Hi everyone,
Had mailed a seller who had dk-beige phone asking if he might have light gray one.
Replied he will look. Meanwhile he attached photos of a white one.
White wouldn't be my first choice, but if ends up being part of a package deal-- considering it.
That leads to questions I hope aren't inappropriate here.
1.) Fair market values for white and light gray? What would they cost at a phone show?
2.) Conflict of interest, or anyone know reputable sellers who might not advertise online? After purchase of a 'turquoise' phone that ended up being aqua (and a dial with "dash code" of 57) don't think I'll be doing much on eBay until have learned more.
Attachments:
Phone on left is one seller is keeping. He included side by side shot for comparison. Phone on right is one is he offering while looks for light gray one.
Photo two shows possible discoloration to cap or maybe trick of light?
Photo three doesn't seem to show discoloration.
Seller writes dates match except for transmitter & receiver. They are from August 1958.
Anyway, what say the experts?
thx
--Bruce
PS: If questions like "who sells them" or "how much are they worth" are poor form or might help sellers who lurk. Will quite understand. Let know & will edit/delete.
From what I can see there, the phone on the right (from August 1958) looks like a nice soft plastic phone. The coiled cord looks discolored but you can bleach that and improve the condition. White is a color that is often difficult to find in soft plastic. The photo of the underside kind of reveals that there is a date stamped along the inside edge. I think I can see numbers there. You might have the seller remove the cover and verify that the housing is soft plastic...ask about the date stamped there. The leather foot pads are nice. Around that time the foot pads were rubber or Neoprene...Looks like a nice phone to me. As I said, White is a difficult color to find in soft plastic.
~Dennis
Quote from: Dennis Markham on September 29, 2014, 08:53:54 PM
White is a color that is often difficult to find in soft plastic.
~Dennis
Thanks for reply.
Might find this amusing (coming from a newcomer like of me) but you seem to right on the money.
Couldn't find *any* that seemed to match & give me an idea of market value.
Ran across one that looked promising until saw 7 hole transmitter cap.
"Western Electric 500dr58 white" # 181537179387
Opening bid = $20.00
R = retractable cord?
Not sure I understand the logic on eBay though (if there is any.)
"Condition of the plastic is mint except for slight discoloration"
If it were mint, then by definition it wouldn't have any discoloration? :o
Cannot see all of HS cord & this brings up question. Don't have the following in my time line.
When did they go from straight to more tapered end that goes into receiver part of handset?
Example of 'tapered' cord = 271595476503
His price a little ambitious? What's going on with the feet? Half are from 1958 or earlier; half from around 1966 or later??? I can't imagine WE being that haphazard for lack of better word.
thx
--Bruce
1st one:
Yes, the R indicates a retractile cord.
If it's 1960, and not black, then it's not soft plastic.
2nd one:
Original feet were suede. When the phone went back to the WE repair shop, only the torn feet were replaced. Notice the black touch-up paint covering up original date and model number.
Quote from: Slal on September 30, 2014, 08:00:01 PM
Cannot see all of HS cord & this brings up question. Don't have the following in my time line.
When did they go from straight to more tapered end that goes into receiver part of handset?
Example of 'tapered' cord = 271595476503
His price a little ambitious?
The changeover in handset cords to the tapered strain relief was sometime in the mid-1960s, but there is no guarantee that any cord hasn't been replaced either by a phone repairman or the seller. This happened frequently on wall phones. So it's not a good way to date the entire phone. Soft plastic phones normally have thicker handset and mounting cords if they're the originals.
The $99 price on that second white phone is too high. It's barely worth the shipping price.
You didn't say what you're paying for the white soft plastic on the right in your first picture, but it's a very good example and I am somewhat envious. It's a birthday phone for me. I have plenty of birthday phones, though. Be sure to ask the seller to carefully check over the phone for cracks. White soft plastic has a tendency to crack--I don't know why. As Dennis said, white is difficult to find. Good luck getting your phone.
