I have a brother-in-law who often gets old radios or, in this case, a reproduction "French" phone thrown in with an auction lot he is bidding on. He gave me this phone shown below he won in a lot of items recently. The phone appears to be a 1970's era Japanese reproduction. I don't really know much about it, but the dial is very stiff.
I probably won't get to this for a while due to other projects on the bench.
This appears to have been modified with Western Electric parts. That is a Western Electric dial.
Interesting. I will post more photos with info on the parts inside when I get a chance to get into it.
Quote from: poplar1 on November 27, 2017, 11:05:09 PM
This appears to have been modified with Western Electric parts. That is a Western Electric dial.
I dismantled one of these (the exact same model) several years ago. All of the electrical parts were WE, including the 4010 network.
Larry
So it should be a decent working phone once I get it restored?
Quote from: Ed Morris on November 28, 2017, 03:51:08 PM
So it should be a decent working phone once I get it restored?
It should be, but it still won't be worth much.
Larry
IIRC what I was told several years ago when I had a customer who collected the original European models of these they were imported by the ton back in the 80's. Dials were added and they were updated for use in the US. They can be found with parts from any manufacturer in them depending on who did the update & where they were updated.
Quote from: HarrySmith on November 28, 2017, 05:22:39 PM
IIRC what I was told several years ago when I had a customer who collected the original European models of these they were imported by the ton back in the 80's. Dials were added and they were updated for use in the US. They can be found with parts from any manufacturer in them depending on who did the update & where they were updated.
Oh well. In that case, never mind.
Larry
Now I'm confused. Is this a European phone modified in Japan with WECO parts or a Japanese reproduction using WECO parts?
It's a Japanese replica of a Danish phone. It apparently may or may not have WE parts inside.
Larry
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on November 28, 2017, 08:49:58 PM
It's a Japanese replica of a Danish phone. It apparently may or may not have WE parts inside.
Larry
This was offered by unbeldi a few years ago (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13771.msg144142#msg144142) about these phones:
"The original design of these phones is based on the Danish company KTAS and goes back to the around 1908 or so. That original model was something like 'D-08' and those were built for a long time, so that the parts were reused and new variants created by many after-market sellers. In Denmark, Expoga (spelling?) also modernized the design. Eventually, these phones were newly mass-produced in Japan primarily for the American market after it became legal to install a privately own phone, but can be found also in Europe. They are usually marked DO-8 , JN-4, US-4, and perhaps others."
You guys have gotten my curiosity aroused so now I'm going to have to peek inside this phone!
Quote from: TelePlay on November 28, 2017, 09:00:58 PM
This was offered by unbeldi a few years ago (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=13771.msg144142#msg144142) about these phones:
"The original design of these phones is based on the Danish company KTAS and goes back to the around 1908 or so. That original model was something like 'D-08' and those were built for a long time, so that the parts were reused and new variants created by many after-market sellers. In Denmark, Expoga (spelling?) also modernized the design. Eventually, these phones were newly mass-produced in Japan primarily for the American market after it became legal to install a privately own phone, but can be found also in Europe. They are usually marked DO-8 , JN-4, US-4, and perhaps others."
That sounds like what I was told more or less. The customer I had collected the original DO-8 models. Some of them were very nice, they had things like silk cords and real gold plated parts. I was impressed by the construction, very well built and very neat. The hand wrapped wiring & harnesses for example, there were no lugs on the wires, the stranded wire was braided into a loop to go around the screws and the cloth insulation threads were wrapped around the ends, very nice work.
The Danish D08s were imported in large quantities to the USA, so they are not especially difficult to find for cheap. I have on in great condition. They are not generally in quite original condition as they were refurbished for sale in the USA. These phones are very heavy.
Larry
Well, I won't be restoring this phone for a while. I took a peek inside, and the phone has been gutted :(. The only parts left are the receiver, transmitter, and dial. I didn't pull the dial to see if what type it is.
Bummer! It would probably be easy to get working. Just add a ringer & network from a 500!
That's a disappointment. The trickiest part will be the hook switch. I might have some of the parts from my phone lying around in the mess in the dungeon. I can keep an eye out for them.
Larry
Hook switch might be there; I didn't look that carefully. I am trying to fix a radio for a client, so I won't be able to work on it for a while.
