News:

"The phone is a remarkably complex, simple device,
and very rarely ever needs repairs, once you fix them." - Dan/Panther

Main Menu

AE 50 Restoration Help Needed: Dial Servicing, Noise, Correct Parts, Ringer Vent Screen

Started by KaiserFrazer67, February 28, 2017, 05:45:37 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

KaiserFrazer67

Hi all,

I've acquired a nice black Automatic Electric Model 50 recently which needs new screen material for covering the inside of the ringer vents (or grilles, whatever they're called).  Below is a photo of the old ones which were on the sides.  I think one used to cover the bottom vent as well; it wasn't present in the phone, but there was adhesive residue around the slots as evidence that there probably was a screen over it, too.

Color: Hard to tell if it was originally reddish-brown which discolored to black, or black which discolored to reddish-brown--I'm guessing the latter, since most of the brown color appears in a pattern where the mesh was exposed through the vents. The coloring didn't change when I hand-washed them with mild soap and water.  I was originally going to replace them in the phone and try to position them so that the tears in them were hidden behind the vent bars, but I think it would be better to just put new stuff in it.

Which raises the questions: 

1) What exactly is this stuff?  It looks to be some kind of early nylon mesh rather than actual cloth.  It has a stiff, man-made feel to it.  The phone is evidently a 1952 or later Model 50; it has a 51A dial (which the last patent on the decal below pretty much confirms as original, which I describe in the next paragraph), but still has cloth-covered wiring bound with that black wax-covered twine (except for two plastic-coated wires which are obvious later replacements).  I know nylon was a product of WW2, so that is a possibility.

2) What can I use for a replacement?  Or, does one of the vintage phone restoration folks out there sell replacement screen that would work for it?

3) What do I use for an adhesive?  From my own experience with bakelite clocks and radios, bakelite isn't the easiest thing in the world to glue stuff to (not to mention glue back together!).  Thankfully, none of the bakelite parts on this phone are damaged.

I have also included a pic of the remarkably intact original decal on the top of the case. A patent search for #2,581,648 shows it was applied for on October 1, 1949 and issued on January 8, 1952 for the silent pawl and ratchet in the dial (which confirms to me that the 51A dial it came with is correct).  From the little bit of reading I've done so far on this forum, it's my understanding that AE's from before the Model 80/90 Northlake era are otherwise VERY difficult to date, and the patent numbers are pretty much the only clues there are.  There was some kind of code stamped on the back of the phone in that orange (vermilion?) paint at one time, but so much of it has worn off that it is now completely illegible. (This was an eBay purchase; the seller said he did "clean it up somewhat" and it's my suspicion that he may be the reason the code is no longer legible.  Thankfully he evidently had enough sense to leave the decal alone!)

The phone does ring, dial out, receive and transmit, although I'm having some trouble with background hiss/crackle (I will elaborate in another post under the correct tech board).  Not to mention that God-awful hookswitch *POP* which is evidently almost unavoidable in the AE 40/50 phones... :P

An interesting side note:  The dial card had a Wahoo, Nebraska number (area code 402, exchange 443).  Seller was from Fremont, Nebraska, roughly 20-25 miles away (both towns are about that same distance west and northwest of Omaha, respectively).

Thanks much folks.  I appreciate any help I can get.

-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin
-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin --  My CO CLLI & switch: OKFDWIXADS0--GTD-5 EAX

"Problems are merely opportunities in workclothes." -Henry J. Kaiser

unbeldi

Finding a patent decal at all on a Type 50 set is somewhat rare actually, most didn't have any.  Or at least not anymore.

The No. 51A dial didn't appear until 1954, actually. It is recognized by the bi-furcated twin-contact springs.
Can you show a picture of the dial ?

If the screen material is good enough to be washed without destruction, I would reuse it ! Many glues should work, because the only load on the bond is this material. It just has to adhere.  If you don't like the discoloration, perhaps you can dye it back to black with a felt tip marker, or similar ink.

I have also liked getting phones from Nebraska, much of it was independent territory, except notably the Omaha area, and my finds further west have been barn-fresh without collectors' mutilations.

