart is in the BSPs.
Which one?
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 15, 2017, 12:26:06 PM
QuoteDo you have any double ended alligator clip leads?

Do you have a spare 11-pin plug like used on the upper housing?  They're used on plug in relays and other electronic devices and are commercially available.

Do you have a DMM?

I do have clip leads i can use.  I do have a digital multi meter I can read voltages with. I do not have a spare 11 pin plug, I'd have to buy one.

QuoteYou need to connect a second phone to the line, pick it up and dial a digit to clear dial tone, then pick up the payphone handset and see whether you hear a click in the 2nd phone when the handset is picked up on the payphone and whether you hear speech from the payphone and tones from the dial in the working 2nd phone.

If you hear a click but no speech and/or tones from the dial reverse the line connections to the payphone and repeat the above talking and dialing attempts.

I don't know how to do this.  This sounds like I would need to take a phone cable, cut it, strip it, maybe solder on some spade terminals, and then connect it to the board.  Probably in the middle where the 4 big connections are.  I can find a cable to sacrifice if I have the jist of what to do.   

Edit:  In my board_in_place.jpg from my June 09, 2017, 12:58:44 AM post, the big yellow four place connection there?  Red, green, then black and yellow?
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 15, 2017, 01:14:31 PM
">" denotes previous questions.

> Do you have any double ended alligator clip leads?

> Do you have a spare 11-pin plug like used on the upper housing?  They're used on plug in relays and other electronic devices and are commercially available.

> Do you have a DMM?
Quote from: hydephone on June 15, 2017, 12:26:06 PM
I do have clip leads i can use.  I do have a digital multi meter I can read voltages with. I do not have a spare 11 pin plug, I'd have to buy one.
Good!

I'll try to guide you along performing tests which do not require an 11 pin plug.  That will require working with the spade tips on the screw terminal board inside the upper housing. 

Normally repairmen use a "cover parking tool" to hang the upper to the side from the back assem. so the cord can be plugged in while accessing the internal terminals and parts, and/or use an 11-pin extension cord consisting of a plug and socket. 

Assuming the phone is still on the wall, you need to create a similar capability, perhaps using a wire hanger to hang the upper.  Perhaps an "A" frame ladder with the work shelf flipped down would be a suitable height to place the upper next to the back assem. while it is still on the wall. 

If the unit is on a table now rather than mounted on a wall you can place the upper on top of a carton to raise it sufficiently for the cord to reach and be plugged in while accessing the terminal board inside the upper. 

Otherwise you will need to repeatedly unplug and re-plug the upper cord which will get "old" pretty fast.

> You need to connect a second phone to the line, pick it up and dial a digit to clear dial tone, then pick up the payphone handset and see whether you hear a click in the 2nd phone when the handset is picked up on the payphone and whether you hear speech from the payphone and tones from the dial in the working 2nd phone.

> If you hear a click but no speech and/or tones from the dial reverse the line connections to the payphone and repeat the above talking and dialing attempts.
Quote from: hydephone on June 15, 2017, 12:26:06 PM
I don't know how to do this.  This sounds like I would need to take a phone cable, cut it, strip it, maybe solder on some spade terminals, and then connect it to the board.  Probably in the middle where the 4 big connections are.  I can find a cable to sacrifice if I have the jist of what to do.   

Edit:  In my board_in_place.jpg from my June 09, 2017, 12:58:44 AM post, the big yellow four place connection there.
Instead of connecting a second phone we can work with the meter.  You  need to connect the meter, set to DC Volts, 50 or greater, across the R & T screw terminals on the yellow 4-terminal block to which the BL-W and W-BL incoming line wires are connected.  If the line is alive you will see ~50VDC across these terminals. 

When the handset is taken off hook, the voltage should drop from ~50V to between 2 and 12V.  If it does we will proceed in one direction.  If it does not we will proceed in another. 

If no DC voltage is present with the handset on hook you do not have a live line connected to the phone.  You must correct that to proceed and the previous conclusion that the phone does not work is invalid.  Its condition can only be determined after a working line is connected.

If ~50VDC is present and does drop when the handset is lifted the line circuit within the phone is intact and if you don't hear dial tone it's due to a fault in the receiver circuit.  Until we confirm that the transmitter circuit functions there could be a fault there too.

If ~50VDC is present but does not drop when the handset is lifted we need to troubleshoot the line circuit paths inside the phone.  You would be best to extend the T&R terminal connections out to the meter using a scrap of phone wire a few feet long so you don't have to hold the probe tips on the terminals during the extended troubleshooting of the line circuit which will need to take place.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 15, 2017, 08:36:47 PM

Okay. 

