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Hagenuk Kiel W48 (Old German Phone)

Started by LM Ericsson, February 17, 2011, 03:34:47 PM

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DavePEI

Quote from: TelePlay on October 26, 2011, 07:55:22 PM
Quote from: GG on October 16, 2011, 01:09:00 AM


I was looking at that one, and then I thought, I already have one of those, someone else around here probably doesn't, they're pretty rare, and the price is affordable.  So yeah, go for it.

The phone arrived today and it came as a project. The seller wrapped the handset separate from the base. The seller wrapped the base so tight that the cradle was pressed down. The base was then put in a box that was too shallow - the clearance between the base and the top and bottom of the box was none, zero, zip, nada. During shipment, the box must have taken a blow and one half of the cradle was broken off. One of the ears is gone - broke right in the middle above the plunger.

Also has a rattle within the phone base but was too depressed to open it up, or take pictures. Also, the right side of the base at the bottom has a small pea sized chip out of it. The transmitter cup has an inch long crack. The handset cloth cord is in bad shape and the line cord does not exist.

As soon as I get over the anger I have over the stupid packaging, and I did ask him to pack it well to prevent damage, I'll open it up and start to research base repairs.

On the bright side, the dial turns well.

Seems to be from 1960, dates on both the transmitter and receiver elements.

I'll keep the phone - needed a winter project.

What a shame. I have had that experience a couple of times. Do go after the seller for some sort of rebate. Take photos when you feel a bit better about it.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

GG


Ouch.  Difficult part to replace, though not impossible: find one that's going for cheap due to a smashed lower housing, and swap parts around.  My impression is that W48s are like GPO 332s in that all the parts are interchangeable across manufacturers.  Might take you as much as a year to find one for a parts donor.

I tend to take a carrot-and-stick approach to packaging, and if we all do that, over time people will wise up and ship properly. 

I always send notes to sellers along with my payment, saying "extra positive feedback for good packaging" and describe (the usual standard practices around here).   In recent memory this has prevented shipping disasters.  Today I received a GPO Trimphone packaged like there should have been a 332 in the box (!), so that seller gets a great big Thank You in the comments: "excellent shipping" etc. 

So what I'd recommend is sending the seller a note saying that it was received smashed, and since it was obvious negligence on their part, you expect a 100% refund including shipping charges.  If they (what's a G-rated way to say this?) try playing games with you about it, give the transaction a negative rating with zeros all across and a comment saying "item was smashed due to poor packaging by seller."  Yes that will cost them in various penalties from Ebay, but it will also make them fix their shipping practices right quick and say something about that in their listings from then on. 

If they do refund your money, give them positive ratings but note in the comments that "item was poorly packed and smashed; seller gave refund" or something like that.  Thus they won't get hit with penalties but they will still have to deal with their shipping practices.

Harsh?  H--- yeah, but Ebay is a market, not a social club or a gambling site, and even casual sellers need to be held to a minimum standard where goods are as described and arrive intact.  If they can't do that, they shouldn't be selling, any more than someone who willfully cheats in some way.

DavePEI

#17
Quote from: GG on October 27, 2011, 06:19:18 AM

I tend to take a carrot-and-stick approach to packaging, and if we all do that, over time people will wise up and ship properly.  

I always send notes to sellers along with my payment, saying "extra positive feedback for good packaging" and describe (the usual standard practices around here).   In recent memory this has prevented shipping disasters.  Today I received a GPO Trimphone packaged like there should have been a 332 in the box (!), so that seller gets a great big Thank You in the comments: "excellent shipping" etc.  

How about posting a copy of the note you send sellers with your payment, and perhaps others can use it to assist them in taking up the same practice. If many start doing the same, it won't take long for sellers in general of phones to take up better packing practices?

Just an idea, and I like the carrot-and-stick approach!

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

GG



Re. German manufacturers: Siemens was huge, Krone and TeleNorm (T&N) were one step down in size, and then there were a bunch of smaller ones including Hagenuk and a few others. 

Apparently T&N arose after the Nazis confiscated another manufacturer or two from their original Jewish owners (I think one of them was Fuld), and smooshed them together into a new company.  After WW2 concluded, that company was de-Nazified by the Allies and rearranged again, and the result was TeleNorm.  The way I think of it is that all of these companies were victims of Naziism, even the ones that built military hardware during the war.  Moral culpability rests squarely with the Nazi regime itself, not with the companies or individuals who were put in the position of going along or getting crushed.  So to my mind, TeleNorm is "clean" in the sense of not bearing any "bad karma" for its origins during that time period. 

And speaking of German industry back to the early 20th century, the Zeppelin company exists to this day and is now back to building proper Zeppelins (rigid-frame airships), lifted by 100% safe helium.  The new Zeppelins are smaller, and used for purposes such as aerial survey work, but perhaps some day we will once again see the return of much larger ones performing workhorse jobs such as heavy lifting, and even carrying passengers on practical flight routes. 

