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Garbage Picked Wall Phone - Updated Kellogg Magneto Wall Phone

Started by Arthur Kill, May 23, 2017, 04:11:15 PM

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RB

Yeah, it looks like a Frankinphone, but the important question...imho... does it work like that?
If it does, cool... use it. you can find correct parts,"if you are lucky, and patient."
it is still a cool find. :)

Arthur Kill

Quote from: RB on May 24, 2017, 10:20:59 AM
Yeah, it looks like a Frankinphone, but the important question...imho... does it work like that?
If it does, cool... use it. you can find correct parts,"if you are lucky, and patient."
it is still a cool find. :)

You mean, I could actually use this as a functioning phone?  Wow!


Thank you to TelePlay, Babybearjs, wds, Sargeguy, Alex G. Bell and RB for your input -- with your expertise, I'm gaining some valuable knowledge. 

I really appreciate it!!

:)

Alex G. Bell

"Use" with some caveats.  You can connect it to another magneto phone as an intercom.  You can not use it directly on a dial line, even for answering calls, as-is.  You can build an adapter circuit to insert between it and a modern day line or modify it to make it compatible.  Most knowledgeable collectors prefer the first of these alternatives.

Arthur Kill

Quote from: Alex G. Bell on May 24, 2017, 12:24:48 PM
"Use" with some caveats.  You can connect it to another magneto phone as an intercom.  You can not use it directly on a dial line, even for answering calls, as-is.  You can build an adapter circuit to insert between it and a modern day line or modify it to make it compatible.  Most knowledgeable collectors prefer the first of these alternatives.

So, lemme get this straight -- I can connect this phone -- pretty much, as-is -- to a modern day phone line and have the ability to answer calls?  That sounds like a blast!!  Will it ring?

I'm pretty handy -- I have a supplies of wire and connectors etc -- I can splice and solder and have messed around with electronics at a hobbyist level. 

Are there details/instructions posted here or anywhere on the 'net that you could point me towards for guidance in this endeavor?

Thanks!!

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: Arthur Kill on May 24, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
So, lemme get this straight -- I can connect this phone -- pretty much, as-is -- to a modern day phone line and have the ability to answer calls?  That sounds like a blast!!  Will it ring?

I'm pretty handy -- I have a supplies of wire and connectors etc -- I can splice and solder and have messed around with electronics at a hobbyist level. 

Are there details/instructions posted here or anywhere on the 'net that you could point me towards for guidance in this endeavor?

Thanks!!
No!  You cannot connect it directly without modification.  You can only connect it as-is through a converter/adapter circuit which you probably will have to hand-build. 

There are circuits for this published on line but I have not looked for links recently so I cannot vouch for what's out there that's "the best" at the moment without searching and I can't spend time doing that at this time. 

I don't know what else is here on CRPF.  Perhaps searching the subject titles will turn something up, but here are a couple of articles which seem to address the problems competently:

http://oldphoneguy.net/local_bat_1.htm
http://atcaonline.com/ringercontrol.html

There may be better component choices than what are shown, especially for the "repeat coil" (archaic telephone industry term for a transformer).

One potential problem with the second link: This arrangement leaves the ringer across the line unless the magneto is operated.  Old ringers can potentially interfere with proper transmission of Caller ID signals.  An alternative which would be less likely to cause this would connect the ringer to the line only while ringing is present by inverting the connection of the relay contacts and operating the relay from the line instead of from the magneto.  This would require the rectifier bridge and relay coil to be "behind" capacitor C1 to block DC voltage from the line through the relay coil.  This however increases the ringing load, so it has a potential drawback too.  This should be minimal though for a 110V relay.

He also identifies the relay as "110VAC" but apparently (from the fact that there is a rectifier bridge ahead of it) it's actually a 110VDC relay.  In principle a 110VAC relay would not require the rectifier bridge.

Some people also add a Touchtone or rotary dial inside or along-side to be able to dial out. 