I've always said, "Even if it's free, there's always a price to pay!", shame it's gutted, but as pointed out, with a few salvaged bits & pieces from another phone will bring it back to life, even if it's not original... :)
I may have some pieces for it also. I will check over the weekend.
I had forgotten that I bought a Japanese D-08 replica a few years ago from an ebay seller in Chicago for $4 or $5 when I went to his apartment to pick up another phone. That replica has all Japanese parts, and I used its transmitter in a Japanese #4 phone which had a bad transmitter. I am attaching a picture of the inside of the all Japanese phone next to the remains of the phone which had WE internal parts. I can probably spare the WE plate with the hook switch. It originally had a 4010 network and a small ringer, probably the type that is found in Princesses.
Larry
Larry, thanks for the images. My hook switch is definitely missing. There is nothing left inside the phone except one bracket and the dial mechanism. My phone is a JN-4, according to the label. If you think your plate and hookswitch will work, I'd be interested in it. Just let me know your price. I should be able to pick up the network and a ringer on eBay. Below are images of my base and dial.
Cleaning day today. I disassembled the phone and washed all the metal parts and handset cord in Simple Green. The brass parts I soaked in white vinegar for a couple hours, then cleaned all the old lacquer off with 0000 steel wool. I will apply clear lacquer to the brass parts before re-assembly.
Larry was kind enough to part with a spare hook switch plate, and I snagged a Princess 702B from the Goodwill online site, which I am still waiting on, but hopefully when it gets here, I will get it all put back together and working.
That phone will look sharp when built/rebuilt/restored into a working phone - a Back from the Dead nomination (haven't had one of those in a long time).
Take inside and exterior photos when done.
Hmm...a zombie phone ::). Apparently this phone was an "organ donor" at some point. Now it's getting new "organs." The circle of life...
Quote from: Ed Morris on December 04, 2017, 01:32:56 PM
Hmm...a zombie phone ::). Apparently this phone was an "organ donor" at some point. Now it's getting new "organs." The circle of life...
Ed, check out this site to see what others have done to return a phone to the living.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17486.0
My Princess 702B donor arrived and it looks like I'm going to have to do some modifications to get the ringer and network installed.
The ringer mounts on the hook switch plate, to the right of the hook switch in the image below, are too far apart for the Princess ringer, and wouldn't match up with the slot for the bell volume slider anyway. It looks like I could remove the two stanchions on the right edge of the place and have room to mount of ringer and align the volume slider with the slot. Anyone see any reason not to remove those stanchions. I don't see where the are needed for this phone.
The 4010 network appears to be riveted to the Princess base, so I will have to devise a means of mounting it to the plate on the JN-4 as well, but it looks like there is plenty of room on the left side.
You will need to drill out the rivets and attach the network to the bracket with small screws. I don't recall what type of ringer was in the phone when I got it.
Larry
I do not recall what those were for but they are tapped for a screw so something must have been there. Possibly the dial mount?? I would assemble the base and check before removing them. Of course they may be for something you are no longer using. Glad you found parts as I did not find any in my pile of C.R.A.P.
(Communications Related Accessories & Parts)
Harry, thanks for checking for parts.
The dial mounts to the base and there is a bracket across the center that the cover and handset mount attaches to, so I don't think they are needed. But I may just remove the one that is riveted first and see if I can fit the ringer in. I could always re-attach it if needed.
Great idea! It is always wise to make changes that are reversible!
Could we have a moment of silence for the little Princess who gave her life for another... ::)
I am sorry that I cannot remember and have no pictures of how the components were attached to the plate before I dismantled things. All that I do remember is that a 4010 network was attached somehow and that there was a ringer on the other side. it is almost a wonder that I remembered having the phone in the first place.
Someone here must have one of these lying around.
Larry
I don't know whether the earlier 581A bases had M-type (Princess ) ringers. By 1974 they had P-type (Trimline) ringers:
This photo is in 1978 (BSP 503-100-120 Issue 4)
I think that the broken rivets in the base used to hold 'L' brackets which held the 4010 network. Were P-type ringers in existence in early 1968 when this base was made?