Quote from: jsowers on September 30, 2014, 08:35:01 PM
You didn't say what you're paying for the white soft plastic on the right in your first picture, but it's a very good example and I am somewhat envious. It's a birthday phone for me. I have plenty of birthday phones, though. Be sure to ask the seller to carefully check over the phone for cracks. White soft plastic has a tendency to crack--I don't know why. As Dennis said, white is difficult to find. Good luck getting your phone.
Birthday phone eh? Well if deal does through & you'd like to trade... ; )
Month/year means very little to me-- long as it's reasonable collecting investment & not paying too much again. ???
Could've been more clear though. The phone on right is *March* not August. The two parts that don't match are from August. Anyway, thanks for HS cord info & caution about plastic cracking.
To answer your question. We haven't talked about price for this one or gray yet.
Think seller is remodeling or something, and so he is busy. (Maybe reason he's selling some of this "spares" & claims hasn't had time to check storage unit where might have gray one?)
What would be a fair offer to him (or unreasonable one made to me) is why was hoping to get some information here.
After posting this topic though, a search about AE wall phones took me back to CRPF. Topic had an upset member using a term called "Mr. Helpful."
Now I understand why no price estimates.
Seller from eBay might lurk, and find out a phone is worth X dollars. He is listing same type phone for only Y dollars.
Seller:
"A collector says my phone is worth more? Raise reserve price!"As bidders we'd all lose, so my bad.
Thanks for replies about desirability of white phone in soft plastic, dates for timeline, and WE refurbishing practices on seeming 'mismatched' feet.
--Bruce
It seems odd that white 1957-early 1959 (soft plastic) 500s are not more plentiful. A 1960 ad suggests that it was the most popular color at 27% of the non-black sets.
What was made and what survived are evidently two different things, and we do see lots more 1960 white 500s than 1957-59 white 500s. Pink, green and red seemed to have survived in greater numbers than yellow and light beige. I don't know why.
I looked through bookmarks from 2014 and didn't find a white soft plastic 500 that wasn't painted, so that should tell you a little about rarity. Bruce, you are correct that we really shouldn't place an arbitrary value on these phones in a public venue. It's whatever someone wants to bid, and lately that's been a lot sometimes. Take a look at the thread of 500 set prices David (poplar1) started and we've added to, if you haven't already. There are some prices for light gray, but none for white.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12215.msg129033#msg129033 (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12215.msg129033#msg129033)
Thanks for clearing up the date on the right-hand phone. A phone from March is not a birthday phone for me, only the August capsules. If one of them says 8-20-58, let me know and we can trade.
Quote from: poplar1 on October 01, 2014, 07:11:36 PM
It seems odd that white 1957-early 1959 (soft plastic) 500s are not more plentiful. A 1960 ad suggests that it was the most popular color at 27% of the non-black sets.
What was verdict from earlier topics? Production numbers or marketing survey? If production, business or residential?
"Phone in Every Room" -- hotel chains or even hospitals might have bumped % up? *Subscribers* liked ivory so we see more of that color? Speculation unless someone has 'collectables' I'd think would be worth more than the phones.
Documents!
Meanwhile, after a few hours on eBay last night-- gave up. Couldn't find anything.
As for birthday phones-- am too young. Hard plastic and colors in march of 1965 not that appealing. ; )
thx
--Bruce
Fly in the ointment.
Seller sent photos of 'guts' to show matching dates, etc.
About 5 minutes later, a second mail.
"Nevermind. Has crack. Sorry didn't catch before."
Replied thanks for being honest, not nec. deal breaker but obviously affect price, etc.
His reply: "As is or want me to make it disappear?"
People can do that? : 0 !
Have read members remark (in passing) about "superglue & sanding" but would think a crack would still be visible unless something is applied *over* it. (Hence remarks about sanding?)
So right now in holding pattern. He has to find time; I have to decide if worth pursuing just because phone is soft plastic.
Bottom line:
How can a crack such as one in photo be made to "disappear?"
thx
--Bruce
It is not easy to completely eliminate visibility. For example on ivory Tenite 302 housings, I have succeeded to the extent that if you didn't know where the crack was, you'd spend a lot of time find it.