Audio crackling is usually due to failing cords, but you may want to try cleaning all contacts. The transmitter may be bad too, have you tried replacing it?  Might as well keep all posts about this phone here in one place, so people can see the history better.

jsowers

If you have a fabric store nearby, like Joann Fabrics, take one of those pieces as a sample and let them match it up. The black part would be the color you'd want to match. Or if you can find some old black nylon stockings, that might work. Cut with pinking shears so it doesn't ravel, like what was done to the original fabric. It just needs to be black and sheer so the ringer sound won't be muffled. You could also try to dye the original pieces back to black.

As for the glue, I always have good results with GC Service Cement. It comes in a glass bottle with a brush attached to the top, so you can brush it onto the area and then affix the fabric. I get it at my local electronics parts retailer, but it can be had online too.
Jonathan

Jim Stettler

Years ago (15-20) I was looking for this style of screen material. I call it insect screen. There is similar screen on the AE 40 and some of the early SC sets. I found some screen that was so close that I quit looking.  The min. Amount was 1 running yard. The fabric was 2 yards wide, so I have some spare screen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it is stored  somewhere in the phone room with spare telephone stuff.  With luck it should turn up within a month or so.
You can have some when I find it.


Jim S.

PM your address and I will send some when it turns up again.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Phonesrfun

I was able to find something rather close to it from JoAnn Fabric several years ago.  I will look and see if I can find some in my stuff.


-Bill
-Bill G

KaiserFrazer67

Well, thanks, all of you! Here are more photos of my AE 50 (evidently I can only post 6 more):

1 & 2:  Interior of the phone showing wiring as best as I can.  I installed the modular test cord since the phone did not come with a cord.  You can see that some wiring has been replaced at some point.  Another reason to have good screen--it helps to hide the wiring!  If anyone notices anything else that seems odd or out of place, please feel free to let me know.  I don't know much about these things yet, and I'd like to learn all I can.

3, 4 & 5:  The back of the AE 51A dial it came with and how it was hooked up (plus the extra contact for...?).  The last photo shows the double-forked (bifurcated) contacts.  (YAY! I learned a new word this week!  8) )  There is a collar with ten notches atop the fiber wheel shown on the back of the 51A dial; also the digits 1, 5 and 0 stamped by their corresponding notches.  There is a nub on the fiber wheel where the "6" notch is; this trips a trigger and spring contact (shown in the 4th photo) whenever any number larger than 3 is dialed.  There was a wire hooked up to the terminal for this contact.  I have NO idea what it does or why it would be needed. (EDIT:  It's hooked up to the ground terminal, as was one of the ringer wires before I moved it to L2 (6th terminal) to make the ringer work.  Any thoughts on what this extra terminal and mechanism on the dial was for?  Party line, perhaps?  The ringer works perfectly, so it must be a straight-line (single-line?) ringer.)

I had planned to retrofit this phone with a beautiful 24A36 dial with bright brass trim I got from Mark Treutelaar at OldPhoneShop.com--until I noticed it has one less connection than the 51A.  Hopefully, noting my edits as I continue to find things out about this phone, I can still do this?  I love the brass look, but it looks to me like I won't be able to switch the finger stop between the 51A and the 24A36 (there are gears and stuff pinned to it), so hopefully I can make it work as is.  My intent is to put the 24A36 dial in the AE 50, and then move the 51A dial (once it's cleaned and lubricated) into the Leich 901 I got from Oldphoneworks.  It currently has a Kellogg 15G clone in it, which works fine, but--oddly enough--it appears to be a clone of the 24A36, right down to the soft-ratcheting windup and the same number of contacts!!  I would think that since Leich was owned and operated by AE and the phones were used by General Telephone/GTE even into the 1970's, an actual AE-made dial would be more correct for it anyway.  The 51A dial does work and dial out successfully, but it seems very slow compared to the AE 80/90 dials I just had Mark refurbish and the 24A36 dial I just got from him, so I'm going to have Mark adjust and lube this one up, too.  I really hope I can make the dial switches I want to; otherwise I'll have to settle for chroming it out rather than brassing it out.  It's going in my foyer by a wooden staircase, so I want it to look as if it belongs there.  I will post pics when it is finished.  Brass would look a lot nicer than chrome next to a 100+ year-old oak and hardwood staircase...  :(

EDIT:  I checked out which wire was hooked up to this extra terminal--it goes to terminal #5, the ground (G) terminal which isn't used anyway (the yellow line wire isn't used in my POTS system), so it probably won't matter if nothing's hooked up to it.