It needs to be understood that older receivers and transmitters do not perform as well as modern ones but transmitters tend to be the more deficient of the two and your phone has a replacement transmitter with 1930s vintage transmitter unit inside, which probably will be OK compared to the original turn of the 20th Century types with screw-in funnel "mouthpieces".

Older receivers sound pretty good if the magnets are still strong but speech level will probably be a little lower than modern ones.  Remove the receiver cap and carefully test how strongly the diaphragm is attracted to the pole pieces to evaluate the condition of the receiver magnets.

It can be made to ring but old ringers draw a lot of power relative to modern ones so while a true telephone company analog phone line can operate 5 modern ringers, getting this to ring would reduce that number by more than one, probably 2 or perhaps even 3 or 4.  If you have FIOS or cable TV phone service most of these services cannot even ring 5 modern phones.

Is there a resistance rating marked on the ringer coils such as "1000", "1600" or "2500" (or "500", "800" or "1250" on each coil)?

Arthur Kill

Quote from: Alex G. Bell on May 24, 2017, 01:32:01 PM
No!  You cannot connect it directly without modification.  You can only connect it as-is through a converter/adapter circuit which you probably will have to hand-build. 

There are circuits for this published on line but I have not looked for links recently so I cannot vouch for what's out there that's "the best" at the moment without searching and I can't spend time doing that at this time. 

I don't know what else is here on CRPF.  Perhaps searching the subject titles will turn something up, but here are a couple of articles which seem to address the problems competently:

http://oldphoneguy.net/local_bat_1.htm
http://atcaonline.com/ringercontrol.html

There may be better component choices than what are shown, especially for the "repeat coil" (archaic telephone industry term for a transformer).

Some people also add a Touchtone or rotary dial inside or along-side to be able to dial out. 

It needs to be understood that older receivers and transmitters do not perform as well as modern ones but transmitters tend to be the more deficient of the two and your phone has a replacement transmitter with 1930s vintage transmitter unit inside, which probably will be OK compared to the original turn of the 20th Century types with screw-in funnel "mouthpieces".

Older receivers sound pretty good if the magnets are still strong but speech level will probably be a little lower than modern ones.  Remove the receiver cap and carefully test how strongly the diaphragm is attracted to the pole pieces to evaluate the condition of the receiver magnets.

It can be made to ring but old ringers draw a lot of power relative to modern ones so while a true telephone company analog phone line can operate 5 modern ringers, getting this to ring would reduce that number by more than one, probably 2 or perhaps even 3 or 4.  If you have FIOS or cable TV phone service most of these services cannot even ring 5 modern phones.

Is there a resistance rating marked on the ringer coils such as "1000", "1600" or "2500" (or "500", "800" or "1250" on each coil)?

Understood.

And thanks again for the enlightenment.

I'll do some digging and see what I come up with.  I don't care about dialing out but it would be a real hoot to answer an antique/wooden wall phone while hanging out with friends in my man-cave.

I do indeed have FiOS and never knew about the ringer limit -- I have 8 or 9 phones in the house but have the ringers shut off on most of the modern ones and bypassed on at least two of the 3 old style phones -- though I don't know if that even counts or what it really means.  Obviously, I need to do some more research.

I'll keep you posted and thanks again!!

;D

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: Arthur Kill on May 24, 2017, 02:02:32 PM
Understood.

And thanks again for the enlightenment.

I'll do some digging and see what I come up with.  I don't care about dialing out but it would be a real hoot to answer an antique/wooden wall phone while hanging out with friends in my man-cave.

I do indeed have FiOS and never knew about the ringer limit -- I have 8 or 9 phones in the house but have the ringers shut off on most of the modern ones and bypassed on at least two of the 3 old style phones -- though I don't know if that even counts or what it really means.  Obviously, I need to do some more research.

I'll keep you posted and thanks again!!

;D
You're welcome.

"Bypassed" does not mean anything to me.  Conventional ringers are normally "disconnected" to remove them electrically or blocked mechanically using the volume control to silence them temporarily.

If you like the idea of impressing your friends by answering a magneto phone maybe you're within the target demographic for one of those full size handsets that plug into an iPhone.  But how important is it really to impress total strangers on the street?