I have four terminals labeled top to bottom R (ring?), T (tip?), G (ground?), and L1.
Red wire to R, Green wire to T, Black wire and Yellow wire to G.

My multimeter says 53.4 volts across R and T.  This drops to 9.1 volts when the handset is lifted. 

I am hoping this is good data!   

 
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 15, 2017, 09:05:02 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 15, 2017, 08:36:47 PM
Okay. 

I have four terminals labeled top to bottom R (ring?), T (tip?), G (ground?), and L1.
Red wire to R, Green wire to T, Black wire and Yellow wire to G.

My multimeter says 53.4 volts across R and T.  This drops to 9.1 volts when the handset is lifted. 

I am hoping this is good data!   
It most certainly is.  The phone is "seizing" the line (going off hook electrically), which means we need to focus on the handset circuit. 

It would be good to know next whether the transmitter works and whether the dial generates tones when you dial. 

Find the screw terminals where the handset cord connects to the back of the dial unit inside the upper and with the handset off hook check for a low DC voltage across the RD and BK handset cord leads.  If there is DC there the transmitter is probably working.

If your meter has an OUTPUT mode and can measure AC with DC present, ignoring the DC, you can put it across T&R to detect presence of tones.  If there is no output mode or the meter reads the DC when no signal is present such as when the phone is on hook, place a 200V Mylar capacitor, value is not critical, 0.1uF is fine, in series with the meter to block the DC  If there is no OUTPUT mode use the 200mVAC or 2VAC setting, with the capacitor in series if the meter responds to the DC.  IIRC you're an electronics guy so measuring the presence of an AC signal superimposed on DC is probably old hat.

When you pick up the handset the meter should show the presence of Dial Tone.  When you dial a digit the level reading should increase while the key is pressed due to the louder Touch Tone signal.  When the key is released both the TT digit and DT should be gone and the meter should read zero.  When you push additional buttons the meter should show the TT digit level, a few hundred mV, while any key is pressed.

If the dial does not produce any tones but you detect DT while off hook swap the T&R connections to the phone.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 18, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Okay.  We have reached the end of my abilities.

I have electronics familiarity, can decipher a schematic, can solder, am comfortable populating a PCB (am trying to learn KiCad) but I am not a professional electrician.  I have never measured an AC signal superimposed on a DC voltage, don't know how to do that, don't have the tools for that, and am pretty sure I don't understand it.

I did, however, determine that there are about 23.4 volts between the red and black pins on the black squarish four pin modular connector that connects the handset cord to the dialing stuff.  The connector looks just like the modular connector in the item below.  The earpiece part of the handset is dead, dead, dead.  No sound. The microphone part works fine- when they call in other people can hear you speak "clear as a bell."

Could it be as simple as just needing a new handset?

http://www.payphone.com/Standard-Handset.html (http://www.payphone.com/Standard-Handset.html)


   
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 18, 2017, 10:58:08 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 18, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Okay.  We have reached the end of my abilities.

I have electronics familiarity, can decipher a schematic, can solder, am comfortable populating a PCB (am trying to learn KiCad) but I am not a professional electrician.  I have never measured an AC signal superimposed on a DC voltage, don't know how to do that, don't have the tools for that, and am pretty sure I don't understand it.

I did, however, determine that there are about 23.4 volts between the red and black pins on the black squarish four pin modular connector that connects the handset cord to the dialing stuff.  The connector looks just like the modular connector in the item below.  The earpiece part of the handset is dead, dead, dead.  No sound. The microphone part works fine- when they call in other people can hear you speak "clear as a bell."
OK.  I thought somehow that you did not have the ability to call it from another line.  Since you have done that you have demonstrated that the line and transmitter portions of the circuit work but the receiver circuit does not.  No need to make the measurements I mentioned. 

Understanding what I described would be good for your understanding of telephony and electronics in general but that's something you can grapple with at another time.

Was this 23.4V reading with the plug and socket mated or separated?  23.4V is a puzzlingly high voltage if they were mated.  I'm skeptical that this could possibly be correct.  If they were separated it's more reasonable, though still seems high.

What kind of meter did you use to arrive at this reading?

When you called it from another phone, besides the caller being able to hear, did you try pushing dial buttons on the payphone to see whether the caller can hear tones from the dial? 

If you try it and they don't hear tones, swap the line connections and try again.
Quote from: hydephone on June 18, 2017, 08:47:47 PM
Could it be as simple as just needing a new handset?

http://www.payphone.com/Standard-Handset.html (http://www.payphone.com/Standard-Handset.html)
It could be but it would be very premature to replace the handset at this point.  It could also be the dial or any number of other problems including some wiring mistake

If my understanding is correct that you have a DMM or analog VOM, disconnect the spade tips for the receiver leads at TB2 in the dial unit.  These are normally two white handset cord leads but in your photo it looks like they might be white and green instead. I'd expect the two leads to be on terminals 7 & 8. 

