REN - Ringer Equivalency Numbers (continued: The fine point bickering discussion of REN)

[Dominic_ContempraPhones]

It's not accurate.  Long loop, short loop.  Home runs, daisy.  In theory it means your line should be able to handle 5 500s in a daisy chain.  90 VRMS at 20 Hz, but it varies.  With us it was 88+ VRMS, but I also remember 80 plus or minus 10 per cent on Norstar ATAs with a REN of 3  Your mileage will vary.

We used LN ... 100 LN ... 20 LN = 1 REN.

[Alex G. Bell]

It's not accurate.  Long loop, short loop.  Home runs, daisy.  In theory it means your line should be able to handle 5 500s in a daisy chain.  90 VRMS at 20 Hz, but it varies.  With us it was 88+ VRMS, but I also remember 80 plus or minus 10 per cent on Norstar ATAs with a REN of 3  Your mileage will vary.

We used LN ... 100 LN ... 20 LN = 1 REN.

Sorry, I have to disagree.  Whether the inside wiring is home run or daisy chained has no bearing whatever on REN because the resistance of this wiring is insignificant compared to the OSP loop resistance and impedance of the ringers.  24AWG copper has a loop resistance of 50 ohms/1000'.  Few if any residences using analog phones have a continuous 1000' foot run of IW from the entry point to the furthest phone.  Consequently how the (5) 500 sets are connected is also irrelevant.

RS-470 and other telephone set specs state that a telephone alerting device needs to respond to ringing voltages = or > 40VRMS.  I have not personally done the arithmetic to determine whether (5) 500 sets at the end of a 1200 ohm loop (typical maximum allowable outside plant loop resistance) will receive 40V but it's a safe bet that the stated REN=5 limitation takes this into account.

[Dominic_ContempraPhones]

You guys are talking nonsense.  Go do it both ways and measure.  My house is daisy chained.  It's 90v RMS sinusoidal at 20 Hz., not 40v.  Does 1A2 put out 40?  I remember them having difficulty accommodating short and long loop conditions and tripping vs. not tripping on SK-1 with neon bulbs for ring indication.

Do you want to see the engineering reports?  Panasonic is 90 and we were 88+.  We had SIX different ring generators ... decimonic, harmonic, whatever.  It depended.  Some of our stuff that rang off an electrical outlet was 1.4 REN.

[unbeldi]

It's not accurate.  Long loop, short loop.  Home runs, daisy.

What is not accurate?
What does "long loop, short loop" mean?   You have to talk in full sentences, if you want to be understood, at least place a verb somewhere.

Considering that, I can't figure out whether AGB is right or wrong to disagree.   What he states, however, is precisely correct, and he probably misunderstood your true intent.  That would not be surprising.
Are you saying in fact say that there is an electrical difference in the wiring topologies for a typical home ?  If so, I suspect some wiring fault.

Does 1A2 put out 40?

...put out 40 what?   Volts?  Hertz? mA?

My 1A2 system actually puts out 135 V (I believe RMS, because I likely used my RMS meter),  30 Hz  with  a 117A generator, without load, when the power supply straps are set to match the utility voltage (120 V) at 123V.  The specs are 110 V to 125 V out.

[Alex G. Bell]

You guys are talking nonsense.  Go do it both ways and measure.  My house is daisy chained.  It's 90v RMS sinusoidal at 20 Hz., not 40v.  Does 1A2 put out 40?  I remember them having difficulty accommodating short and long loop conditions and tripping vs. not tripping on SK-1 with neon bulbs for ring indication.

Do you want to see the engineering reports?  Panasonic is 90 and we were 88+.  We had SIX different ring generators ... decimonic, harmonic, whatever.  It depended.  Some of our stuff that rang off an electrical outlet was 1.4 REN.

I never said anything "put out" 40V.  Here is what I said:

"RS-470 and other telephone set specs state that a telephone alerting device needs to respond to ringing voltages = or > 40VRMS.  I have not personally done the arithmetic to determine whether (5) 500 sets at the end of a 1200 ohm loop (typical maximum allowable outside plant loop resistance) will receive 40V but it's a safe bet that the stated REN=5 limitation takes this into account."

By simple application of ohms law, with 90VAC applied at the CO to a 1200 ohm loop with 5 ringers at its end, there will be a substantial voltage drop in the loop and 90VAC will not be applied to the ringers at its end.  A lower voltage will be present due to the voltage drop in the loop. 

Bellcore, TIA, etc. have reached the conclusion that the worst case (lowest voltage) for which ringers are required to operate is 40V at the ringer, hence as I stated, RS-470 states that ringers should respond to ringing voltages => 40VAC.

[Dominic_ContempraPhones]

It is very obvious you both are not telecom professionals, and never worked for an ILEC or Lucent or Nortel, etc.  Don't pretend to be what you're not.