6:  The handset, showing the elements and cord that was on it as I received it.   I want to switch the cord out for a black NOS AE Extensicord (and the handset caps for brass-trimmed ones) from OldPhoneWorks (Matt Jennings).  The current handset cord just looks too flat and modern to be the original, but--if this is a later Model 50, toward the end of production, who knows?  Is it possible that there was some overlap between the Model 40/50 production and the Model 80/90?  That might explain the later style cord, if it is stock.  It also only has three conductor wires (my 80/90 cords have four); there does not appear to be evidence of a cut-off black wire. The wires all terminate at the transmitter connections inside the handset, since the receiver conductors are evidently molded into the handset itself.  I was a bit surprised to see that when I opened it up; the Leich 901 handset is made the same way, but the F1 handset on my WE 302 is hollow with wires running through like the G1 handset on my WE 554 and my AE 80/90 units.  So the handset cord must have been made for this application.  In any event, I think the Extensicord and the brass dial and handset trim will lend a much better "vintage" look to it (if I can get the dial to work).

Now the noise problem:  Testing this with my cellphone, the AE 50 can dial out, receive calls, ring (after moving one connection from ground to L2), receive sound, and transmit.  While listening to my cell's voicemail message, I can hear a noticeable hiss/crackle/buzz that actually varies in pitch.  It is not horribly loud, and I can still hear the message well enough, but it's bad enough to make regular conversation unpleasant.  I cleaned up all the connections in the handset--all contacts on the receiver and transmitter units and their contacts inside the handset, and cleaned the terminals and the spade connectors on the wires.  No change in the problem.  I have checked all the terminal connections in the phone itself; wiggled the handset cord, the test line and the plug while listening, and tried different jacks--all with no change to the noise.  None of my other phones do this, so it is something with the phone itself.  Unbeldi, you mentioned the transmitter could be bad; I did notice that my AE 80/90 transmitters will interchange physically with this phone, so I tested the 50's transmitter in one of my working Model 80's, calling the house phone with my cell.  At first, it sounded fine, until I talked/blew into it a few times; then I got the same faint crackling/buzzing noise I had before.  When I get the AE 50 together again, I'll try the 80's transmitter in the 50 and let you know what I find.

Thanks again, all of you.  Let me know what you think.  It's getting late (5:30 AM as I finish this up) and I gotta leave for work in 8 hours...  Second shift kinda sucks... I can never get right to sleep after getting home at night; I stay up late playing with old phones and wind up getting out of bed at the crack of noon!  ;D

-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin
-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin --  My CO CLLI & switch: OKFDWIXADS0--GTD-5 EAX

"Problems are merely opportunities in workclothes." -Henry J. Kaiser

unbeldi

It sounds like you are close to locating and solving the static noise problem.

The dial in this telephone is a special type. It is indeed a 51A in principle, but it has an additional feature, which is for S.A.T.T. operation.  Strowger Automatic Toll Ticketing (SATT) was AE's solution to automatic number identification (ANI) on party lines. The extra switch on the spindle of the dial pulses an identification code to the telephone exchange.

Your 24A36 dial has brass trim ?  Really?  I would think that simply indicates that someone polished the paint off.  No telephone part was ever delivered in blank brass. It's a sure giveaway for a doctored, dubious appearance. Unless protected with a clear coat, it will tarnish fairly quickly.

AE only delivered dials finished in black, chrome, or satin gold plate.

Again, brass rings on the handset would be sign of fake news. I am not sure that AE ever produced brass rings for the Type 41 handset.  The black Type 38 handset on the 34A3 and 35A5 telsets had black-painted brass rings, but the black 41 handset had specially molded caps that only gave the appearance of bands.