Or if you can make contact with the leads towards the handset the way you did measuring transmitter voltage with the handset cord plug and socket disconnected from each other this time that would be okay too instead of disconnecting the spade tips from the screw terminals.

Put your meter on the lowest resistance range and measure the resistance of the receiver from the telephone set end of the handset cord.  You should get a reading of less than 200 ohms and you should hear a click in the receiver when the meter is connected and disconnected.  The click may be faint.

Another way to test the receiver itself and handset cord leads for it would be to momentarily parallel the receiver with the transmitter by connecting the spade tips from the receiver leads, which I think are WH and GN on your phone and probably on terminals 7 & 8, with the transmitter leads which we know have DC voltage across them.  I'd expect the transmitter leads to be on TB2 screws 3 & 6. 

If the receiver unit and receiver leads in the cord are good you will hear a click when taking the phone off hook and probably will also hear dial tone though not very loud.

Let us know...
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 19, 2017, 12:10:54 AM

I pulled the modular connector apart and measured between the two pins on the red and black.  All I knew to do. I just have a basic hobbyist multimeter.  This one https://www.amazon.com/SE-MM6162L-Digital-MultiMate-Display/dp/B0014JWTC8 (https://www.amazon.com/SE-MM6162L-Digital-MultiMate-Display/dp/B0014JWTC8) in fact.

Didn't try pressing the buttons.  I'll try that and report.

Everything was working on the phone up until recently.  No one has opened it up since I put it up but me, so I really don't think anything has changed or become miswired.  It's much more likely some kid yanked on the handset and pulled something loose.  The disconnected wires I resoldered I think were just a product of time and environment.  Somebody abusing the handset is certainly possible with the environment.   

I'll try to work through poking about with 3&6 and 7&8. 

Thanks for staying with this for so long.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 19, 2017, 12:31:56 AM
Quote from: hydephone on June 19, 2017, 12:10:54 AM
I pulled the modular connector apart and measured between the two pins on the red and black.  All I knew to do. I just have a basic hobbyist multimeter.  This one https://www.amazon.com/SE-MM6162L-Digital-MultiMate-Display/dp/B0014JWTC8 (https://www.amazon.com/SE-MM6162L-Digital-MultiMate-Display/dp/B0014JWTC8) in fact.

Didn't try pressing the buttons.  I'll try that and report.
What you did was fine.  The meter is perfectly adequate.
Quote from: hydephone on June 19, 2017, 12:10:54 AM
Everything was working on the phone up until recently.  No one has opened it up since I put it up but me, so I really don't think anything has changed or become miswired.  It's much more likely some kid yanked on the handset and pulled something loose.  The disconnected wires I resoldered I think were just a product of time and environment.  Somebody abusing the handset is certainly possible with the environment.   
Good.  We can rule out miswiring.  But I'm skeptical that the leads tore off the plug by themselves unless someone left the upper housing hanging by the connecting cord.  The original plug cap clamps the cable tightly so the leads never flex at the solder joints.  It would have required something much more than even a 7.0 magnitude earthquake to break those connections even if the phone came off the wall as a result and fell on the floor.

The handset cord is also very strong with a steel cable inside to provide tremendous tensile strength.  Not easy to break handset cord leads except through the leverage of twisting and you would see the effects of that on the outer sheath.  Receivers can be damaged by severe impacts but you probably would see the result of that as damage on the outside surface of the handset.

Dials are a common cause of problems.  There is also a muting circuit which is intended to prevent you from hearing coin deposit signals sent down the line when coins are dropped in.   Lots of complexity in single slot payphones.
Quote from: hydephone on June 19, 2017, 12:10:54 AM
I'll try to work through poking about with 3&6 and 7&8. 

Thanks for staying with this for so long.
OK, good!  You're welcome.  I'm not a believer in "shotgun" substitution of parts if the parts must be purchased.  If they are on hand, sure, then it makes sense.  But there are easier ways to localize the problem before ordering parts.  If you have a spare phone of any kind borrowing the receiver from that, even loose (not in a handset) would prove whether it's the receiver in the handset or something elsewhere in the phone's internal circuits.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 19, 2017, 09:51:48 AM
Another thought about this: When you check resistance of the receiver from the telephone set end of the handset cord with the plug and socket separated also check resistance towards the telephone set circuit to see whether it's a low resistance, open, or a short circuit (<5 ohms) both with the cradle switch up and with it down.  Also with it up and pushing buttons on the dial.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 20, 2017, 01:44:59 AM
Okay good news-bad news I think.