If you don't know what long loop vs. short means in the industry and how that affects "REN", then you couldn't even get a job as an installer in the golden age of telephony.  If you know don't most homes have jacks that are wired in series to minimize cable that speaks volumes.

Instead of listening and learning, you go on the attack.  That's why people left this board, as I was told.

I had my own blog and shut it down because the ignorance from collectors astounded me.  They were stubborn, rude, belligerent, just as you are.

People claiming to have done this and that, and bragging, and when I would ask them a specific question that I couldn't remember the answer to, all l got was double-talk.

IF discussions about analog being better than digital go on and on foolishly, or TDM is over our heads, or what is the PSTN prevail here, then this is either a joke, or we've got a lot of telecom imposters here.  Go play with your phones.  I don't want to talk to you.

[Alex G. Bell]

It is very obvious you both are not telecom professionals, and never worked for an ILEC or Lucent or Nortel, etc.  Don't pretend to be what you're not.

If you don't know what long loop vs. short means in the industry and how that affects "REN", then you couldn't even get a job as an installer in the golden age of telephony.  If you know don't most homes have jacks that are wired in series to minimize cable that speaks volumes.

Instead of listening and learning, you go on the attack.  That's why people left this board, as I was told.

I had my own blog and shut it down because the ignorance from collectors astounded me.  They were stubborn, rude, belligerent, just as you are.

People claiming to have done this and that, and bragging, and when I would ask them a specific question that I couldn't remember the answer to, all l got was double-talk.

IF discussions about analog being better than digital go on and on foolishly, or TDM is over our heads, or what is the PSTN prevail here, then this is either a joke, or we've got a lot of telecom imposters here.  Go play with your phones.  I don't want to talk to you.

Au contraire.  You don't know what you're talking about.  You need to do some research on line.

Ringers have not been wired in series in the US since the 1920s.  Only in the UK and perhaps other European countries are they.

If you worked in the industry it's clear that you rose well past your level of competence, something that's easy in many large bureaucracies where politics is such a big part of who gets ahead.

It's too bad that you interpret people disagreeing with your documentably incorrect statements as a personal attack.  They are nothing of the kind.  If you can get past your insecurities and read what people actually say instead of totally misconstruing it perhaps you will be able to make more progress and be less bitter.

[Victor Laszlo]

"If you know don't most homes have jacks that are wired in series to minimize cable that speaks volumes."

There is a difference between the topology of daisy chain wiring, (all jacks in parallel, along one long wire) and the electrical scheme of series. I can understand what you are trying to say, but you are saying it incorrectly. The wires are NOT in series, and the topology is NOT home runs. One is correct , the other is BS.  You are confused. If all the jacks were wired in series, then all the phones would need to be off-hook for any one of them to seize dial tone.  Go back and draw it out on a piece of paper.

And by the way, every successful installer, and installation, from the time of 25-pair station cables right up to the present time, with Cat5e wire, uses the home-run method. It is the only logical way to effect MAC. You can't do that with daisy chain wiring. If any of my employees were to violate the home-run rule, the'd be fired immediately.

As to my bona fides, I joined Bell of PA in 1969 right out of electrical engineering school. 3 years, no degree, education interrupted by adventures in South East Asia. Thirty two years at Bell, as a station installer, key system installer, PBX installer, power man, radio loop tech, repairing everything I installed as I went along, instructor at plant school, security agent researching toll fraud, assigned for while to a police agency to harden and update their PSAP and MSAG.  Worked on manual boards, S X S, crossbar, ESS, all the Dimensions and Merlins, and the 800A, 756, 757, etc.  Became a supervisor of maintenance splicers and the air-gang. Climbed the poles, went in the holes. 

I have taught countless workers and civilians in how it all works. Your misinformed, yet I feel, well-intentioned statements need to be thought out and translated by and for the audience so as not to be misleading.

"I don't want to talk to you."  That's the smartest thing you've said so far. Stick to your guns, no coming back...

[unbeldi]

It is very obvious you both are not telecom professionals, and never worked for an ILEC or Lucent or Nortel, etc.  Don't pretend to be what you're not.

If you don't know what long loop vs. short means in the industry and how that affects "REN", then you couldn't even get a job as an installer in the golden age of telephony.  If you know don't most homes have jacks that are wired in series to minimize cable that speaks volumes.

When you only provide a list of terms with no sentence structure, and pretend that this conveys any information or explanation, than you're wrong, and you are going to be misunderstood.

I know very well what a long loop is vs. a short loop and I certainly know how that effects ringer performance, and I also have the education to understand any theoretical and practical exposition of the principles of electricity and magnetism.  But I don't throw the equations around like you do the acronyms, because I know it would be over most people's head.

Your posts of showering a recently new poster with acronyms and technologies, that had no benefit to the immediate subject matter, and calling him names, is what got the thread deleted, I surmise.  I didn't agree with the manner of talk-back by the questioner either, but your responses were over the top.

