Northern Electric 151AL. What is it?

[tallguy58]

I recently picked up this phone and after investigation, it left me with more questions than answers concerning its history.

I threw this past DavePEI and he was very helpful about certain facts concerning Northern Electric company phones.

Thanks Dave

Lots of info here, guys, so please bear with me. Many photos at the end to try and tie it all up and provide you with clues.

First off, Does anyone know of or has come across a MARKED Northern Electric #2 dial?
This phone has a #2AB Western Electric and I'm confident it's been there for years as the inside wiring is stiff, "petrified" if you know what  mean.


Phone is marked with a 24 in a square.
Has a 1937 61A filter.
Dial is marked MR I 35. Also has a 49 on it. 150B dial plate dated IV 48
Has the usual Patent markings found on WE sets.
Has NE transmitter cup with a 635 Bulldog marked RD 1938 as well as 846.
Perch marked 151AL
Trans. and rec. elements dated 1942.
Cords dated I 49, and as I said, They've been there a long time.

Has anyone ever seen a factory NE phone with a WE dial before? I don't mean one cobbled together after the fact. When did Northern Electric start putting dials on phones and did they need to use WE parts at the beginning? I have a #4 NE dial dated 1939 so I know they made them. Why would a serviceman not swap a #4 or #5 for this #2 in 1949 when the cords were replaced and presumably when this phone was converted to anti-sidetone?

Any idea what all the markings mean??

Thanks for any help. Photos will be in two posts.


Bill

[tallguy58]

More pics

[tallguy58]

Last one

[Sargeguy]

Interesting,  A couple of things that stand out.

1.  The perch is a two piece solid perch.  50-AL and 53-ALs had the drawn perch, so this phone must have started life as a manual set before a dial/new base was added.  It looks like they really made an effort to obliterate the previous mark(s) before stamping it 151-AL.

2.  The cup is a two-piece cup, which again was most likely on a manual set.

The 24 must be some sort of refurbishers mark.  It is similar to the types usually found in green.  I have never  encountered a Northern Electric #4 much less a #2.  Both of the NE #4s I have seen were not #2 conversions, if I remember correctly.

[tallguy58]

You're right Greg. The two NE #4 dials I have do not have plugged holes.

[AE_Collector]

Probably a conversion to dial just after the war when anything and everything that could be put back into service...was.

Terry

[G-Man]

Probably a conversion to dial just after the war we nanything and everything that could be put back into service...was.
Terry

As Terry said, any and everything was fair game both during and immediately after the War.
I wouldn't be too surprised finding a Western Electric dial or other any other components installed by NECo at their factory or distributing houses.

After all, if production was lagging it would make sense to quickly import parts from the Mother Company in order to meet quotas and keep their customers happy.

During this period Western Electric was a stockholder in NECo as was its parent company AT&T.
Also, Northern Electric was the exclusive distributor of Western Electric products in the Dominion of Canada and its territories. 

[poplar1]

Interesting,  A couple of things that stand out.

1.  The perch is a two piece solid perch.  50-AL and 53-ALs had the drawn perch, so this phone must have started life as a manual set before a dial/new base was added.  It looks like they really made an effort to obliterate the previous mark(s) before stamping it 151-AL.

2.  The cup is a two-piece cup, which again was most likely on a manual set.

The 24 must be some sort of refurbishers mark.  It is similar to the types usually found in green.  I have never  encountered a Northern Electric #4 much less a #2.  Both of the NE #4s I have seen were not #2 conversions, if I remember correctly.

Are you certain about the solid perch meaning it was formerly a 20B/20S etc? Solid perches were made much later in Canada. Looks to me like it started as a NE 51AL and not a 20x.

[poplar1]

When did Northern Electric start putting dials on phones and did they need to use WE parts at the beginning?

Toronto got its first dials in 1924 on the GRover central office. I don't know which company made the phones or the dials for that cutover. At some point, NE did make their own N-series dials, which resemble the AE "Mercedes" dials. The WE 4H was introduced in 1930, so the NE N-series dials would have been manufactured until at least 1930, if not later. 

[tallguy58]

There is no doubt that this was a 51AL. I just looked at the markings with a loupe and you can clearly see the original marking and the added 1 which is stamped deeper than the rest.

[tallguy58]

Oh, yea, this phone originated in Halifax. At least that's where my dealer got it.

[rdelius]

Northern dial bases are uasually rather domed looking and the bottom cover has a different hole pattern than WE. That looks like a WE base

[poplar1]

The N-50AL does have a domed base and different baseplate. But didn't NE also make 51ALs with the WE-style flat base as shown?

[Jack Ryan]

Guys,
This looks like a WE phone with an NE transmitter cup to me. NE did not make a 51-AL, 151-AL or a #2 dial.

The NE 50-AL contained a terminal strip in the base so there was no need to upgrade. The WE 50-AL had no terminals in the base and connections were made within the shaft. This was the reason for WEs upgrade to the 51-AL.

The AST version of the NE 50-AL became the 150-AL; there was no NE 151-AL.

The first WE style dial that NE made was the #4 dial but it was slightly different from the WE dial; in particular, the switch pile was different (improved). NE did not have any "converted" #4 dials because there were no NE #2 dials to convert. Prior to the #4 dial, NE made 'N' type dials which were derived from AE dials. NE had a license agreement with AE to produce auto equipment.

The NE 50-AL and NE 150-AL have a different base profile from their WE equivalents. The higher base allowed fitment of the 'N' type dials which mounted flush and therefore protruded into the base. WE dials surface mount so they don't protrude (except for the spring pile) into the base.

The NE perch differed from the WE equivalent and looked more like the older WE solid perches. The NE transmitter lug and cup were separate pieces whereas WE made a single piece (cup and lug).

Given the perch style on this particular phone, it has been factory refurbished a few times. It may have started life as a 20B or 20S.

There is evidence that NE distributed WE style 50/51-AL telephones. NE had distribution rights for WE equipment so it is my feeling that any WE style telephones that were distributed by NE were bought from WE and not manufactured locally.

By the way, NE tended not to mark its transmitters using a plaque riveted to the bottom front as WE did. An unmarked transmitter is not necessarily a repro or generic replacement.

Jack

[poplar1]

Welcome, Jack, and thanks for filling in the blanks for us.

There may have been a law in Canada that required the use of Canadian transmitters and receivers. This was in addition to the high tariffs on many manufactured goods; high tariffs encouraged foreign companies to manufacture in Canada rather than export finished goods to Canada.