51AL Candlestick half way transformed into a lamp, Keep or Return?

[Jack]

Hello,
I recently purchased what I believe to be a 51AL Candlestick from ebay that (much to my surprise), had been used as a high voltage electrical switch, possibly as a lamp. The receiver is missing, and the dial is a 5h.
I was wondering if A) It looks authentic, and B) I should refurbish it or return it (price was ~160).
I'll attach some pictures:

Transmitter:






Receiver:




Dial:



Body:

[LarryInMichigan]

Jack,

I am not convinced that the phone is authentic.  It may be a Korean copy.  At any rate, I do not think that it is worth $160, so, if you can get a refund, I would suggest doing that.  Others here may disagree.

Larry

[Jack]

Jack,

I am not convinced that the phone is authentic.  It may be a Korean copy.  At any rate, I do not think that it is worth $160, so, if you can get a refund, I would suggest doing that.  Others here may disagree.

Larry

Thanks for the reply Larry,
This is my first candlestick so I'm having trouble determining its authenticity. I had read this post Link regarding the authenticity of telephones and it looks like everything matches. However, what concerns me is the inside of the receiver which looks like a more modern casting, and the lettering on the back of the receiver which seems more rough than it should, but I could be mistaken on both counts.

Here is the link to the original auction which has some more pictures Link   ( dead link 12-06-21 )

If it turns out it actually is a fake I will most definitely return it by using paypal's buyer protection, since if anything, the item is not complete as it was missing the transmitter element.

Is there anything else I should look into to determine authenticity?

I figure that to make it work all I need to do is get one of those transmitter combos that they sell on oldphoneworks, and hook it up to a network...

Thanks,
Jack

[Dennis Markham]

Jack, I think there was a posting recently about these reproduction sticks with the writing on the back of the transmitter cup.  I'm sure one of the other guys will weigh in on this.  I have no expertise in them but the photo you posted sure looks like one of those repos.  I'll see if I can find it and if so will post the link here.  Meanwhile I'm sure someone else will also comment.

[Dennis Markham]

Jack, have you looked at this?

http://www.oldphoneman.com/Fakes.htm

[Jack]

I literally was just reading about it just now. I really couldn't find anything there that would indicate that it is a fake, except for the fact that all fakes are 51al's, but not that all 51al's are fakes

I did find this searching the forums though:

Uh oh.  A 151AL shouldn't have anything on the back of it's transmitter cup. 

As a clue, "American Bell Telephone Company" is AT&T's original parent, and the name wasn't used after 1899, if I'm not mistaken.  Reproductions, though, almost always use the "American Bell" name.

But oldphoneman doesn't mention anything about it, although he does caution about Dec 1910, which this one does not say...

[bingster]

I'm not so sure about this one.  The transmitter cup doesn't look right, but the rest of it looks good to me (although very clean).  I've never seen a repro perch with a strike-out like this one has, and the receiver is a correctly marked original 706A.  The shaft retainer appears to be the correct material and has age to it, too.  I dunno.

This might be hard to judge, but does the hookswitch pop up quickly, or do the springs seem "soft" and slow to raise up?  Can you show a photo of the rivet on the hookswitch, and also the markings on the front edge of the base?

[HarrySmith]

I am not a candlestick expert but, in my opinion that is too much money for an incomplete stick even if they are not repro parts.

[Doug Rose]

Jack...the brass WE 5H dial is the real deal, these are nice brass dials made in the first two months of 1949 from excess brass from the was effort. What is the transmitter number on the front, it is blinded by the flash. Bakelite MP have a star in the center, hard to tell with the flash. The dial is the real, the handset looks like a later WE receiver, the transmitter cup is awfully clean as is the base. Without better pictures, my vote is for a fake. How much did you spend? $160, way too much for this. The dial is a tough find, worth around $50 in working condition. Brass dials really dress up brass sticks  ....Doug

[Jack]

@Kidphone: here is a better picture of the mouthpiece: [EDIT] It does have a star and the numbers 337 underneath.


@HarrySmith:
The phone is complete, except for the transmitting element, although as others have said, I probably did overpay, but it seems to be along the selling prices for dialed candlesticks on ebay (probably not the best place to get bargains on these things).

[Russ Kirk]

IMHO I would call this a frankenphone,  some good old parts (brass dial and starred mouthpiece) mixed with Korean parts (other brass).  The first 'red flag" that comes to mind is the brass base, shaft and transmitter. When I run across all-brass sticks I find 99% of the time they are reproductions. Brass that old should have a nice toned patina - not shiny.   The receiver and other parts show NO signs of wear; on an original phone the items should show some aging.  

This is one reason I am very weary of some phones from eBay.  There are a lot of very good and honest sellers on eBay, some of them are actively on this board.

Russ

[Doug Rose]

Agreed.....it is  Frankenphone, transmitter plate and bakelite mouth piece look real, as does the great dial and the later version receiver. After that, I think it is all repro. As Russ said, it should not have that shine to it, especially on the inside. If you spent $160, you sent way to much, if ~160 means pounds and not dollars, you REALLY spent way too much. This is just my opinion,,,,Doug

[Dan/Panther]

I think a parts phone. Internally some parts are way too clean, and other parts are  original, but the internal stuff looks repro.
D/P

[wds]

Or you could just take the clean shiny parts and set them in the back yard for the winter.  Next spring - presto  - antique phone.

[Sargeguy]

I think its a frankenphone as well.  I don't think shine is a good indicator of age as old candlesticks are being brassed out all the time, and brass isn't an original finish.  The parts may not be Korean repro, but possibly from one of the other sources?  The dial is nice, but keep in mind that the 164A dial plate did not come into service until after the vast majority of candlesticks had been phased out.  Its a red flag on a candlestick.