By all means, keep us posted on your progress.

unbeldi

The ringer looks like a Kellogg part also.   78-D is catalog number for a 1600 Ω straight-line ringer, that was used on bridged magneto circuits.

I think 4-bar hand generators were used by Kellogg in switchboards, but I have not seen them with those metal strips partly covering two bars each.  The connection terminals also resemble Kellogg parts.   Perhaps the metal strips are part of the mounting bracket to fix the generator securely against the back wall.

The box was definitely a two compartment unit, and the original generator was mounted on the shelf, now removed.  A new hole was drilled for the handle.

The two-color (black-white or slate) wiring looks like Kellogg switchboard wire as well, especially by the distance and lack of focus.

Perhaps this was a remanufactured piece produced by the Kellogg remanufacturing business, officially named the Rebuilding and Repair Division, that was formed in Kansas City, I believe, in the early 1940s for fulfilling needs during the wartime period of shortages and manufacturing stoppage.

Arthur Kill

Moth piece stamped "Patented in USA Nov 192"

Yep, definitely just "192" as opposed to a year from the 20's as I suspected as well -- I googled it and got one hit which was an ad for a candlestick phone.  The ad writer was just annotating what he saw and there was no information.

My experience (qas a hobbyist) with polarity is that some phones have it and others don't -- but yeah, if any TT doesn't out, I'll right-away reverse.

The earpiece (receiver, damnit) has one big hole and the speaker itself has 3 -- odd, right?  Here's some pics:




unbeldi

Quote from: Arthur Kill on May 26, 2017, 10:46:31 AM
Moth piece stamped "Patented in USA Nov 192"

Yep, definitely just "192" as opposed to a year from the 20's as I suspected as well -- I googled it and got one hit which was an ad for a candlestick phone.  The ad writer was just annotating what he saw and there was no information.


NOV 1 92

That  means November 1, 1892.

It is the White patent for the solid-back transmitter by the American Bell Telephone Company.

ThePillenwerfer

That receiver is a British GPO 4T, a type that came out in 1959.

The "HAA 67/1" means it was made by Automatic Telephone & Electrical Co, Liverpool (which became part of Plessey) in January 1967.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: unbeldi on May 26, 2017, 11:35:07 AM
NOV 1 92

That  means November 1, 1892.

It is the White patent for the solid-back transmitter by the American Bell Telephone Company.
That date is on the transmitter cup, not the transmitter itself.  The transmitter is a later type unitized transmitter (containing a transmitter unit) with integral mouthpiece rather than an original solid back type with separate MP. 

It's easiest to ID these by their profiles but I don't see a good profile photo however it looks like a Kellogg or perhaps S-C, not a WECO 635 or AE-41 type.  A profile photo with the transmitter unit removed and shown would nail this.

Magneto phones are not polarity sensitive since magneto lines normally do not have DC voltage on them.  However on grounded ringing party lines ringer operation would be affected by flipping the line.

Alex G. Bell

Quote from: ThePillenwerfer on May 26, 2017, 01:06:41 PM
That receiver is a British GPO 4T, a type that came out in 1959.

The "HAA 67/1" means it was made by Automatic Telephone & Electrical Co, Liverpool (which became part of Plessey) in January 1967.
Good!, but actually, that's the receiver UNIT.  The receiver SHELL and cap are Kellogg.  The cap is the dead giveaway, distinctive by the notches around the front face rim.  Receiver caps are rarely interchangeable between mfrs. 

It would originally have contained a long magnet, coil and diaphragm assembly but has been modernized to improve performance, probably just shoved in there with padding to keep it from rattling rather than having proper pressure spring contacts most receiver units require, though some later ones have screw terminals.

The choice of a GPO rec. unit might say something about whose hands this phone passed through to get the way it is today.  A GPO rec. unit would be quite rare in the US but less so in Canada.

19and41

Nice find!  if there were a pile like that on my street, it would be flattened out and strewn across creation before the day was out.   :D
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
— Arthur C. Clarke