Indeed the Kellogg type 15 dial was a licensed clone of the AE dial. It is conceivable to end up in a 900-type set, I suppose, as most 900's were bought with a magneto generator, but I wouldn't put it into an AE set, frankly.

Are there any remaining digits of the type marking on the back of the set?  It might be a L-5107 or L-5112 if the SATT dial is original to this set.  But somehow I suspect that the SATT feature was added to the instrument later, I think the patent decal would not be a B23 issue if it were.
You can read about the SATT system in:
US Patent 2366647 1945 1941 Ostline AEL--Telephone System.
which shows up in patent labels of other SATT sets.



rdelius

There were type 41 black handsets with painted black brass rings.Might have been earlier production

AE_Collector

A very educational topic I guess! Two new words!

This weeks new word:
Quote from: KaiserFrazer67 on March 01, 2017, 06:08:57 AM
The last photo shows the double-forked (bifurcated) contacts.  (YAY! I learned a new word this week!
-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin

Last weeks new word:
Quote from: unbeldi on March 01, 2017, 08:10:17 AM
Again, brass rings on the handset would be sign of fake news.

Yes the first version of the type 41 handset still had the black painted brass bands but quickly changed to grooved bakelite and then the grooves went away. That picture of the type 41 handset I posted....maybe in the Base Code discussion was actually brass bands painted black.

The 6 picture limit is just "per post", not per topic. So post away! Pictures showing any codes stamped on the back of the 50 please but if as Unbeldi suspects, the dial was retrofitted later they may not be as interesting as we hope they are. Could have been a "less dial" phone originally as well.

I cant tell what letters all the black ink stamps on the back of the transmitter capsule are. Can you looking at them in person? There is quite a collection of them as compared to normal.

Terry


unbeldi

Notice also that the ringer in this set is a straight-line ringer.  I am not sure that a SATT station would use a straight-line ringer, I thought SATT systems used frequency ringing, not codes.
But since the SATT switch on the ringer was connected the ringer was probably installed by a telephone company.  It's not very likely that anyone else would make the effort to wire the dial that way.

Did the set have a schematic diagram inside ?
The type stamp would show up on it too.

AE_Collector

Quote from: unbeldi on March 01, 2017, 01:40:01 PM
Notice also that the ringer in this set is a straight-line ringer.  I am not sure that a SATT station would use a straight-line ringer, I thought SATT systems used frequency ringing, not codes.

Yes ...good point. SATT Dials were used to identify the parties on party lines when making toll Calls. Thus these dials should only show up in party line phones. However, SL ringers were frequently used for Two Party Lines by using grounded ringing. So it would likely come down to whether the Telco wanted to identify LD callers on two party lines or just larger party lines. I would think that they would, it was all an effort to reduce the operator time required to ticket Toll Calls.

So my guess would be that a SL ringer in a phone with a SATT dial is legitimate. Though obviously one would likely expect to encounter a high number of frequency ringers in phones that have SATT dials.

To the best of my knowledge (that means this could all be WRONG), Automatic Electric's "FW1" (FW = Four Wire) was the Toll Switch used to route LD Calls. We installed them here in the 50's. They would have been a necessity to provide DDD (Direct Distance Dialing) which was introduced to subscribers in that time period. WECo and NECo had the 4A Crossbar (I don't know if there was a #4 Crossbar that the 4A was an improvement on). Here in BC we eventually added a 4A Crossbar and both the FW1 and the 4A processed and routed LD Calls. AE developed a Digital Toll Switch called the GTD3 in the 1980's. We installed at least a couple of them that removed the old FW1's. Eventually NT DMS Toll Switches sent the 4A and the GTD 3's to the scrap bins.

SATT is Strowger Automatic Toll Ticketer which was an add on to the FW1 Toll Switch to bill the LD calls. It needed more information from Party Lines to determine who was actually making the LD Call. Without SATT the calls would be sent to ONI (Operator Number Identification IE: "Your Number Please"). If the Telco installed SATT Dials on all party line phones then SATT could ticket all LD Calls, not just the Private Line Calls. What I don't know is if ALL Party's on the line needed a SATT Dial or just Party 2 on a Two Party Line. IE, was there a default to Party 1 if no indication of the Calling Party was received from a SATT Dial in their phone. Possibly.

