Statuary Bronze 302???

[unbeldi]

The phone is clearly a rare find, and worthy to be collected, that is not in question. It does appear to be a Bell System result, despite that it came from an auto shop, which could certainly create many color impressions.  The mark 304C-7 makes it authentic, IMHO.

Without comparing to a pristine -7 phone, never used or placed in sun light, we won't know the looks of the original finish. Even in the dark, these finishes could deteriorate simply by oxidation within the paint.

My interest is in finding what happened and was practiced during those years preceding the color explosion of the 1950s, when we have explicit documentation that the primary factories did not produce color sets.  BLR states that plastic color set production had resumed by 1/49, and that Statuary Bronze, etc. would resume in short order.

I think the true intent of the -7 color, Statuary Bronze, is exactly what you see in a museum where sculptures are preserved cleanly and in a non-corrosive atmosphere. Some bronze statues are simply brown with a metallic sheen.  It is NOT the color of pure bronze. The color of a pure bronze surface can vary too, based on exact composition, anywhere from copper red to golden.

I think the result of your cleaning was that the phone now shows the black plastic and the primer color, green. The -7 finish is gone.

Paint does protect surfaces, so I wouldn't be too distracted by the nice surface condition that you found, especially since you polished it. Painted surfaces, even an originally flat color finish, can easily polish to a very high gloss.  This set may not have seen heavy usages, perhaps got stored away somewhere, and escaped the refurbishing process.  Nice find.

But nevertheless, it's a puzzle to the collector.  It should have been a metal housing.

Hey Karl...All I know is the brown on this phone wiped off with a wet cloth. I thought there would be brown in this phone as well when I purchased it. The name Statuary Bronze never made sense to me when I saw pictures in The Doonor books of it, color was not bronze. That being said, this paint stood up to a rigorous cleaning with Brasso and truly shines. I cannot capture in the pictures, how this really looks. The green looks like it is green thermoplastic and the black blends in well. None of the green or black moved when I was cleaning.

As you noted earlier "I doubt there is much that can be done to reverse the process on a phone." I guess I have to disagree with that statement. I am positively thrilled with its outcome, even though I did expect something different. With the 5J, brown bakelite handset and clear plungers this is consistant with WE 302 color sets of the 50's as well is their painted sets.

The brown on the set fooled me in the pictures, but it just wiped off so I have to conclude it was the sh*t that was all over this phone. There were spots of sticky sh*t that I didn't think were coming off after along time at it. The pictures show it was a mess. I took a huge gamble on this considering the down side, that  I could part it out and not get all my money back. The upside is this is a phone I don't think too many collectors have seen. I like the upside!

What truly bothers me about this phone is the wonderful condition underneath the layers of dirt. No chips in the cradle, only a few small marks on the front right where the side meets the front. Handset looks like it chipped from being transported all these years with it in the cradle. Painted handsets are the first to go on the handle and with caps. NO bad areas. Dial is pristine as well, finger wheel is perfect and they are not an easy find for a replacement like the #6 fingerwheels.

Just my humble opinions. Without prejudice, I do respect your thoughts on this. We might never know the true answer. I can tell you this, its not going anywhere. This is right up there with my blood red 302, maybe even jumped ahead......Doug

[unbeldi]

I think the result of your cleaning was that the phone now shows the black plastic and the primer color, green. The -7 finish is gone.

In my opinion these special colors, like Statuary Bronze needed a properly matched primer as a first coat, given the state of painting technology and material of the 1940s. High-tech paints like we know now based on sophisticated polymer compositions came later.

The housing is black plastic. Painting plastic was probably not easy at the time, subject to pealing and chipping.  That's why they used the special brown Bakelite for the painted handsets.  By the mid-50s paint technology had improved so they could paint the black (shiny) Bakelite handsets, and we see them in use on the Continental and Imperial 202s.

So, in the 1940 they needed to paint housings with a primer first for these special finishes. The black plastic probably effected the finish too much as the metallic sheen is from light penetrating into the paint and reflecting from metallic particles. Black would shine through.  Green would be a suitable primer color for Statuary Brown/Bronze, as brown is a composition of green and red light.

What is the remarkable fact of this find is that the body of the phone was plastic. It seems almost inconceivable that a WE distributing/refurbishing center would not have a metal housing to reuse for the order.   All the metallic hues were produced only on special customer orders, these were not standard factory runs it appears, but perhaps only in small batches.  Another question is where were they produced?

[Mr. Bones]

Doug,

     I am absolutely delighted for you that the phone cleaned up so beautifully! I'm certain that "WOW!" does not do it justice...

     As a collector, and archivist, I am certainly most curious about its origin, which we may never discover.  My personal opinion is that any collector would proudly display this phone in a place of prominence in their collection, and have well-deserved bragging rights.

