Subset Questions / WE 51-AL phone

[winkydink]

I have a few questions to the forum regarding subsets, what exactly they do and the differences between the various models.

I am looking to purchase a subset for what I believe is a Western Electric Model 51-AL phone.  The reason why I say "I believe" is because on the neck where the joint is connecting the mouth piece to the base there is the numbers 20AL with an overstrike through it (This may have been re-used by WE in building this phone or replaced later on (but then why the overstrike?))

In any case the rest of the phone from all appearances seems to be a Model 51 AL. 

A few questions.

• What Exactly does a subset do for the phone besides provide a ringer?
• What model subset did the phone originally come with?
• What model subset will work with the phone
• What is the difference between side-tone and anti side-tone?
• I am sure this was originally a side-tone model.  Where these type of phones ever upgraded to anti-sidetone?
• Approximately how much do the subset sell for other than ebay?  Who currently has them for sale (I have seen some)
• If I purchase over ebay, what should I be looking for (other than the words "This has been tested and works")

Non subset questions:

• I have a little bit of paint spattering on the body of the phone.  Is there an easy and safe way to remove this without taking off the underlying black paint of the body?
• How difficult is it to replace the felt on the bottom of the phone.  Are there any links to this proceedure?

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Winkydink

[BDM]

Yup, over-strike means it's been re-used, usually to the next model up. Bottom line, there are two different subsets. Sidetone & anti-sidetone. In those, there were different coil/networks changes and upgrades. I believe there were only two different anti-sidetone network coils used, not counting the 425A/B networks. I can't go into the different models right now being at work. Maybe someone else will elaborate further.

[bingster]

• What Exactly does a subset do for the phone besides provide a ringer?

Those of us who are into old radios, too, are fond of telling new folks that a good ground is the other half of their antenna.  It's the same with subsets--it's the other half of the telephone.  A subset contains the ringer, but more importantly it contains the induction coil which sends the proper voltages to the different parts of the phone.

• What model subset did the phone originally come with?

It could have come with several of the wooden subsets with exposed bells, and later, the metal box 534/584 subset

• What model subset will work with the phone

Same as above.  But remember that using an anti-sidetone subset with a sidetone phone won't give you an anti-sidetone phone.  The only phone that's contradictory to this is the B-mount/102.

• What is the difference between side-tone and anti side-tone?

Sidetone is the amplification in the receiver of sound coming into the transmitter of the same phone, whether it's noise in the room or your own voice. Anti-sidetone is the suppression of that distracting effect.

• I am sure this was originally a side-tone model.  Where these type of phones ever upgraded to anti-sidetone?

They may have been upgraded by Western Electric.  Any anti-sidetone model will be a three digit number starting with 1, for example, 120AL, 140AL, 151AL.  The switchhook contacts in a sidetone desk stand are insufficient to allow for true anti-sidetone, but the sidetone effect can be reduced by moving a wire in the subset.

• Approximately how much do the subset sell for other than ebay?  Who currently has them for sale (I have seen some)

All of them that I've seen for sale on other websites tend to go for outrageous amounts like $150 or more.   Many websites only sell one as part of a phone/subset package, though.

• If I purchase over ebay, what should I be looking for (other than the words "This has been tested and works")

Look for missing parts.  Each subset should contain a ringer assembly, a condenser, and an induction coil/network.  If you're looking at a 684 subset with a plastic cover, make sure the cover isn't damaged.  They're frequently cracked or have chunks missing around the vents. The 684 commands higher prices because it's smaller and has a lower profile than the metal box subsets, making it very popular.

Non subset questions:

• I have a little bit of paint spattering on the body of the phone.  Is there an easy and safe way to remove this without taking off the underlying black paint of the body?

I've used a fingernail, and occasionally a carefully placed razor blade edge to pop paint flecks from paint roller spatter. There are probably any number of ways to do it, though.

• How difficult is it to replace the felt on the bottom of the phone.  Are there any links to this proceedure?