Again, I never worked in FW1 or with SATT. We used FW1 switches in BC but I don't believe that we used any SATT Dial on Party Lines, those LD calls just went to the operator to record the Billing info here. This is just how I picture that it worked from the little bits and pieces I have read.

Terry

KaiserFrazer67

Well, here are more pictures:

1:  The back of the phone.  Very unfortunately, the codes which were once on the back are all but completely obliterated.  Only a trace of paint remains; nothing is legible.  I tried looking at it at an angle in strong light, hoping that perhaps the missing paint left a "ghost" imprint on the bakelite, but to no avail.  The wiring schematic (which would have had that info stamped on it) was also missing, too.  :'(

2 & 3:  The 24A36 dial, front and back.  Here's a link to the item; Mark Treutelaar of the OldPhoneShop.com is from whom I bought it: 
http://www.oldphoneshop.com/products/ae-24-36-dial-in-gold-brassed-out-ae34-and-monophone-dials-ae40.html
Thoughts and comments are more than welcome.  Also let me know if any of you folks have ever dealt with him, and what your experiences have been.  So far, mine have been generally positive, although he doesn't really seem to communicate that much.  I can never get him on the phone, and his E-mail replies are usually very short and to the point.

Now I had unclipped the porcelain face from this dial after I got it to clean it up a bit--unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the inside.  The entire finger stop is also colored the same way, as are the back side of the finger wheel and dial card ring.  The slotted screws which hold the finger stop in place were pretty chewed up, which is obvious evidence that it had been removed at some point.  Is it possible that they could have been anodized in that color?  I've seen anodized aluminum in every color conceivable; is it possible to anodize brass in color, too?  There does appear to be a clear coat on the front of the pieces, but the back sides of the pieces and the rest of the finger stop are the same shade and tone of gold, and the coloring is just too "golden" to be simply clear-coated brass.  I don't know much about anodizing, but I would think it also add a layer of protection beyond what a simple clear coat over brass would do.  My intention for buying it was (and is) that it would achieve the look I am going for without spending a couple hundred $$$ on gold-plated parts to match the actual gold satin finish that was actually available.

Here are the brass-ringed handset caps that Matt Jennings is selling at Oldphoneworks:
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/automatic-electric-type-41-transmitter-cap-brass-trim.html
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/receiver-cap-for-ae-type-41-handset-brass-trim.html

Again, originality isn't really Priority #1 here.  My original handset caps are the plain black ones with no grooves.  I just think these AE 40/50 series of phones look SO much better decked out in brightwork, whether the original-issue chrome, satin gold, or the non-issue polished brass which I am getting.  That might actually be an inherent flaw in their design, IMHO.  The WE 302 still looks good in basic black, and adding chrome (which I did to mine) improves its looks to be sure, but not eye-poppingly so as is the case with the AE 40/50 phones.  The old AEs just don't look as good in solid black.  Of course, that's just my opinion, for what it's worth...

Terry and Unbeldi:  A lot of what you said about the SATT switch on the 51A dial went over my head, but I did manage to grasp the general gist of it.  (I'm still very much in the "newbie" stage, but I am learning as I go along.) The SATT switch terminal was wired to the ground terminal, as was one of the ringer leads, so it was wired for grounded ringing in what must have been a grounded POTS system.  I don't think many, if any, regular household POTS systems are still grounded with a third conductor--I know mine just uses tip and ring.  I know from when the Frontier guy replaced my service box last fall that there is an actual ground wire to the box (we traced it to the ground rod in back of the house where the electrical system itself is also grounded), but I don't know how that affects the tip and ring wires.  In any event, I discovered (with the help of a wiring diagram I found on the TCI library webpage) that moving the ringer wire from ground to L2 allowed it to ring, and it rings normally.  I don't know much about the differences between straight-line ringers and party-line ringers, or how one tells them apart just by looking at them; only that one kind won't work on the other kind's system.

