Western Electric embossed on bottom?

[Greg G.]

I've never seen this before.  Also, what is the rarity/value of an embossed Bell System logo on the finger wheel?  This is on a modular black 500.

[jsowers]

The Bell logo fingerwheels are something that was done very late into production, in the 1980s--I think. This is a late model 500, circa 1983 or 84 or maybe refurbed later. The embossing on the bottom is also a late model thing. Funny that they embossed an arrow next to the bell adjuster but not the word "LOUD."

The logo fingerwheels may have been something done because phones bought in the Phone Store didn't usually have a number card there, so it was decorative.

[poplar1]

You are correct that this was a retail set--sold in the phone center stores or at a chain store such as Sears, Service Merchandise, or KMart. This is indicated by the "CS" in the model number (Consumer Sales).

I don't think it is a refurb: 83199 means it was manufactured on the 199th day of 1983 (Julian calendar). The Bell emblem that was embossed next to the words "Western Electric" on the housing and handset changed to "AT&T" after 83365 (12/31/83). The Bell emblem on the dial may have gone away at the same time. (In any case, Shreveport and Indianapolis factories were closed within a few years.)

The equipment had "American Bell" stickers after 1/1/84 for a little while, but soon Judge Green prevented AT&T (which owned Western Electric, then known as "American Technologies Inc." or something similar) from using the  word "Bell" except in "Bell Labs." There was also an exception on refurbished phones---they didn't have to remove the words "Bell System" or the Bell emblems, though by this time they were often putting on new plastic housings (marked AT&T) rather than repainting the old ones.

[LM Ericsson]

My grandfather had bought one of those 500s in the 80s. It was a tan and moss green one. A very odd color combination.

[LM Ericsson]

Heres a picture. That is my grandfather and my two older brothers in the picture.

[poplar1]

The "Western Electric" embossed in the metal predates the finger wheels with the Bell emblem. Not sure when they started this, but the 2500DM I am using manufactured in 1978 (78041) has this as well as "HI" embossed for the ringer volume.

[Greg G.]

What is the "1-PTY" on the bottom, below the model designation?

The seller seems to think this phone is worth more because of the finger wheel.  At $45, I'd say he's mistaken.  I usually shy away from modular phones, but not always.  In the past I have found early 500 sets that were refurbed to modular.  Not difficult to convert them back.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/atq/3186564694.html ( dead link 03-07-21 )

Black Rotary Desk Telephone - $45 (ne seattle)

Date: 2012-08-10, 10:00AM PDT
Reply to: see below

This telephone has not been tested so I will give you two days to take it home and test it. The reason this phone costs what it does is because it has that center disc with the Bell System bell on the dial. This phone was upgraded by the phone company and has modular plugs now.
If you are interested call Jim at (texts will always be ignored).

[poplar1]

"1-PTY"= 1 party=means it cannot be used on party lines.

Party lines divide the ringers so that (in Bell System areas) half the phones have the ringers connected to Red and Yellow (Ground) and the other half are connected to Green and yellow. Then ring current is sent out over either the red wire or green wire, depending on the party, with ground as the return path for ringing current. The party on a 2-party line connected to green and yellow (Tip party) also required (in later years for long distance billing and early on in areas like NYC where each local called was billed) a ringer with 4 wires instead of 2 so that proper party would be billed for the call.

The "1-PTY" phones do not have the yellow wire in the line jack nor do they have 4 wire ringers.

As for his claim that the phone was "upgraded" to modular,  this is not true since in 1983 they no longer made hardwired 500s.

The finger wheel is desirable but in my opinion does not make the phone worth over $20.

[MaximRecoil]

You are correct that this was a retail set--sold in the phone center stores or at a chain store such as Sears, Service Merchandise, or KMart. This is indicated by the "CS" in the model number (Consumer Sales).

I don't think it is a refurb: 83199 means it was manufactured on the 199th day of 1983 (Julian calendar). The Bell emblem that was embossed next to the words "Western Electric" on the housing and handset changed to "AT&T" after 83365 (12/31/83). The Bell emblem on the dial may have gone away at the same time. (In any case, Shreveport and Indianapolis factories were closed within a few years.)

The equipment had "American Bell" stickers after 1/1/84 for a little while, but soon Judge Green prevented AT&T (which owned Western Electric, then known as "American Technologies Inc." or something similar) from using the  word "Bell" except in "Bell Labs." There was also an exception on refurbished phones---they didn't have to remove the words "Bell System" or the Bell emblems, though by this time they were often putting on new plastic housings (marked AT&T) rather than repainting the old ones.

Very interesting. My Western Electric 2500DMG is #82039, so that means it was made on 2/8/82? The plastic housing and handset are both marked "AT&T" though (and they are in like-new condition), so it must have been refurbished? I did think it was odd that the housing and handset are in nearly new condition while the keypad and modular jacks are in a more used condition. It is a nice phone though; works perfectly.

[poplar1]

82039=2/8/82. As far as I know the housings and handsets marked AT&T did not appear before '84. Did you check the dates on the receiver and transmitter? They may be different from the dates on other components if the phone was refurbed.

Does anyone know exactly when they switched from "Bell System Property Not for Sale" (which started around 1968) on the handsets to the Bell Emblem + Western Electric?

The refurbs usually have some kind of sticker on the bottom though right before the AT&T service center (where the phones were rebuilt) closed they were no longer marking the model number and refurb date on the stickers.

[MaximRecoil]

The transmitter doesn't have a date. The only markings are embossed in the metal outer rim contact on the underside, which are "T-100", "112", and "NYC" ("NYC" has a diamond shape around it; looks like a logo of some sort).

The receiver is marked with "12 22-58". The base has a white rectangular sticker that says "R-85B07" in green letters, and there are two stickers underneath it that I can't read without removing the stickers on top.

The base is embossed with "HI" plus an arrow for the ringer volume control, "Western Electric", an FCC compliance and ringer equivalence message, and "BELL SYSTEM PROPERTY NOT FOR SALE"; plus it has the model number and serial number printed on it, as I mentioned in my previous post.

As a side note, this phone is extremely sensitive to being touched; i.e., you barely have to touch the phone to hear its ringer make a slight ding sound (which means you hear its ringer pretty much every time you touch the phone for any reason). None of my other WE phones (all older rotary dial models, 500s and 554s) are anywhere near that sensitive; you'd have to slam the handset down on the hook or something similar before the ringer would make a sound. The 2500's ringer sounds normal for incoming calls though, identical to my other WE phones.

[poplar1]

85BO7 means (I think) refurbished in the Boston WE service center in July, 1985. That explains the newer AT&T plastic on an older phone. The transmitter is not WE. Not sure who added that. The receiver was made in 1958 but may have been upgraded from a U1 to a U3 if it has a newer plastic (not metal) varistor across the receiver terminals.

[MaximRecoil]

The varistor is indeed plastic (has "103" molded into it). The receiver also has "U3" marked over an older marking that said "8-?0-R", where "?" represents a character that I can't make out because of the "U3" painted over it.

Your knowledge of these phones is amazing. You should write a book.