GG


Hi Dave (I see we're both keeping Geek Hours tonight:-)

I don't have a copy-and-paste standard "form letter" for this, but the following is a pretty good example:

"Hi - These are actually very fragile and easily damaged in transit; I give extra positive feedback for good shipping.  Please bubble-wrap handset and base unit each separately, and pack in a strong corrugated box with enough stuffing that nothing moves when shaken.  Thanks - (name)."

The above didn't anticipate what happened to John, so to that I would probably want to add some wording about using a big enough box.  I've had a couple of shipping disasters, the worst was an Australian PMG version of HES-2 in gray bakelite that was packed with nothing more than a little newspaper and arrived majorly smashed; these are very rare and my "acrylic repair" didn't quite make the repairs invisible so it will probably have to get the Polane treatment or something.  (Speaking of which: anyone here know anyone who does Polane or equivalent coatings, preferably color-matched?)

DavePEI

#20
Quote from: GG on October 27, 2011, 06:50:53 AM

Hi Dave (I see we're both keeping Geek Hours tonight:-)


Hi there:

Well, not really geek hours here. It is 8:15 am here, and I guess I left that message about an hour ago before I went over to do some work in the museum...

At least that gives me some idea of what wording should be used. It makes me wonder if maybe we should all try to come up with a "standard" cut and paste message for sellers - if they receive the same message from many buyers, it might make them pay a bit more attention to it, and make them realize it is a common problem collectors are wary of.

I must say, the last phone I received in the mail (the 12 digit strowger), was really well packed. I was very pleased how it was done, but i have had some which only luck saved from total destruction....

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

DavePEI

#21
Quote from: GG on October 27, 2011, 06:50:53 AM
I don't have a copy-and-paste standard "form letter" for this, but the following is a pretty good example:

How about the following?

Hi:

Telephones and telephone equipment are actually very fragile and easily damaged in transit; I give extra positive feedback for good shipping.

Some points to consider while shipping:

Economizing on the size of a box is not a saving if the parcel arrives damaged. Please allow room around the packaged item for bubble wrap. Pack with enough stuffing to prevent any shifting.

Packing peanuts are not great packing for heavy items - the item will shift in them until it is against the sides of the box. Peanuts may be used if the article is bubble wrapped first. Newspaper is terrible packaging material for heavy items - it will collapse flat and afford no protection at all.

It there are protrusions on the item, such as wood phones with receiver hooks, transmitters protruding, consider bubble wrapping them separately and boxing around them to protect against accidental parcel drops while shipping. Switch-hooks on wooden sets can be removed by pulling the pin in the mount and may be placed inside the box if not possible to box around.

Receivers and handsets should always be removed from the hook, and bubble wrapped separately from the phone itself.

By following these instructions you are not only protecting your reputation as a seller and protecting your buyer's investment, but also by increasing buyer's confidence in your services.

Thanks,

(Name)

Perhaps below your name, a list of collector's groups you belong to:
i.e. ATCA, TCI, Rotary Phone Forum, etc.

That may suggest to the seller that is not packed well, complaints may air through those venues.

Dave
The Telephone Museum of Prince Edward Island:
http://www.islandregister.com/phones/museum.html
Free Admission - Call (902) 651-2762 to arrange a visit!
C*NET 1-651-0001

TelePlay

#22
I did ask the seller to pack it using wording from this forum. Seller used a 6 inch deep box to ship a phone that is 6 inches high without the handset on the cradle. With the bubble pack wrapped tightly around the base, the wrapped base just fit into the 6 inch deep box. But, it seems the phone was compromised before it was shipped as shown below.

So, I got the courage to get my camera and the phone out tonight for a closer look. Here's what I found out.

The eBay listing had 4 photos, all from the front and only one with the handset off of the cradle. Looking closely at the eBay photo that did not have the handset in place, the cradle elevated, it can be seen that the cradle support on the side on which the ear broke off was missing. Looking closely at all of the eBay photos, there appears to be a light scratch across the cradle exactly where the ear broke off. Interesting.

The seller in his listing said only this: "From our Vintage One-of-a-kind line. Vintage, antique or gently loved, these items are sold on an as-is basis and are non-returnable. Once they are sold, they are gone for good. Some of our found treasures may have minor imperfections that in no way detract from the charm of each piece we offer. Because of the nature of these items, all sales are final."

Minor imperfections? There is a inch and a half crack in the transmitter crack, a pea sized chip out of the base, half of the cradle is broken off and the cradle support is broken off and missing.

On the bright side, the bottom of the base and the interior are in mint condition and it seems to be a 1954 phone even though the transmitter and receiver elements have 1960 dates.

