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WE A1 on eBay Second time around

Started by Doug Rose, March 19, 2015, 06:04:27 PM

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Doug Rose

I didn't mention it the first time as I thought I might spoil someone watching it. I was really surprised it went by and  was not bid on. Real nice A1, needs new paint, real nice 2HB with correct dial plate, but the kicker is the D number is lined out and it is marked B1.  :o Yes....B1. This is really different, I have never seen this before....maybe you have......Doug


http://www.ebay.com/itm/331500118568

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EDIT: This is the re-list link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Western-Electric-model-A1-Desk-Set-/331508596872
Kidphone

WEBellSystemChristian

#1
I have always wanted an A1, but not for the money they command!

It's interesting how, like you said Doug, the D- marking was stamped out and replaced with 'B1'. Then again, it's probably pretty easy to convert an A1 internally to a B1. Whoever gets this can't call this a D-76869 (A1), they have to call it a B1!  ;D
Christian Petterson

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right" -Henry Ford

poplar1

#2
I don't see anything that the WE repair shop  changed inside, other than perhaps the removal of the capacitor. (Someone else moved the black handset wire from BK on the dial to BB.)

The original D-80370 or E1A handsets did not have a 129A capacitor, so one was installed in the mounting.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#3
I would think they changed the whole dial.

The 2H dial was intended only for B-type handset mountings.
The 1929 catalog does not even show the 132B number plate, it has only 2HA and 2HE dials mentioned explicitly, but this seems admittedly odd. It does show the diagram of 2AA and 2AB dials.
The 1925 catalog does have a 132B plate, but no 2HB dial either, which at that time makes sense.


poplar1

Option of dial or apparatus blank--or dial type--would not be indicated by the hand set  mounting code. Some say a 2G dial would be appropriate for a D-803870 or A-type mounting, but as furnished, the 2G does not have the correct pileup.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

#5
Quote from: poplar1 on March 20, 2015, 09:54:36 AM
Option of dial or apparatus blank--or dial type--would not be indicated by the hand set  mounting code. Some say a 2G dial would be appropriate for a D-803870 or A-type mounting, but as furnished, the 2G does not have the correct pileup.

Well, where are the rules for that written?  Handset mounting types were a new feature. If someone was supposed to put a 2HB dial into an instrument, and the only information they had was that these were only supposed to be used on B mountings, then many perhaps would mark it a B1 as well.

unbeldi

But in the end, nobody knows how many people had their screwdrivers in that phone. The dial could have been added by someone else.  The screws certainly looks like someone used the wrong size of a screw driver on them.

Dan/Panther

The B-1 appears to be hand ground into the base. What conditions would require WE to cross out the D number ? It seems it could go all the way back to Murry Hill. Or is that the consensus ?

D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Doug Rose

#8
My A1 has a 2HB and when I was in he ATCA, for over 20years, the concensus was the the 2HB was the correct dial for an A1. These guys had been collecting a lot longer than I had and I valued their opinion.  Lately ...3 years and a lot of time for reading, makes an expert. So be it.

I do not think the dial was replaced, I think it is the proper dial. My opinion.

It seems lately every decent phone brought to the attention of the Forum is being criticized and systematically .....step by step taken apart as what is incorrect about it.  Very sad.

Read up!

A good phone is a good phone. 

Its a hobby....its supposed to be fun......Doug
Kidphone

unbeldi

#9
A 2HB dial on an A1 is as correct as a 5H on a D1.  A 6A would almost as correct.
Yes, the late-20s practices show A1 and B1 sets with H dials.
But that doesn't mean the set is original.
The 2H dial was introduced with the B-type mounting.
This has nothing to do with valuing opinion.
Many old opinions also called an A1 an AA1.
Read up!

Doug Rose

Karl...you are mixing apples and oranges as my Dad used to say. I respected his opinion, no mater how wrong I though he was.  Yes a 5H or a 6A is correct on a D1, D1s were around a long time. E1s were replaced with F1s and dials were replaced and/or added on manual sets.

A1s (yes some mistakenly called them an AA1) were around a very short time and came with a 2HB. If you have one with a 6A, I would love to see it.

The old timers in the ATCA never heard of the internet, doesn't mean that their knowledge was not correct. Valuing their opinion was probably the incorrect way to phrase it. I respected their opinion. They taught me a lot.