Instead of listening and learning, you go on the attack.  That's why people left this board, as I was told.

It appears you went on the attack and your tone of the rest of this message, not quoted, is in the same tone.

[unbeldi]

There is certainly a difference  when one means by daisy chaining to wire multiple ringers in series.  I was at first also taken back by that phrase, but  we all know that nobody (or almost nobody) wires ringer in series anymore in a loop, so it obviously means to wire multiple jacks in parallel along a single run of wire, vs running a separate wire pair from each jack to a central point of interconnection.     Given the typical short runs of wire required in a typical home, the resistance differences, as well as any reactance on the runs, is negligible.

[Alex G. Bell]

There is certainly a difference  when one means by daisy chaining to wire multiple ringers in series.  I was at first also taken back by that phrase, but we all know that nobody wires ringer in series anymore in a loop, so it obviously means to wire multiple jacks in parallel along a single run of wire, vs running a separate wire pair from each jack to a central point of interconnection.     

He has used the terms "daisy chained" and "series" and this thread begins discussing actually connecting ringers in series, which the Brits either still do or did until recently and which early AT&T 4-dig "Specifications" also show.  So I have to assume that when he uses the word he means what he says.

OTOH, there are so many other blatant misstatements in his replies that there's no reason to dwell on this perhaps semantic point.

Given the typical short runs of wire required in a typical home, the resistance differences, as well as any reactance on the runs, is negligible.

That's what I said in #55.  Even my statement about ringers being required to respond to 40V was taken by him to mean that 40V was applied at the switching equipment, absolutely what I clearly did not say.  He takes everything people say and turns it upside down.

[Dominic_ContempraPhones]

Get off your high horse.  You use the word resistance incorrectly in reference to an AC ringing signal as if it were DC.  Impedance.

They should call you Mr. Pedantic.

You have an AC signal of 90v (root mean square) at 20 Hz superimposed over a DC signal.

I worked with Bell Labs engineers at BNR -- they could disintegrate you in two seconds.

Older phones require more than 40 volts to ring.  The shape of the wave matters.  The frequency matters.   The age of the magnets in those relics matter.

You must be an English prof with a pole stuck up his butt if all you can do is fixate on "daisy chained" vs. "series".  You know what I mean.  I'm referring to the jack wiring.

Industry uses Daisy chained and series interchangeably because a break in the line affects everything downstream.  From an electrical perspective it is not series obviously, but measurements taken to 5 phones, each on its own loop, will not be the same as those taken on systems where all 5 phones hang off one circular loop or those that split.  I said that REN was an estimate, and you go into your holier than thou lecture.  Shut up.

If a water pipe is split into five in my basement and each goes to 5 bathrooms vs. that one pipe going to bathroom 1 and from there to bathroom 2 and then 3 then 4 and 5 with shower fixtures and toilets hanging off that loop ...

Do you think the flow of water and the effect of a toilet flush will be the same under various scenarios in both cases?

dai·sy chain
ˈdāzē ˈˌCHān/Submit
verb
past tense: daisy chained; past participle: daisy chained
connect (several devices) together in a linear series.

You guys are the joke.

[dsk]

I am an amateur and even have another language. I am sorry to see people be so upset, and loosing their temper, but still, I have to ask for schematics. Here in Norway all phones was connected in par allell like power outlets.  We never used the REN as Unit, bet were told to have a max of 2 ringers on a line. O'er ringers WA typical i k ohm in series with 1 microFarad.  Early fixed installations could have one cap And 2 ringers in series. Ring in generators 90 v at 25 Hz measred with a regular simple multimeter.  Sorry for no diagrams, this is written on my phone.
dsk

[Victor Laszlo]

M O D E R A T O R ! ! !

HERE IS ANOTHER WILD POSTING, FULL OF PERSONAL AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.

WILL YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PERSON?

IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT HIS FACTS ARE WRONG, BUT THE NAME-CALLING CONTINUES.

DO YOU WANT TO LOSE THE INPUT FROM MANY OF US WHO HAVE REACHED OUR LEVEL OF TOLERANCE?

[TelePlay]

M O D E R A T O R ! ! !

HERE IS ANOTHER WILD POSTING, FULL OF PERSONAL AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.

WILL YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PERSON?

IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT HIS FACTS ARE WRONG, BUT THE NAME-CALLING CONTINUES.

DO YOU WANT TO LOSE THE INPUT FROM MANY OF US WHO HAVE REACHED OUR LEVEL OF TOLERANCE?

Thanks. Saw that this morning and rather than risk being accused of outright censorship, I split the bickering off of the good and helpful REN topic to see what happens in this cage match.

We are aware (it has been reported to the moderators by members) and even after more than a few other posts elsewhere by several members and me asking for civility and meaningful help to requesting members, the invective continues.

Thanks again for the post.