It's a piece of cake.  You just pull the metal retainer ring from the inside of the base, position the felt, push the ring back in to clamp the felt in place, then trim the excess.

[winkydink]

• What model subset did the phone originally come with?

It could have come with several of the wooden subsets with exposed bells, and later, the metal box 534/584 subset

• What model subset will work with the phone

Same as above.  But remember that using an anti-sidetone subset with a sidetone phone won't give you an anti-sidetone phone.  The only phone that's contradictory to this is the B-mount/102.

I see various places on the net as well as ebay, Western Electric Candlestick phones with the following subsets

• 634A
• 534A
• 584A
• 684
• 685A

Will any of these work.  Is it just a matter of wiring the phone or subset differently.

Additionally, I have seen that a model 302 phone can be converted to a subset.  Would this also work for the 51AL ?

[BDM]

• 634A
Larger metal cabinet anti-sidetone


• 534A
Same as above, but a sidetone network


• 584A
Ditto, sidetone subset


• 684
Smaller, plastic cased cabinet body, anti-sidetone using the #101 network(same as the 302)


• 685A
425A/B network

This is all going off memory, so someone correct me if I'm wrong anywhere. Besides the #101 network coil/transformer, there is a previous anti-sidetone coil #146 I believe. The sidetone counterpart is a #46 coil. As mentioned earlier, the added "1" denotes anti-sidetone.

[winkydink]

Comment and a questions

It appears that the older candlesticks used sidetone type subsets.  I will try to purchase this type of subset.

Question:
Even with the above comment: Can I use an anti-sidetone subset with a "sidetone" type phone ? 

Will it do the phone harm ?  Is it compatible ?


I am not trying to convert a sidetone to an anti sidetone, I just want to know if I can safely use one or if it will do harm to the phone, or just not work at all.

I understand the concept of sidetone and anti-sidetone now, but since I see out on the "net" that people are using both type of subsets for 50AL and 51AL, I am curious if this is acceptable.

[BDM]

Yes, you can use an anti-sidetone in sidetone operation. But, as mentioned in Bing's post. It will not give you anti-sidetone operation without the correct/proper connections of the phone itself. And the desk stand needs to be both wired and have the proper switch hook connections for anti-sidetone operation.

[winkydink]

Hello Again.

I have some fresh pictures and questions regarding the wiring of my candlestick phone and associated subset.

First off let me appologize regarding the size of the images.  I am not in a location right now where I can photo reduce the images, but if it becomes a problem I will delete this post and resubmit the images.  Please click on the individual images to see more detail.

As a reminder, I have what I believe to be a WE 50-AL or 51-AL it has a 2AB dial and the wire from the phone to the subset is 3 conductor.

I have aquired a WE 534A "hybrid" subset.  I say hybrid, because a previous owner removed the original bells and replaced them with what looks like the ringer assembly from a 302 (Anyone know where I can find a compatible bell assembly for the 534A subset?).  But initially, as long as it works and rings, I am not too concerned about that, and will deal with that later.

This looks to be in great cosmetic shape (except for the aformentioned ringers).  On the back cover of the subset is a wiring diagram.  I have also shown the wiring of the base of the phone, and a picture of the 3 separate conductors (wires) coming from the phone.

If you look at the picture of the wiring in the base of the phone, it looks like the following are the wire colors:  Orange stripe is YELLOW.  Green Stripe is Green.  Pink stripe is Red.

Now looking at the (somewhat faded) wires at the end of the cord coming from the phone.  The top wire is Orange == YELLOW,  Middle wire is Pink == RED, bottom wire is Green == GREEN.

Please now look at the picture of the wiring diagram (from the inside cover) and the photo of the inside of the subset.  Notice that on the diagram all the screw post are shown on top of the condenser.  However on the actual subset, they are split between the top of the condenser and the left/right sides of the induction coil.  Does this seem correct ??

