Hi All,
I'm an avid fountain pen collector and thought it would be nice to get a couple of phones from the period of my pen interest (1900-1940). I got a WE 202 D1 (third quarter of 1936). I'll post pictures later when I figure out how to do so (they keep getting rejected by the site).
I've tried to do my homework and have looked at the wiring diagrams and several discussions, but as a complete newbie I am still lost and so need some help with the most basic aspects. Hopefully you guys have some patience for some completely novice questions.... I'll gladly trade fountain pen information for phone information if I can!
The first thing I did was to check the wiring, which looks to be in good shape. All the wiring matches the diagram in the thread here, except there was a corroded 61A filter in place that I removed and replaced with a wire (BK-Y):
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0
(diagram for B, D mount 202 dial)
So I know that this phone requires a subset to work properly, but can be hooked up directly to a line short term to test (it has the later handset that is less prone to damage). I took a phone wire that plugs into my landline jack at home (it's an old-fashioned Verizon landline and not an internet phone line) and stripped the wires to expose red/green yellow/black. My understanding is that red/green is the primary line circuit, and yellow/black is for a second line. When I plugged in the jack and checked, there was indeed current running between the red and green, but no other combinations.
The WE 202 phone has red green yellow black wires. As best as I could tell, the connection should be phone red-jack red, phone green-jack green, phone yellow-jack yellow. I tried this hookup but got no dial tone.
OK, so what next? How do I narrow down the problem? I tested all the wire connections with an ohm meter and they all seem to be intact......
Thanks!
Otto
Hot-wiring is not recommended, but if you must....
You only need to connect the yellow and green wires from the phone to the red and green wires from the wall/jack. Doesn't matter which wires from the phone go to which in the wall.
Sound quality won't be balanced, but you will be able to dial and carry on a conversation. (Provided the service you are on will function with rotary dialing). The phone won't ring, of course, because there is no ringer without a subset.
Thanks for the quick response Bill....
This is not intended for long term, just a quick test that the phone works. I've got a couple of options for a subset or mini network (I also got a rotary dial candlestick, so I'll probably use the mini network for this phone and the subset for the candlestick). I tried what you suggested and there is no dial tone. There must be something wrong with the phone.
Green and red conductors of the 4-conductor cord are actually for the receiver circuit only.
You may want to remove the receiver unit and measure the resistance across the two contacts on the back. It should be about 26 ohms, and you should also hear faint clicks from the battery in the meter. If not, the receiver is probably open (defective).
If it's good there, then replace reinstall the receiver unit, and measure across the R and W terminals inside the handset. (If not, then either the two contact springs in the handle are not making good contact with the receiver, or the wiring inside the handle is bad).
If still 26 ohms there, measure across the R dial terminal and W dial terminal, i. e. , where the handset cord is connected. (If not working, then the handset cord is open.)
Next, leaving one probe on R, move the other from W on dial to BB on dial. (If not working, then the bottom two contact springs of the dial are not making.)
Then move probe from BB on dial to W on hookswitch.
Then move probe from W on hookswitch to GN on hookswitch, with the handset out of the cradle.
Last, move this probe to the green conductor on the loose end of the cord, and the other probe from R on the dial to the loose red conductor.
Quote from: poplar1 on August 24, 2015, 07:37:29 AM...measure across the R dial terminal and W dial terminal, i. e. , where the handset cord is connected. (If not working, then the handset cord is open.)
Is that piece of electrical tape on the white handset wire possibly concealing damage to the wire?.
Thanks so much guys! I'll try the suggestions this evening after work.
Good eye! The electrical tape was placed by myself because the housing was worn through at that spot. However, the wire underneath was completely intact.
I appreciate the help.
You may use a battery of 4.5-9V for testing. The current should go from battery trough transmitter trough receiver trough pulse contacts in dial and trough at least one hooksw. contact set and back to the battery. The order of these components or polarity does not matter.
It will give loud clicks in the receiver when dialing. To stop those clicks you may use a set of contacts on the dial to just short out the receiver when dial is out of rest position. This will work until you get your mini-network.
dsk
Well, I only got to step 1 of your troubleshooting. I unscrewed the earpiece and took out what I assume you are calling the "receiver" (sorry; I don't know the terminology so forgive me if I am inaccurate), pictured. I used the meter to test the connection between the center terminal and the surrounding ring terminal, and it was dead (open). I looked underneath the plate with the terminals on it and saw that there are two hair-fine wires, and at least one of them seems broken.... I tried to take a picture. There is a fuzzy blob on one wire, which I am assuming is some type of corrosion.