Good news- When I call in, I can't hear them but they can hear me AND they can hear the key tones from the payphone keypad.  I didn't think of dialing a number "deaf" to see if it would go through, but I'm betting it would.

Bad news- I couldn't make heads or tails of the spade terminal set up.  The pins aren't continually numbered and I need more guidance.  With multiple pins of the same number I was very hesitant to start touching random stuff together.  Here is a picture of the best I could make of what pin is what.

Edit:  I know, it looks like I have three #2 pins, but that's what my notes say.  I'll double check it.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 20, 2017, 03:41:05 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 20, 2017, 01:44:59 AM
Okay good news-bad news I think.

Good news- When I call in, I can't hear them but they can hear me AND they can hear the key tones from the payphone keypad.  I didn't think of dialing a number "deaf" to see if it would go through, but I'm betting it would.

Bad news- I couldn't make heads or tails of the spade terminal set up.  The pins aren't continually numbered and I need more guidance.  With multiple pins of the same number I was very hesitant to start touching random stuff together.  Here is a picture of the best I could make of what pin is what.

Edit:  I know, it looks like I have three #2 pins, but that's what my notes say.  I'll double check it.
The good news is more important than the bad news: something important works.  The bad news is easily overcome with more info.

It's been a long time since I've been inside my own single slot sets so I forgot that mine contain a "terminal map" (photo attached) to facilitate terminal ID without having to read the low contrast molded raised #s.

So the terminals in the 2nd row you construed as 2-4-8-8-13 are actually 12-14-8-8-13.  The others are correct.

The photo I attached is for a 61A dial unit wired for use in a 1C2 set so the lead colors you see in some cases will differ from what's in your 1D2.

You should now be able to proceed to test the receiver unit, receiver cord leads and receiver circuit towards the internal telephone set circuit as I described earlier with resistance measurements and by connecting the receiver in parallel with the transmitter as a temporary signal source.

I see the RD and BK transmitter leads on 3 and 6 respectively, where they belong.  I don't see any lead on 7 that looks like a handset cord lead.  It appears that there is a YL handset cord lead on 8 but it's hard to be certain since the image is cropped and does not show the surrounding area. 

Are the handset cord leads really RD, BK, GN and YL?  Is the GN lead on 4 along with the W dial lead?  That would bypass the receiver attenuating circuit causing very loud TouchTones in the handset during dialing before the phone stopped working.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on June 25, 2017, 02:34:23 PM
Sorry, I was out of town on business.  I am going over to test things now.

Edit:

Okay, I think we are at the limit of both my abilities and what can be done and diagnosed remotely.

I don't know what to do with the resistance task.  I think I am looking for 200 ohms resistance between a white and white or a white and white with green across 7 and 8 with the handset unplugged.  I have 2 7's and 2 8's.  Brown on one 8.  White and white with blue on one eight.  Am I looking for resistance across the two whites on 8?

The handset leads really are black, red, yellow, and green.  I am assuming red and black are the transmitter and yellow and green are the receiver.  Yellow goes direct to the non two white 8 pin.   Green goes to the lower four pin along with a white that disappears behind the board.  Red and black drop right to 3 and 6. 

It has been suggested to me that if I take a battery and energize the leads to the receiver in the earpiece I should hear a click/clicking.  If I do not, that suggests the earpiece is dead.    I THINK THINK THINK this is the same as "temporarily parallel the receiver with the transmitter by connecting 3 and 6 with a DC voltage to 7 and 8".  Multiple pins, multiple wires confusing.  I don't know.  So I took a battery pack at 3 volts across the yellow and green from the handset and heard nothing.  No clicks no nothing.  Transmitter works.  Dial pad tones work. Accepts incoming calls. You get a busy signal if it is off hook. 

I am under a little time pressure now to get this fixed ("is it done yet?"), so I think I am going to take the shotgun shot in the dark approach and order a new handset. 
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on June 27, 2017, 12:05:11 PM
Quote from: hydephone on June 25, 2017, 02:34:23 PM
Sorry, I was out of town on business.  I am going over to test things now.

Edit:

Okay, I think we are at the limit of both my abilities and what can be done and diagnosed remotely.

I don't know what to do with the resistance task.  I think I am looking for 200 ohms resistance between a white and white or a white and white with green across 7 and 8 with the handset unplugged.  I have 2 7's and 2 8's.  Brown on one 8.  White and white with blue on one eight.  Am I looking for resistance across the two whites on 8?

