Difference of Opinions

[HarrySmith]

Please, by all means add your impessions Bruce, this is supposed to be a discussion about helping "Newbies".

[Dan/Panther]

Being a charter member here, I have always admired this site for the exceptional courtesy we have always seemed to show each other.
In the 5 years I've been on this site, I can not recall a single instance where I felt someone was openly rude or condescending to anyone. It is quite possible that if someone was offended by a regular member here, My guess is that person, either misunderstood the response, or maybe took it wrong.
I do not think that anyone that has been around here since the beginning, would accept anything less than helpful, and courteous response.
I know I wouldn't, and I doubt Mark Steven's would have, nor does Dennis Markham.
The people that have been collecting MUCH longer than myself, are VERY passionate about the Hobby, and are purists. That is a GOOD thing, so to be corrected, or to be reminded that we do things The OLD FASHIONED WAY, should not be taken personal, but rather be taken as good advice from those that want this to remain a  hobby, true to it's roots and not to go to Radio Shack to obtain advice on things that 99% of the Radio Shack personnel have probably never used.

D/P

[Sargeguy]

I always sell 202s with either a 634 or a 684 on eBay or Etsy, ready to plug in.  About 1/2 the time I sell candlesticks with subsets. 634s can be had pretty cheaply if you look hard enough, so adding them to a phone is generally not an issue, at least for WE.  Otherwise I find that many people don't read descriptions and are confused when they realize they a have bought a phone that does not ring.  This can lead to problems so I try to avoid selling D-1s or B-1s that are not fully functional.  I find that most people don't think that candlesticks can work on modern lines so it is not as big of an issue.  My biggest problem is with modern VOIP, cable, etc. so I only guarantee that the phone works on copper/POTS and a Panasonic 308.  I just avoid the whole tone converter, Magic Jack issue altogether.

[Sargeguy]

Also, many "newbies" start with a desk set and buy a subset later.  That is what I did and paid way too much for both of them.

[WEBellSystemChristian]

It amazes me; out of almost every group of people, there is always the jerk who likes to make everyone's day miserable. But on this forum, everyone is everyone else's friend, and always ready to help "the new guy". I was new here once, and I still am fairly fresh to the hobby, but I fit right into this great group of people, without being treated like a 2-year-old.

I have never seen anyone get angry or outraged at anyone else here, nor has anyone been inappropriate in any way, and that's what I love best about this place. Sometimes, once in a while, someone will act like they know better than anyone else (I know I do sometimes), but we all appreciate one another's advice at any time, and that's the way this forum should be.

[twocvbloke]

Prior to being here, I was on a forum (no names mentioned) that was filled with people who were the opposite of here, if you didn't follow their exacting standards when it came to vintage devices and thread subjects, you were an outcast, you weren't one of "them", and were treated as such...

I got into a disagreement with one of their moderators when I asked if anyone had any ideas on the possible use of a homemade electronic something (still have most of it actually) I had bought, drew out a circuit diagram and posted it, and goodness me I wish I had never bothered to take the time to do so!!! The onslaught of holier-than-thou attitude over the subject was just despicable, so after that unprofessional attitude from an apparently professional person, I left that forum, and that's kind of how I ended up here, with people who actually take the time to be nice and open rather than insist that amateurs remain as amateurs...

It's a shame really as it was a UK-based site filled with some decent people and a nice amount of info on some stuff, I even got my 240v to 120v transformer off one of the members who lived locally at the time, but, when a forum is run by unpleasant people, then it's generally an unpleasant place to be...

[dsk]

You have a good point here, everybody may say what they feel (about phone related stuff).
I guess the point of this thread are to remind us to be a little more careful with people  who don't know us well yet.

I have by other channels heard some critics about this forum, because we are coming with meanings, and not hard facts (documented), and this may mislead us etc.

I feel (and that's not scientific)its good to have the discussion of e.g. using a some telephones with or without subset, how to more or less temporarily substitute missing parts with whatever you have etc.  This may of-course harm a receiver after many hours of use, or make thing unoriginal, should you use your "new nice telephone, or trow it since you just have a replica cord? That should not even be a question!

So please everybody keep on, but have in mind not to scare the newcomers. 

dsk

[Phonesrfun]

I went back and read Doug's original post.  He asked if we were becoming a forum of snobs, and I really hope not.  I, like many others who have replied here, think this is one of the most friendly forums around.  I have gone to other forums for help on everything from changing a radio in a 2000 Mustang or aligning the headlights in the same vehicle to trying to change the screen in an Ipod.  I tell you, those forums can be brutal to a newcomer.  The telephone related listserves can also be pretty brutal places and so I have gravitated to this forum for my telephone discussing pleasure.