I send a message to the seller noting all this and asking what the seller thinks about these issues.

Photos follow. The first two are from the eBay listing, the last 4 taken on my bench.

GG



Dave - Excellent!  Only thing is, you get something like 400 characters in the "message to seller" while paying for the item, so you'd have to let them know in that message, "see my shipping instructions sent to you in separate email about this item, and I'll gladly pay extra shipping cost."   Then go through the "questions to sellers" process and keep checking "other," since your question isn't covered by one of Ebay's "1984-postcard"-style checkboxes.   Eventually that will take you to the section where you can actually write a message to the seller, and send the complete text you have there.

I thought Ebay also had forums of some kind, so you could post the instructions there as well, and then link to them in a message.  This would make the information available to all sellers in that category.

I'd say payphones are particularly difficult to ship.  The hookswitches on AE payphones being the most at-risk.  Probably styrofoam blocks on that side of the phone are a good idea.  (Though, I once had a red GPO 735 POA payphone shipped from England; it was in transit during 9/11, but it got here without a scratch.) 

John-

It's also not impossible that what you have there is a pre-broken telephone shipped in a manner that has "plausible deniability."  I just got a Russian VEF desk set with an obvious hole in the handset cradle area that "escaped" the photos by 1/4", also "plausibly deniable," but fortunately fixable.   (Note: Russian phones without damage are as rare as pre-1940 302s, buyer beware!)

OTOH the seller may try to claim that the flaws were already visible in the photos and thus not allowable as grounds for returns. 

To which your counterpoint is, if those pieces were actually broken before the phone was sold, the seller had an obligation to disclose them rather than sticking the pieces together well enough for a blurry photo and then using a shipping method that could conveniently be blamed.  Don't use the word "misleading" but it's OK to say that something like "if that handset cradle was in pieces before shipping, then putting it back together for the photo but failing to disclose it in any way, created an incorrect impression of the condition of the item." 

Fortunately the transmitter ring is an easy repair with Krazy Glue and sandpaper, and should become an invisible repair when done.

IF the broken rectangular piece under the movable cradle was NOT present amidst the stuffing in the box, then that break fully occurred BEFORE the phone was shipped, and the seller stuck it together for the blurry photo-shoot.  IF the broken piece under the cradle WAS present amidst the stuffing, then it's also probably repairable with krazy glue and could also become "invisible."   

As for the mint condition interior, that's like buying a used car and having it delivered with the side that wasn't visible in the photos all bashed in and a perfectly good engine & transmission.  The bodywork repair alone makes it a total loss, salvageable for parts. 

Either way, I would not take any "male bovine manure" from the seller about this.  Either they were negligent about shipping, or their description was fraudulent.  Stand up for yourself, and in doing so, know that you're standing up for the whole community here and for all buyers in general who refuse to be jacked around by clever disclaimers and mushy marketing language such as "fine treasures" and "minor imperfections."  A minor imperfection is repairable without spending an entire weekend doing so.

One more thing about the cradle: those were made of an early type of soft plastic to make them less easily breakable than bakelite.  Thus breaks that do occur have a kind of "fibrous" appearance at the break line.  It may (maybe, might, possibly) also be repairable without any visible signs, but that's a gamble at best.





TelePlay

Sent a message to the seller on 10-27, no reply.

Sent another message to the seller on 10-30 and no reply as of this post.

It seems the seller is ignoring me. Any suggestions of what to do next and what type of feedback to leave on eBay?

Thanks for any help on this.

GG


Sounds pretty egregious to me.

Send a complaint to Ebay and make application to PayPal for a complete refund.  That will also get the seller's attention.  If the seller does not reply in a few more days, post negative feedback with the message "item poorly packed, arrived smashed, seller did not reply, refund sought."

If the seller won't bother to offer any kind of communication or partial refund, you're entitled to whatever you can get back from PayPal. 


TelePlay

#26
I opened a case in the eBay resolution center. That got the seller's attention. The seller responded with a refund of shipping costs. All I wanted was an apology and/or explanation of the description not matching the true condition.

Seller denied the phone was broken. I took the cradle and support apart. Glue residue is visible on the broken cradle parts and on the bottom of the cradle which would not have been visible to the seller. The glue joint is visible in the seller's eBay photo, looks like a scratch, so the seller may not have known the prior owner broke and glued the cradle - that's giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I offered photos of the parts as proof. I'll accept the refund and look at this as an interesting project. Will post work in a new thread once I begin the "reconstruction" project.

AE_Collector

Quote from: DavePEI on October 27, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
the last phone I received in the mail (the 12 digit strowger), Dave

It must have been packed well Dave. Instead of losing parts in transit, it actually gained a Digit! Now that's service.

Terry