I hot-wired the phone and checked the terminals in the handset where the receiver sits; there was live current running between them when the hook is up, which goes away when the hook is down. So it looks like the receiving part of the phone has intact wiring.
With the phone hot-wired, I tried to dial out to my cell phone, but it did not ring. I guess that means either there is a problem with the output of the phone, a problem with the dialer mechanism, or that my landline doesn't take pulse dialing.
First things first though, is there a way for me to repair the receiver? Can I solder new wires in place?
Difficult to be certain but from the limited view, it appears that the receiver is a clone of WECo's HA1 and was perhaps, manufactured by Holtzer-Cabot, Connecticut or another manufacturer.
This is another reason for not using a battery for testing or dc flowing through a receiver without some form of current limiting.
A replacement should not be very expensive but if you want to try soldering it, first carefully burn-off the varnish with your soldering iron. Then tin it and solder another fine-gauge wire to it. Then finish by soldering the extension wire to the terminal.
This is a difficult job for even experienced soldering technicians, so don't be disappointed if the outcome is less than successful.[/font]
Well, if the receiver is open then nothing will work when hotwired, because the hotwired circuit depends on the transmitter and the receiver being connected in series. So, with no functioning receiver, you won't be able to dial a number. If the receiver is blown, I am sure someone here will have an HA1 receiver they can sell you for a reasonable price. Alternatively, you could go to oldphoneworks.com and get one for $4.95 plus shipping from Ontario, Canada.
BTW, In an earlier post, I indicated that all you needed to do was connect the green and yellow wires to the line. I did neglect to say that in order for dialing to take place, you need to disable the function of the dial that turns off the receiver during dialing. Therefore, you would need to move the white wire fro the W terminal on the dial to the W terminal on the hookswitch. Understand that with this modification which allows a hotwired phone to dial, the unfortunate by-product is loud clicks in the receiver during dialing. This, of course, assumes a properly functioning receiver element.
I agree with G-man, the receiver element you have is not Western Electric. Was it in a WE F1 handset? Can you post a picture of the handset? I also agree with him that soldering the wire on a receiver element is a very delicate operation and very difficult to get enough extra slack in the wire to repair a break, even if your micro-soldering skills are good. Easier to just replace it.
Thanks all! Update:
The receiver is labeled HA1, so it's either a WE or a very precise clone. I did get a replacement that is functional. When I hot-wired the phone, it both receives and sends sound, so everything is working in those circuits. I have not yet tried the rewiring to test the dial function, but I think I will do that after I hook it up to a subset.
Thanks again everyone; you are such a nice and helpful community.
Otto
Quote from: oyang on August 28, 2015, 04:12:49 PM
Thanks all! Update:
I have not yet tried the rewiring to test the dial function, but I think I will do that after I hook it up to a subset.
With a subset, there is no rewiring needed.
I'm posting a picture of the whole phone (including handset) since I neglected to do that before. Cosmetically it seems nice to me, although I don't know how collectors would rate it.
So, using diagrams on this site, I wired this phone to a 685A subset that looked like it was in someone's damp basement for a few decades.... and to my surprise it worked perfectly fine (after I corrected a couple of small mistakes in wiring).
For posterity (i.e. another newbie who wants to see a picture rather than just a wiring diagram) I'm attaching a picture of my final wiring setup.
Final question about this phone and subset: Is there a need to replace the wiring even though it's all working? Is there any safety hazard from using it with these old wires, as long as I examined them and saw that they are still completely covered and not frayed? There was only one worn area of insulation on one wire that I wrapped with electrical tape.
Thanks again everyone.... You may hear from me again soon, as I have a next project already planned: a WE 51AL and a 634AT subset.
Image of my final working wiring (before I added spade connectors to the ends of the new wires I added, but otherwise the working setup)
Nice phone and welcome to the world of phones. A word of caution, these things are addictive in nature, and this forum is the next best step to a 12-step recovery meeting, but some might say that this forum is to phone collectors what a bar is to an alcoholic. Either way, you might expect the collection to grow in time. Just think how nice that 202 will look sitting on the same desk with a fountain pen holder from the 1930's. A good "go-with" item.
No need to replace the wiring. In fact original is always best unless the insulation is so shot that it is shorting out or causing static due to deteriorating flexible wires in the handset and line cords. These are not connected to any kind of voltages that would make them hazardous. The most hazardous thing would be touching the line cord wires while ringing current is applied. Not lethal, but certainly a shock that gets your attention. Certainly not a fire hazard.