     Enjoy your new beauty, and fine job on the restoration! Thanks for sharing!

Best regards!

[poplar1]

"The four metallic colors, statuary bronze, dark gold, oxidized silver, and old brass will be produced by finishes applied in Western Electric's distributing house shops."--according to the January, 1949 BLR article  you furnished earlier:

Reply #7 in http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9684.msg116048#msg116048

What is the remarkable fact of this find is that the body of the phone was plastic. It seems almost inconceivable that a WE distributing/refurbishing center would not have a metal housing to reuse for the order.   All the metallic hues were produced only on special customer orders, these were not standard factory runs it appears, but perhaps only in small batches.  Another question is where were they produced?

[unbeldi]

Ah, yes. thanks for pointing that out.  Helps to actually read ones own postings.
So this confirms that these were never factory produced.  And I believe that's why they carry type stamps on the bottom.

"The four metallic colors, statuary bronze, dark gold, oxidized silver, and old brass will be produced by finishes applied in Western Electric's distributing house shops."--according to the January, 1949 BLR article  you furnished earlier:

Reply #7 in http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=9684.msg116048#msg116048

What is the remarkable fact of this find is that the body of the phone was plastic. It seems almost inconceivable that a WE distributing/refurbishing center would not have a metal housing to reuse for the order.   All the metallic hues were produced only on special customer orders, these were not standard factory runs it appears, but perhaps only in small batches.  Another question is where were they produced?

[poplar1]

The  WE "distributing houses" warehoused the new material for Bell orders, and had "shops" where the phone company-owned used sets were remanufactured, parted out, or scrapped.

However, Western Electric also sold to independents through Graybar. Color 302s, including statuary bronze, are shown in the 1939 Catalog #10. These would have been produced in the WE factory, not in the  distributing houses.

So, the BLR article may refer only to Bell sets, and only to the post-war period.

Except for the present anomaly---Doug's plastic "metallic" finish set--is it possible that the metallic colors were no longer available on new sets after 1942, but were available only on remanufactured sets, and on new sets still in stock at the factory (but manufactured before 8/42)?

Although no color phones are shown in the 1950 Catalog #11, this doesn't mean there were no color phones being made; the catalog contains only a small sample of what Graybar actually stocked. However, the lack of any color references there doesn't help us know whether any new statuary bronze 302s were made after August, 1942.

[unbeldi]

The  WE "distributing houses" warehoused the new material for Bell orders, and had "shops" where the phone company-owned used sets were remanufactured, parted out, or scrapped.

However, Western Electric also sold to independents through Graybar. Color 302s, including statuary bronze, are shown in the 1939 Catalog #10. These would have been produced in the WE factory, not in the  distributing houses.

So, the BLR article may refer only to Bell sets, and only to the post-war period.

Seems reasonable, yes.

Except for the present anomaly---Doug's plastic "metallic" finish set--is it possible that the metallic colors were no longer available on new sets after 1942, but were available only on remanufactured sets, and on new sets still in stock at the factory (but manufactured before 8/42)?

Although no color phones are shown in the 1950 Catalog #11, this doesn't mean there were no color phones being made; the catalog contains only a small sample of what Graybar actually stocked. However, the lack of any color references there doesn't help us know whether any new statuary bronze 302s were made after August, 1942.

Seems possible indeed.   The 1950 catalog also doesn't show any of the 500-series sets, so it seems the catalog department was a little behind schedule.  I don't know which month it was published though, perhaps it was very early in 1950, when essentially no 500 sets were even available enough to warrant third-party orders through a catalog.  Same might just apply to the colored sets. As we know it is very rare to find a plastic color 302/304 dated before 1950.  I've had at least a dozen colored plastic sets, all 1950-1954.  Only one ivory housing, broken, is dated 12/1948.

[unbeldi]

Hey Karl...All I know is the brown on this phone wiped off with a wet cloth. I thought there would be brown in this phone as well when I purchased it. The name Statuary Bronze never made sense to me when I saw pictures in The Doonor books of it, color was not bronze.

Trying to look it up, I could not find Statuary Bronze in that book. I have a (c) 1993 edition.

That being said, this paint stood up to a rigorous cleaning with Brasso and truly shines. I cannot capture in the pictures, how this really looks. The green looks like it is green thermoplastic and the black blends in well. None of the green or black moved when I was cleaning.

Well, I am certain you indeed removed the finishing paint. What is left is the plastic color and the primer. Paint usually can be polished to a high gloss, and that applies to the underlying plastic, so luster does not imply it's the correct color.