On other colors it really depends on the quality of the crack. The key is to eliminate reflection of light from 'glue imperfections' in the crack. Reflection occurs from regions of changes of the refractive index of the material. This is 'easiest' to avoid when dissolving the same plastic in a solvent and using this as glue, because that leaves only the same kind of material behind when the solvent has diffused out after welding.
The reason that it is harder on deep colored plastics, is because they absorb a certain frequency region of the light before reflection, or upon reflection--absorption and reflection and refractive index are intimately related. The reflected light is what you see. So with colored plastic one has to match not only the refractive index of the material, but also the absorption spectrum of the material. White or almost white materials do not absorb much at all.
Hadn't thought about refraction but makes sense. Black or white might be easier to match than say aqua or yellow because specific wavelength plus photons straying off at diff. angles?
Anyway, just a quick update. While typing last post, our dogs starting barking. Spend most of their time looking at street though bay window. They bark all the time when see people outside walking or jogging down street, so I ignore them.
They also bark at mailman, UPS, or FedEx man when he leaves packages on the porch. (You can predict where this is going.)
Seller has sent phone "as is." Didn't know collectors did that with phones. Pretty common with fountain pens: "I'll send it, you can check X, Y, Z and also see how it writes. Call me & we'll talk price."
Will update when have spoken to him.
Meanwhile, you do you guys think?
Leaning towards "leave as is." Probably do more harm than good if try to 'hide' it.
thx
--Bruce
Looks like a very nice set. Personally, I would attempt to repair it. I now know that I won't make it any worse, because I have done it before. I let a couple expensive phones sit broken for a long time until I had the courage to repair.
Quote from: unbeldi on October 10, 2014, 04:07:03 PM
Looks like a very nice set. Personally, I would attempt to repair it. I now know that I won't make it any worse, because I have done it before. I let a couple expensive phones sit broken for a long time until I had the courage to repair.
Thanks. Good to know crack can be covered up some day. Have to read up on topic. Am sure it's probably pinned somewhere. $10.00 'parts' phone on eBay to practice, or farm out to someone with experience depending on cost.
And that leads to brass tacks.
With no info. for soft plastic in white, had to get creative. Average price for some listings on eBay in hard plastic was $69.00 while a soft plastic in Med. blue sold for $129. That averaged to $99.
Rounded up to an even $100
Fair price or paid too much for a phone with a crack in it? ???
He's an interesting fellow to talk with since worked for phone company & collects phones. Has following speculation about why don't see more white ones.
There were so many white ones people just threw them away. Everyone kept colors like red. According to him, when they broke up phone company, could get a pallet of full of phones for six dollars. "If I'd have known then what I know now."
Hind sight is 20-20 as they say.
thx
--Bruce
That med blue went for low in my opinion. It did have a crack, repair job, and discoloration though.
KK
Quote from: Slal on October 11, 2014, 04:08:37 PM
Good to know crack can be covered up some day. Have to read up on topic. Am sure it's probably pinned somewhere.
This is one of several topics that address this restoration technique. I've linked to the middle of the topic but the entire topic, all 4 pages, are applicable to fixing cracks and filling gaps. It's a good place to start.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5059.msg63237#msg63237
Thanks for the tip. Painting MEK (2-Butanone?) onto inside of shell to get paste w/less solvent in it seems promising.
Problem is search reveals MEK expensive at $26.50 for 500ml (+ S&H.)
That's over 25% cost of phone itself!
So before spending any more money might have to do cost / benefit here.
Is additional payout for a $100 phone in this color worth it?
thx
--Bruce
I just checked Home Depot online, and they list MEK at $9.96 for a quart.
Yes, MEK is methyl ethyl ketone, butanone, or butan-2-one, or 2-butanone.
Acetone is dimethyl ketone, or propanone, or propan-2-one, or 2-propanone, and the price is about the same.
Thanks. Will look into MEK at Home Depot & create topic under "restoration" if decide worth the risk of me damaging phone.
But back to values exercise & fun with math. As I see more and more "Buy it Now" & "Best Offer" listings, my eventual goal is to get 30 scores in each group (color) so I can get mean, median, mode & correlation coefficient. Then new collectors like myself will have some idea of market values when negotiating.