I have learned a lot from everyone, and the things I have learned predominantly come from those who have much experience.  Many of those who have experience grew up in the business under the Ma Bell umbrella, and the BSP's were the Bible in that environment.  I never did work in telecommunications, so I find the information informative.   I don't think it is anyone's intent who quotes BSP's to come off like a Bible-thumping evangelist, but I also think that body of information is valuable and informative.

For me, collecting phones is mostly about having them work.  Everyone is different.  Some like to have all colors of various models.  Vern Potter has been trying to find an ivory 1554 for a long time to complete his set.  My phones are pretty eclectic, and I don't have any theme or series collections, but they do work.

I don't mind if someone connects a phone to the line without a subset.  It's not my phone so why should I mind?   Yes, you get dial tone and it does dial out, if you connect it so that it does.  I just don't like the popping sound that is very distracting and the less than optimal volume one gets from hooking the handset directly to the line without a subset.  That is why I have suggested on several occasions to at least use a resistor and capacitor circuit to get about the same performance one would get from a sidetone subset.

But I digress....

When someone comes to the forum and says that they just bought a phone off ebay and it has 4 wires coming out and they want it to work, then I really feel that if I tell them that the phone was designed to be used with a subset, I am not being a snob or giving bad advice.  I think I am giving them information that will be helpful.  I don't look down on anyone who connects a phone directly to the line.  I have done it many times myself.  I just don't like the way a phone performs that way.

In all honesty, I have largely suggested that people inquiring go the route of getting a subset.  In recent posts, I have also suggested that they consider using the resistor/capacitor alternative and have even said that they could connect it direct if they so desired.

When it comes to dials versus Rotatones or some other device, my advice would always be to try to find out if it is the phone that is causing the problem before resorting to a Rotatone, Dialgizmo, or a 616.  In today's world, I would venture to say that more households in the US, Canada and Europe probably now get their dial tone from some other source than a telco-provided copper land line.  I have had an Internet provided "phone line" for about 10 years now, and the providers that I have had have all been equipped to handle pulse dialing.  From what I am reading all the time on the forum, many aren't so lucky these days.

It would be wrong to assume right out of the box that using a rotary phone on such a line was not possible and to immediately suggest that someone go out and get a Rotatone.  However, I think the reality is that POTS land lines are not going to be around much longer and when it all goes to VoIP based systems entirely, we will probably see the DTMF standard go away too.  Just my opinion.

This has turned out to be kind of lengthy, and I apologize for that.  My summary would be that this is a friendly place,  No, it is not a terrible thing to connect a phone directly to the line without a subset.  The telephone Police won't come and give you a ticket.  Yes, a subset does protect the receiver element, and your ears, and No, we should not automatically steer someone to a Rotatone or some other device when their rotary dial doesn't break dial tone.

In the spirit of Richard Milhous Nixon:

"I am not a snob" 

Cheers

[BDM]

Snobs? I do not see it. Man, I'm hungry for some deep fried Twinkies

[dsk]

This seems to be one of the looooong threads, and have to agree with Bill! It is much to say, and I cant resist to say more.

When I read  Doug's original post, I do as I do when I reed some books and ... I reed between the lines, and put in a lot of whats not written. When I read e.g. the Bible, I cant ask the writer, but here we may get some more responce from Dough. 


Regarding Telephone service in Europe, I know Norway. In short terms, pretty like US, but, ... It is officially decided to close down telephony via copper cables!!! It has started with some pilot projects, and so far the telco "says no problem" the users says something different! The pilot projects are based mainly on internet via fiber, and fixed mobile phones where fibers not there.  Non of these services support pulse dialing!
The services are not reliable during storms, power outs and great fires. (All tested during winter     )
Different alarm-systems seems to fail. Emergency calls fails! At home; we still have the POTS :-)  but for how long. The most reliable, an lo cost IP telephony I have tested so far are Callcentric, with a an inbound telephone number in N.Y. N.Y. ! And the tendency are mobile phones.

The job are moving to renovated facilities after summer vacation, and we will get a cell pone each. If we do not want extra tax, leave it at job when you leave for the day. (Or keep it turned off)

Do I like it? What may I do to get it as I want? ? ? ? ?

dsk

[Slal]

Please, by all means add your impessions Bruce, this is supposed to be a discussion about helping "Newbies".

Thanks.  Might be a little long though.