[Doug Rose]

Karl....are you saying I wiped of the finishing Brown coat with a wet towel gently removing  the dirt, but I could not budge the green and black with brasso rubbing over and over again ....really hard? Is that what you are saying? I mean a damp towel just taking the layer of dirt off, moving very very slow. When I did this, I saw just green and black with the sticky sh*t everywhere left.  No brown residue, except for the dirt  that washed right off the towel. Yes...dirt is brown. Really? I caused the destruction of this beauty. I am at a loss for words. I am not sure how I possibly could have saved this.  ...Doug

[unbeldi]

Karl....are you saying I wiped of the finishing Brown coat with a wet towel gently removing  the dirt, but I could not budge the green and black with brasso rubbing over and over again ....really hard? Is that what you are saying? I mean a damp towel just taking the layer of dirt off, moving very very slow. When I did this, I saw just green and black with the sticky sh*t everywhere left.  No brown residue, except for the dirt  that washed right off the towel. Yes...dirt is brown. Really? I caused the destruction of this beauty. I am at a loss for words. I am not sure how I possibly could have saved this.  ...Doug

It's the only explanation I can think of. The paint was fragile. I didn't think it could be reversed, because that paint breaks down internally, not just on the surface. I think this is a great reason why these metallic tones haven't been observed more often.  Most probably got stripped and repainted otherwise.

There was another one on eBay this year: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321333104562
It too looked green, it has clearly the same original finish as yours and someone did some polishing too, but we'll never know. Only that one has been refurbished, so it looks, with a no. 6 dial, new cords.
Should WE Statuary Bronze be so different from the standard definition, and be a green metallic color?

From your picture it shows that the green layer was thin and is rubbed off on the larger surfaces. Or is it possible to expose more green under those areas? Could certainly be so.  Around the mouse hole in the back, for example, it's still there, as a result of the elevation of the little ridge around the cord exit. I see this same pattern all the time when sanding or polishing. The quarter inch recess around the phone at top of the vertical sides of the phone is still green too, because your cloth didn't rub there as strongly.

Perhaps the green is just copper carbonate imbedded in the paint, and not a primer.  It would be good to find a place with a microscope and take a look at the surface.  Perhaps your doctors office?  Paint layering should be easily visible.

The original state of your phone had a fairly even coat of dark (something) on it.  How could it be all just dirt, dirt is always patchy, from my observations.  I think your set is more original that the one I quoted from eBay, despite having a plastic housing.

I think it would not be wrong or unauthentic, to repaint the set. Sometimes that's the only way to restore original appearance, one can be a purist to only a certain extent.  Statuary Bronze is available today still. And today's paint is very durable. We just don't know the exact tint WeCo envisioned. A visit to a specialty paint store, might be useful to talk to a specialist. Older home decorators probably know a lot too about what is available. They match new items with antiques all the time.

[Mr. Bones]

     Just a thought, but seeing two disparate phones that have virtually the same appearance makes me wonder if this isn't actually pretty close to the original finish, as (insert chosen deity) and WE intended?

      Does anybody have pics of, or links to pics of a pristine Statuary Bronze 302 example, maybe some of the 'deep pockets' collectors, or phone museums?

     My curiosity is certainly piqued; trying to learn here... Need more input, like Johnny Five!

Best regards!

[unbeldi]

     Just a thought, but seeing two disparate phones that have virtually the same appearance makes me wonder if this isn't actually pretty close to the original finish, as (insert chosen deity) and WE intended?

      Does anybody have pics of, or links to pics of a pristine Statuary Bronze 302 example, maybe some of the 'deep pockets' collectors, or phone museums?

     My curiosity is certainly piqued; trying to learn here... Need more input, like Johnny Five!

Best regards!

Here is a Statuary Bronze B1 owned by Dennis Markham, which I had bookmarked from this forum at one time:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=1986.msg26669#msg26669
Shows similar patterns, but also shows an actual brown finish, along with the green.  We don't know what it originally looked like either, clearly it's highly polished. Someone needs to look at these finishes under a microscope.

[poplar1]

Following the links in that topic,  there is a statuary bronze 302:

http://picasaweb.google.com/110781021825057630181/WesternElectricPaintedTelephoneSets#5423851865660667410

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EDIT: photos added for convenience and posterity

[Mr. Bones]

Thanks for the links,

     You have given me much to ponder. Some excellent shots of early colour sets, to be sure.

Best regards!

[Doug Rose]

In all honesty....I expected the 302 to look like Dennis' B1 with the Brown. That is the first thing I mentioned after cleaning it. Where's the brown? I can't imagine that I took off brown paint with a light wipe with a damp cloth. My guess is WE made different color combos. The condition of mine is better than I could ever have expected. I am not unhappy in the least! Quite the opposite. Seeing a picture of another exactly like mine reaffirms my guess, but then again I wasn't there, so it is only a guess....Doug