The handset leads really are black, red, yellow, and green.  I am assuming red and black are the transmitter and yellow and green are the receiver.  Yellow goes direct to the non two white 8 pin.   Green goes to the lower four pin along with a white that disappears behind the board.  Red and black drop right to 3 and 6. 

It has been suggested to me that if I take a battery and energize the leads to the receiver in the earpiece I should hear a click/clicking.  If I do not, that suggests the earpiece is dead.    I THINK THINK THINK this is the same as "temporarily parallel the receiver with the transmitter by connecting 3 and 6 with a DC voltage to 7 and 8".  Multiple pins, multiple wires confusing.  I don't know.  So I took a battery pack at 3 volts across the yellow and green from the handset and heard nothing.  No clicks no nothing.  Transmitter works.  Dial pad tones work. Accepts incoming calls. You get a busy signal if it is off hook. 

I am under a little time pressure now to get this fixed ("is it done yet?"), so I think I am going to take the shotgun shot in the dark approach and order a new handset.
It appears to me that you need to re-read what I stated below.  It seems to me you misunderstood a number of points. 

Among them, you are looking the measure the resistance to determine its value, which normally would be an unknown value below 200 ohms, not equal to 200 ohms.  Another: all terminals with the same numerical designation are internally connected together.  The resistance between them will always be near zero (less than one ohm).

Placing a battery across the receiver leads would be another way to test the receiver IF you actually are working with the receiver leads.  I'm not sure you are from what you stated above, which seems to indicate some confusion.  Also this would only be a valid test if there is no short circuit within the phone's internal circuit.  That's why I instructed you to disconnect the receiver leads, which would eliminate a short towards the internal circuits, and connect them across the transmitter where it's been demonstrated there is DC present.

There's no need to speculate about the handset lead colors.  Although what they are may not be clear to others from a photo, the phone is in front of you therefore you can trace the leads coming out of the handset cord and determine the lead colors with absolute certainty.

Please let us know the results from connecting the replacement handset.
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on July 03, 2017, 05:52:24 PM
Okay.  New handset arrived.

Went over, plugged it in. With the old handset, they could hear you, you couldn't hear them. Transmitter, no receiver.

With the new handset, you could hear them, they couldn't hear you. Receiver, no transmitter.

Crap, I said out loud.

The green and black on the new and old looked the same, but the red and yellow were switched.  Okay, so I switched the spade terminals on the board thinking that might do it. Nothing, No sound at all.

Double crap.

Neighbor says, what if we just turn it and before I could do anything plugs it back in after giving it a quarter turn.  I'm thinking this is going to short it out, not going to work, going to automatically call 911 on repeat, something. 

Nope.

The phone works. Outgoing, incoming, hear this, hear that.

Closed it back up and walked away.

Thanks for all the help.  Thanks Alex G.  I learned a little bit!

Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 06:08:16 PM
Quote from: hydephone on July 03, 2017, 05:52:24 PM
Okay.  New handset arrived.

Went over, plugged it in. With the old handset, they could hear you, you couldn't hear them. Transmitter, no receiver.

With the new handset, you could hear them, they couldn't hear you. Receiver, no transmitter.

Crap, I said out loud.

The green and black on the new and old looked the same, but the red and yellow were switched.  Okay, so I switched the spade terminals on the board thinking that might do it. Nothing, No sound at all.

Double crap.

Neighbor says, what if we just turn it and before I could do anything plugs it back in after giving it a quarter turn.  I'm thinking this is going to short it out, not going to work, going to automatically call 911 on repeat, something. 

Nope.

The phone works. Outgoing, incoming, hear this, hear that.

Closed it back up and walked away.

Thanks for all the help.  Thanks Alex G.  I learned a little bit!
Congratulations!  You're welcome. 

But now it's your turn to teach me!   ;D  Turned what a quarter turn???
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: hydephone on July 03, 2017, 11:16:09 PM
The square black modular connector.  I'll have to go back over and look at it again but I don't think it is r to r, b to b, y to y and g to g. It is some other way, but it worked.  I'll take a pic tomorrow and post it. .   
Title: Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 11:29:53 PM
Quote from: hydephone on July 03, 2017, 11:16:09 PM
The square black modular connector.  I'll have to go back over and look at it again but I don't think it is r to r, b to b, y to y and g to g. It is some other way, but it worked.  I'll take a pic tomorrow and post it. .
That's puzzling! 

Is there a loud click in the receiver when you depress the lever in the center of the handset cradle to hang up? 

Are the TouchTone sounds in the receiver during dialing at a comfortable level like before it failed, very loud or absent?