Interesting topic and replies.  For a newcomer might also be proof (imho) of the 'health' of this board.  On some boards a topic like this would disappear.  "No dissention in the ranks!"

First off, I like it here; have felt welcome & received sound advice, along with helpful 'hints' when posting at phone repair.

I say 'hints' because I appreciate *not* being given the answer to a troubleshooting problem until I've thought it out to the best of my ability.  Then (if I'm still stuck) I can ask if anyone has the time to walk me through it so I can learn.

What's nice about CRPF is that I haven't seen any evidence of what I call the "Cat Tease Mouse" game at phone repair. 

At analog stereo forums the "Cat Tease Mouse" game might go something like this. 
----
new-comer:  "Help!  I have an Acme A- 1050 reciever and its right channel is out."

Tech Tease:  "You can find the service manual and schematics here."

New-comer:  "Thanks.  Got them, but don't understand.  What do I do to fix the right channel?"

Tech Tease:  "I gave you the link so now you have your answer."

New-Comer:  "Could you be more specific?  What am I supposed to be looking for?"

Tech Tease: "Transistor.  RH power side."
---------

This game can go on & on until new-comer gives up, or signs off telling "Tech Tease" where he can put his cryptic advice!

No evidence of that here (at least on the topics I've read.)

Only cause of concern might if-- however well intentioned-- jargon is used that a new-comer with no experience might not know.  e.g. "Coil might be shot or might need to replace the old condenser with modern cap."

Does he know the 'lingo' ?  From the topic that seems to have started this one-- think that base was covered when a member invited new-comer to introduce self so you guys would know his level of knowledge.

Anyway, thanks for reading & allowing me to chime in.

--Bruce

[Dan/Panther]

Also, many "newbies" start with a desk set and buy a subset later.  That is what I did and paid way too much for both of them.

I paid $1000.00 for my Peking Red 302.
So I know what you mean.

D/P

[telcosteve]

Sorry to give my dime down the nickel slot (so-to-speak)  but I find this site to be the following:

1. Courteous
2. Very, very helpful
3. A great place where I think great people contribute

Yes one day probably there shall be no one left that actually worked for Ma Bell.  I did and I use BSPs.   But honestly? They sometimes really...well suck.
For a new beginner I would suggest not doing what I did when I started collecting (after the ATT Divestiture pushed me off the pole and out the door).

I always tour my phones apart (years ago) without documenting every move.  Huge mistake.  I now go as far as taking photographs of many steps that I make when I do "surgery."

So to some up my input: I find this site to be absolutely critical to keeping the wonderful phones of yesteryear alive.  There is nothing like getting an old phone to work again like it did in days gone by.  With the quality of members here, the telephone lives.   All should be commended with a job well done.  Whoever can quote me - as I think this is the best sit I have ever found.

So remember...No job is so important, or service so urgent - that we cannot take time to help our fellow phone collectors make their treasures work.  Oh my God!  A new banner mission statement.   

Thanks again CRPF all of you are tops in my book.

[telcosteve]

sit - site...

[Doug Rose]

'When I read  Doug's original post, I do as I do when I reed some books and ... I reed between the lines, and put in a lot of whats not written. When I read e.g. the Bible, I cant ask the writer, but here we may get some more responce from Doug.  "

Dag ....all I meant was we should try to encourage new collectors and spend a few minutes to give them the correct answer, not a cookie cutter one size fits all. We don't have to answer or reply to every post as the vocal minority do on the lists. Did you see the hard time the gang gave the guy who wanted to start the museum.

Am I right all the time, hardly. I am married  . With two girls in the house, I am usually wrong.

I am always asking for help outside of my comfort zone on repairing phones. David has forgotten more than I will ever know. I could not carry his tool bag (old phone guys remember this phrase).  But I do have a base to start at, I remember vividly the first time I got a manual 302 to work. I was just so darn proud of myself.

The newbies have no base and are hopeful we can help them. HOPEFUL. All situations are different. Always good to start at the beginning. With the 302. Check your service, that was the answer.

With the 202, we went around the block and back on it. There is no right or wrong, only what fit the situation. Newbie wanted his phone to work, and he never signed back on again when he was told there was an additional expense that might not have been warranted. Again....my opinion only. Phone was probably trashed. 

Phone snobs meant, lets be a little flexable. No subset, it doesn't work correctly? Fine, but it works. Most people are not looking for a daily driver, but a collectable sitting in their living room. "Look George...it works! I'll call your cell! Just like my grandfather had. How cool is this?"

Its a hobby, its supposed to be fun.....Doug