As for the SATT switch, the bump on the fiber wheel trips the switch when any digit 4 or greater is dialed, but not if a 1, 2 or 3 are dialed.  As I suspected, since the SATT terminal was hooked to the unused ground terminal, and the phone had successfully dialed out (albeit rather slowly) when I first tried it, I decided the terminal was irrelevant and removed the wire completely.  I then hooked up the brass 24A36 dial to the remaining wires and installed it in the phone.  It works perfectly!  The last photo shows how it looks (so far).

We never had exchange names for phone numbers in Oakfield; I think that was mostly for bigger cities like nearby Fond du Lac (which had WAlnut-1, 2 & 3 back in the day).  Indeed, it's my understanding that Oakfield didn't even have dial service until the mid-1960's!  Even then, I can remember when I was a little kid back in the early '70's, our friends two blocks away still had a party line while we had a private line!  We had General Telephone; maybe back then one could get a private line if one paid extra for it?  I don't know.  Anyway, if we could have had an exchange name, having 583 we would've been stuck with JU, KU or LU, so I made one up which I think is appropriate for the phone.  ;D

The handset cord will be replaced with a NOS black AE Extensicord I'm getting from Matt Jennings; I'm placing a fairly large parts order with him today.  I'm still thinking the one I got it with could be original to the phone, especially if this is a fairly late production model.  Again, was there any overlap between Model 40/50 production and Model 80/90 production?  It does look like an 80/90 cord, but with only 3 conductors, as if it were made for the phone, or at least to be retrofitted into it.

Before I forget:  I'm about 95% sure my crackling troubles are indeed from the transmitter.  I went the other way after installing the dial, and put the AE 80's transmitter in the 50.  Some minor initial crackling at the very start, but it quieted down almost immediately, and repeated talking and blowing into the mouthpiece didn't seem to agitate it much.  Again, double checking other possible issues such as wiggling the wires produced no change in the results, so I'm pretty sure my connections are clean and solid.
Markings on the back of the original transmitter, stamped in reddish ink in 3 places around the dark gray part, read:
A.E. CO. 41      CC      D-38309 B
In larger letters, and in black ink, are also stamped:  "Z LN" before the "A.E.CO. 41" and "BL (or B1?) Z" after the "CC".

Thanks again for all of your help and expertise with my project!

-Tom from Oakfield-
-Tom from Oakfield, Wisconsin --  My CO CLLI & switch: OKFDWIXADS0--GTD-5 EAX

"Problems are merely opportunities in workclothes." -Henry J. Kaiser

unbeldi

It is entirely possible that Oakfield never used an exchange name. Indeed, The Exchange Name Project doesn't have an entry for the town, but that is not positive evidence.
Given the small size of Oakfield and it being so close to Fond Du Lac (5 miles?) it could perhaps been serviced directly from there.  The 1970s routing guides show it being a tributary to FDUL with a single office code 583. Today, it does have a GTD 5EAX switch, and the English Name is "Oakfield".   So, my guess is that a number card in the 1950s when your phone was made would have been

Oakfield
1234

Or something along those lines, perhaps even few digits.  Since you recall it being manual in the 1960s, the number may also have had party-line station letters suffixed to the number:  123 M

If there is a local newspaper, you might want to look at old advertisements or the classifieds.


poplar1

In 1924, Oakfield was served by the Oakfield Telo. Co.  550-650 Subscribers with Magneto Equipment. F.M. Barber was the owner or manager.

In the same year, Fond du Lac Rural Telo. Co. served Fond du Lac., with an additional ex. in North Fond du Lac. This company had a total of 550-650 subscribers with both Magneto and Common Battery Equipment. W. T. Reilly.

Ref: Telephony's Directory of the Telephone Industry, 1924.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Jim Stettler

FYI: Regarding gold plated parts. Many collectors plate their own parts with plating kits sold for gun plating. Texas platers comes to mind, but their are other kits as well. Like most finishes. Proper prep is key.
Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.