Can work both ways. If sellers lurk, they can find out that selling a phone that's only worth X amount for a ridiculous Y amount = product will probably sit there a while. ; )
Still need at least one value for white, so will try one last time.
Someone take a guess for white or make up a number! Can't do anything with zero... ; )
Results so far.
Aqua:
2 results - mean = $360.99
Blue:
3 results - mean = $682.39
Brown:
2 results - mean = $537.55
Dark Beige
2 results - mean = $435
Dark Gray:
1 result at $360.57
Green:
2 results - mean = 63.50
Ivory:
2 results both = $69.00
Light Gray:
1 result at $63.00
Pink:
1 result at $75
Red:
3 results - mean = $42
Yellow:
1 result at $19.95
White:
no data
--Bruce
Quote from: Slal on October 14, 2014, 03:48:11 PM
Thanks. Will look into MEK at Home Depot & create topic under "restoration" if decide worth the risk of me damaging phone.
But back to values exercise & fun with math. As I see more and more "Buy it Now" & "Best Offer" listings, my eventual goal is to get 30 scores in each group (color) so I can get mean, median, mode & correlation coefficient. Then new collectors like myself will have some idea of market values when negotiating.
Can work both ways. If sellers lurk, they can find out that selling a phone that's only worth X amount for a ridiculous Y amount = product will probably sit there a while. ; )
Still need at least one value for white, so will try one last time.
Someone take a guess for white or make up a number! Can't do anything with zero... ; )
Results so far.
....
IMHO, none of these results matter or have any significance other that than that there are sellers and buyers. The eBay selling mechanism does not yield a reliable scale, because many items are listed by unknowledgeable sellers at BIN prices, being snatched, and many get listed at too high a price so that only someone for whom price does not matter will buy. If you are going to determine going market prices, you have to select only those sales that are truly auctions and have several bidders involved for some period of time. There are still many phones that are sold cheaply because they by chance are not exposed to a wider audience.
There really is no way to predict a price on eBay, other than the knowledge that certain phones most likely sell high, like a blue 302 or 500.
How did you arrive at ~$360 average, for example, for aqua sets? I sold one for $230 some time ago, and thought that was the highest I had seen up to that time, but I know there was at least one higher sale since.
Quote from: unbeldi on October 14, 2014, 04:02:33 PM
IMHO, none of these results matter or have any significance other that than that there are sellers and buyers. The eBay selling mechanism does not yield a reliable scale, because many items are listed by unknowledgeable sellers at BIN prices, being snatched, and many get listed at too high a price so that only someone for whom price does not matter will buy. If you are going to determine going market prices, you have to select only those sales that are truly auctions and have several bidders involved for some period of time. There are still many phones that are sold cheaply because they by chance are not exposed to a wider audience.
There really is no way to predict a price on eBay, other than the knowledge that certain phones most likely sell high, like a blue 302 or 500.
How did you arrive at ~$360 average, for example, for aqua sets? I sold one for $230 some time ago, and thought that was the highest I had seen up to that time, but I know there was at least one higher sale since.
Good call on error. My bad. Cut & pasted sum not mean.
Details for Aqua:
$38.99 + $322.00 = $360.99 / 2 =
$180.50 (eBay listings: 251625663973 & 251599951311)
Not sure understand about auctions. I'd argue there is no way to reliably predict the outcome because people aren't rational. Otherwise how could we make a game of it!
First thing's first though. Is this exercise even valid? (i.e. for some colors, are they in fact, even soft plastic?)
Assuming data is valid, I agree. Reliability is
always second most important.
A truism to say BIN prices are assigned by the seller. Assume OBO is probably within a given range of seller BIN-- percent or (a bit more fun) standard deviation units.
My hypo is that average (and perhaps median) of completed listings can be a reliable tool for buyers.
Of course I can't say that until refute the opposite.
("Average prices are not reliable." = false.) Confidence level or 'alpha' set at p < .10
So verdict still out & might not even be possible. (Which is why I like the challenge.) Can I get minimum sampling? Be a very long little side project! ; )
Thanks for thoughtful reply though. You raise some good points-- esp. how extreme scores will skew.
--Bruce