Phone line voltage with no load is 48 volts DC from a legacy central office and some Internet phone ATA's. Most other Internet ATA's provide 24 volts DC under no load. Once you pick up the phone and put a load on the line, the voltage will drop to under 10 volts. Whether on or off hook you are not likely to have any issues by touching the phone line wires with no ringing current applied to the line.
Ringing current is AC at about 70 to 90 volts and usually at 20 Hz. Low current and the duration is only a second or two at a time. It will shock you in an uncomfortable way if you happen to be touching the wires when a call comes in. If you happen to have a very bad heart or have a pacemaker, I suppose it could be lethal, but to a normal person it is just uncomfortable.
I noticed that this subset uses a 425E network and a C4A ringer. Is this typical for the type of subset mentioned?
I believe the 425E network has a screw terminal for "C." If the wire is soldered, it's a 425B. Either of these may be present, along with the C4A ringer, in a 685A subset.
Thanks! I'm very prone to collecting addiction, especially when it has an element of tinkering. I will have to be careful, as I plan to be "finished" with my phone collecting when I have restored a rotary candlestick. We shall see....
Welcome. As far as being "finished" with your collection, it will never happen. Phoneitis is a progressive, incurable disease. There will always be another model or another color or maybe a special tool for that phone or a sign or a booth, it never ends! ;D ;D
Ha ha! You may be right. I have the "collecting gene." I have over 300 vintage fountain pens (1890-1920 being my collecting focus). I have 12 phonographs, which I stopped collecting only because my home and office are full. The combination of utility, tinkering (restoring pens with new ink bladders etc, replacing springs in phonographs), sculptural/design beauty.... make items like phones irresistible. It's interesting to me that pens, phonographs, and phones (as well as automobiles, which I'd collect if I had money/space/time) all parallel each other in history. They were all three innovated in the USA around the same time, with the USA being the dominant producer, with a diversity of designs evolving in the early 1900s.
My collecting plan is to restore a candlestick rotary (I just posted asking for help with it), and a Gray paystation. I'm on faculty at a university, so I plan on putting the paystation in my office and having people deposit a nickel for every question they ask me!
Otto
Quote from: oyang on September 02, 2015, 03:40:32 PM
They were all three innovated in the USA around the same time,
... as long as you don't mean
invented. ;D
Otto, I have a Parker just like the one in the front of your 202. My mom, a veteran auction-goer who passed the collecting gene to me, got it in a lot of old pens many years ago and I admired its design then and now. The concentric rings with mother of pearl, or whatever it is in between, is fascinating to look at. Mine is a little yellower or browner looking, as I recall, but I haven't seen it in a long time, so I'd better look around for it. If I find it, I may be back in touch with a PM to get some restoration supply advice.
Many of us collect more than just phones. Old radios are another rewarding thing to collect. I would love to collect old cars too, but space and cost are prohibitive. I liked the cars of the 1950s when they were still a common sight in my childhood and have ever since.
Welcome to the Forum, where you will find many with the "collecting gene."
I don't know phones, but I DO know pens, so anyone around here who wants advice on value and restoration, feel free to ping me. I've been collecting about 25 years, and unfortunately the pen collector crowd is not nearly as nice as the phone crowd. There are many great people in the hobby, but also a lot of sharks since pens can be big money.... the rarest vintage pens can go tens of thousands of dollars.
The pen you have, if it is like the one in my picture, is a Parker Vacuumatic from the late 1930s. The plastic is layered celluloid, and the pen was lathed from a block. If it is the standard size, I have the right tools to restore it. Filling is via a compressible diaphragm, pushed by a plunger that is exposed when you remove a blind cap at the end of the barrel. That bladder hardens over time and will need replacing if it is old, but the good news is that usually that is all that is needed to put the pen back in fully working order. Like phones, old fountain pens are wonderfully complex simple items, that don't need repair after being fixed.
As far as "innovated" versus "invented," I think the latter term would apply to fountain pens (people tried unsuccessfully for centuries to make fountain pens, i.e. pens holding their own ink supply, but were unable to get around the problem of controlling ink flow out a closed reservoir until a patent by Lewis Waterman in New York circa 1880) and phonographs (Edison and Berliner).
Thanks for the warm welcome, and I hope I can contribute something other than requests for help to these boards.
Otto
Nice D1!
Phones are a convenient exception when it comes to collecting appliances and electronics. They're easy to find, the desk sets have a small surface area (perfect for display; make room for more of 'em) and, if you know what you have, can make a great profit from valuable phones found for dirt cheap!