Here are some questions:

• Is it OK to hook the wires up (for example red from the phone to the R post on the side of the induction coil, since there is no post for Red on the top of the condenser
• Is the ringer wired up properly?
• Is the inside of the phone wired up properly?
• The wiring diagram shows the line that goes from the subset to the wall (don't know the proper term) as L1, GND (ground?) and Y (yellow).  What colors does this correspond to ? Do I need 3 or 4 conductor line for this hookup?
• As you can see in the inside of the subset photo, I have an unattached wire.  Does anyone have an idea where this should be hooked up to?
• Asside from a Marking on the neck of the phone (mine has a 20AL overstrike), is there any way to tell what type of phone this is 50AL or 51AL ?
• Where can I find original bells and is there a part # etc that I should look for (low priority, but I would like to know for future reference)
• Will I ever run out of questions?

Thanks again for the forums help.

[bingster]

> Is it OK to hook the wires up (for example red from the phone to the R post on the side of the induction coil, since there is no post for Red on the top of the condenser
Yep, that's where it goes.

> Is the ringer wired up properly?  Is the inside of the phone wired up properly?
It appears they are, but the sure test is to try it out.

> The wiring diagram shows the line that goes from the subset to the wall (don't know the proper term) as L1, GND (ground?) and Y (yellow).  What colors does this correspond to ? Do I need 3 or 4 conductor line for this hookup?
The wire that goes from the baseboard to the subset is just the house station wire. It usually contains three or four conductors.  Older station wire is red/green/yellow, modern station wire is red/green/yellow/black.  You only need to connect the red and green:  Red to Y-L2, Green to L1.

> As you can see in the inside of the subset photo, I have an unattached wire.  Does anyone have an idea where this should be hooked up to?
That goes to Y-L2.

> Where can I find original bells and is there a part # etc that I should look for (low priority, but I would like to know for future reference)
Ebay is a good source for cheap ringers.  Just look for a two-wire hookup (rather than four), and it looks just like the ringer in the subset's diagram.  The ringer you have now may very well have been put there by the phone company to replace an older ringer that went dead. 

>  Notice that on the diagram all the screw post are shown on top of the condenser.  However on the actual subset, they are split between the top of the condenser and the left/right sides of the induction coil.  Does this seem correct ??
Absolutely.  All subsets went through several revisions, whereby older components were replaced by more modern components.  They're all "correct,"  even though the terminals may be in different places on each version.  Just look for the correctly marked terminals, whether they're on the terminal board or the induction coil.

[BDM]

Most likely someone else replaced it. Ma Bell typically would have upgraded the whole network to anti-sidetone at the time of repair, not just the ringer. No biggie though. Thanks for posting that first pic. I've often wondered what the connection sticker looked like, as the one in my subset just seemed to fade away.

[bingster]

That's a great photo for me too.  It's the first clear diagram of a 534 that I've come across.

[Dan/Panther]

Can that diagram be made available in Hi Res ?

Bingster;
Replacing the felt on the bottom, how do you keep it tight while putting on the ring, don't you get bulges ?
D/P
Any special type felt?

[bingster]

I've never replaced the felt on a phone, but I've replaced the felt on the base of a 1920s GE fan, which was held in place the same way.  It's not difficult, but you do have to work the felt, pulling it tighter at certain points, spreading it in others, to get it right.  Start at one side and work your way around, and you'll get it. 

Here's the subset image, straightened and clarified slightly.  Click on it to get the biggest size:

[winkydink]

Here's the subset image, straightened and clarified slightly.  Click on it to get the biggest size:

That is a nice cleaned up version of the photo ! Great job.  If this is not adequate, let me know and I will take a more straight-on photo of the wiring diagram.  At the time I just needed something quick and dirty to show the forum.

Merry Christmas all.  I hope Santa leaves you some nice phones in your stockings.

[bingster]

If this is not adequate, let me know and I will take a more straight-on photo of the wiring diagram.  At the time I just needed something quick and dirty to show the forum.

Well... Since you offered...

Straight on isn't all that important, but if you can get a really sharp image, that would be brilliant.