David said A1s came with a 2G, never heard of a 2G but I respect his opinion. You can teach an old doug new tricks  ;D!! David has forgotten more than I ever have known about vintage telephones. That is a compliment.

Your knowledge is vast and I do not mean to challenge it. All the same, I will keep my 2HB on my AA1  8)  as found.....Doug
Kidphone

poplar1

It was Larry Wolff, not I, who stated that 2Gs were used with A1 handset mountings.  I said that unless the 2G is modified someway, the 2G contact spring pileup is inadequate for use with a handset.

The A1 patent was issued in 1924 per G. K. Thompson's 1922 application. That 1924 patent date is shown on the rim of B1s and early D1s. If the B1 was first manufactured in 1928, along with 2H-type dials the same year,  then what type dial are you suggesting was used on A1s, Karl, in 1927?

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

I have no suggestion actually what was originally installed in this telephone.

I cited what a couple of sources state about 2H dials.

I did suggest that the 2H dial was installed when it was re-stamped to B1, if the dial was in fact always on that phone. Perhaps it was stamped B1, because the A-type handset mountings were already obsolete when this phone was refurbished. Who knows. We have seen other weird stampings. That it is a refurbishment is hopefully undisputed, so it cannot be known what the original dial was, if any. Perhaps, or probably, it had none.

It is a favorite sport of collectors to install No. 2 dials on anything early, there is even a small industry to provide parts to revert converted 4H dials. So indeed, one MUST scrutinize every phone presented for high value. That doesn't mean the phone becomes worthless if not totally original.

B-type mountings were already established in 1927, not 1928.

Here is some more history:

The D-76869 type mountings were apparently used to test the A, B, C, and D handset development versions, which started ca. 1922, the year Thomson also applied for the desk set patent (US1508425, issued 1924). The first formal test was conducted in NYC in 9/24 with ca. 500 employees of AT&T with the A-handset.

In June 1926, Specification 4566 does not mention handset mountings or H-type dials. The first production version of the new handset was the E1A handset, available for distribution in early 1927 (BTL, The Early Years). Therefore, it is unlikely that any A1s were installed in the field before Spring 1927. Sometime in 1927 WECo also introduced the B-type instruments. By December, the Specs document A1, A2, and A3 handset mountings, as well as B1, B2, and B3 versions. The A and B mounting types are treated as interchangeable in Spec 4810 of December 1927. A1 is always mentioned along-side B1, and so on.

Just when the "A" designation was created is unclear. No source is detailed enough to break this down to months and we know that piece parts were not date-stamped until early 1929.
By inference, the 2H dial was introduced in 1927 as well.  A2 and B2 mountings (2P-MR) were never shipped without a dial, and the correct dial on both was a 2H. Circuits in #4810 do show 2H dials in A1 or B1 circuits, so the 2H dial is a correct dial on an A1.

A G-type dial appears as only one possibility, previously, along-side 2D and 2E dials, but all off these,  I think, were only used on switchboards.  The excerpt of the table below shows the known options with their switching diagrams.  The 2G dial came only with a B plate, while the 2E dial had A,B,C,D,E, and G plate, so this one emerges as a more likely candidate than the 2GB.

Thomson's patent does not specify what kind of dial is sitting on the base that is shown in his patent. Has anyone ever found a D-number dial for the period? I would be surprised if there weren't any.

Below is a chart with substitution history.

Doug Rose

Just for reference, my A1 is fully functional with the 2HB dial. If it wasn't a 2HB, what #2 dial could it have been? Certainly not the elusive #1 ..Doug
Kidphone

unbeldi

#14
Quote from: Doug Rose on March 22, 2015, 03:25:35 PM
Just for reference, my A1 is fully functional with the 2HB dial. If it wasn't a 2HB, what #2 dial could it have been? Certainly not the elusive #1 ..Doug

Doug, there is nothing "wrong" with that. Of course it is fully functional, it is the dial to be used with handset telephones on CB circuits.

The No. 1A dial is unsuitable and was obsolete in 1920, but a 2A dial may be used for CBS-LBT circuits.

However, was a 2H dial ever original on an A1?  A1 mountings were most likely used as manual stations.

Specification 4810 states for A1 and A3 handset mountings explicitly:
    "Use of this mounting should be restricted to non-dial stations where practicable."

The instrument illustrations show the A1 with a dial blank, and the B1 with a dial.  The wiring diagrams always lump A1 and B1 together, as with A2/B2 and A3/B3.