Larry
I think it will all fit together. The plate is definitely designed for the 4010 network as it matches up perfectly with the screw holes. I've drilled new holes for the ringer and it should fit fine, and the slider can be accessed through the slot in the base. I have'nt attached either yet, but will work on it more tomorrow.
Quote from: LarryInMichigan on December 05, 2017, 06:21:06 PM
I think that the broken rivets in the base used to hold 'L' brackets which held the 4010 network. Were P-type ringers in existence in early 1968 when this base was made?
Larry
P-type ringers were used in Trimlines from the beginning (1965?)...however, they were not used in Princess phones until 1981. I don't know if they were ever used in Decorator phones such as this one.
I removed the threaded studs the ringer attaches to on the Princess base plate and J-B Welded them to the JN-4 plate. I also had to remove two bumps in the plate that were too high for the Princess ringer. I just drilled them out, and I still need to clean up the one near the edge (see first photo). I will let the J-B Weld set overnight before attaching the ringer and network.
While waiting for the J-B Weld to set, I hooked up the network and ringer to a Sage 930 and tested the ringer, and it works fine.
Well, things are coming together, I hope. I tapped the mounting holes for the 4010 network for 4-40 screws and mounted the network on Larry's plate. The threaded studs I attached to the plate with J-B Weld had cured, so I installed the ringer.
I connected the ringer, and the wires from the hookswitch to the network. The leads from the hook switch on the base plate were the same colors as those on the Princess hook switch, so I connected them according to the 702B schematic. If the lead colors are standardized, then I should be good to go on the hook switch and ringer.
The dialer may be a problem. The leads from the Princess 8A dial are white-white-blue-green. The JN-4 dialer leads are white-white-red-black. I've connected the dialer leads as I think they should be, but won't be sure it's right until I can test everything. I'm still working on restoring the handset, so I won't be able to test until tomorrow.
Good job! Looks great! I am sure one of our wiring experts will chime in on the dial wiring shortly.
Black from BL of dial to F on network
Red from G of dial to RR on network
White from BK of dial to R on network
White from R of dial to GN on network
This is for a 6T, 6U, F-53360 or F-53361 dial
Thanks, Poplar1. I had red and black correct, but the white leads reversed. I hope to finish up tomorrow, and see if it works. I will post the results
Bummer! The hookswitch is bad. I got it all back together and plugged it into a phone line, lifted the receiver, and nothing. So I plugged it in to the Sage 930, and I could see that it was not going off-hook when I lifted the receiver.
I was pretty confident that I had wired it up correctly, so I disconnected all the leads from the hookswitch and wired in the hookswitch from the donor Princess phone, and everything worked perfectly. I get a good dial tone and the phone dials out, the ringer works.
So...do I try and figure out what is wrong with the hookswitch, or use the hookswitch from the Princess phone? It is not going to work without some extensive modifications, but I think it could be done. Has anyone fixed one of these hookswitches before?
OK, not the hookswitch, it is fine. The problem is a mechanical adjustment. The plunger isn't letting the hookswitch come up enough when the handset is lifted, so I should be able to adjust it.
Now I'm getting frustrated :-\. I got the hookswitch working fine. I put everything back together, and now it won't dial out correctly. When I had the Princess hookswitch temporarily wired in, I was able to dial my cell phone. The phone rings when dialed.
Now, when I try to dial my cell phone, I get a "Number not in service" message, or I get a wrong number. When I check the dialer with the Sage 930 digit receiver, it records the numbers I dial correctly, with no errors. The dial is breaking at 63%-64% on all dialed numbers, although it's a bit slow at 9.2 - 9.3 pps.
Oh well, at least the cosmetic work is done:
Quote from: Ed Morris on December 08, 2017, 06:18:44 PM
Well, things are coming together, I hope. I tapped the mounting holes for the 4010 network for 4-40 screws and mounted the network on Larry's plate. The threaded studs I attached to the plate with J-B Weld had cured, so I installed the ringer.
I connected the ringer, and the wires from the hookswitch to the network. The leads from the hook switch on the base plate were the same colors as those on the Princess hook switch, so I connected them according to the 702B schematic. If the lead colors are standardized, then I should be good to go on the hook switch and ringer.
The dialer may be a problem. The leads from the Princess 8A dial are white-white-blue-green. The JN-4 dialer leads are white-white-red-black. I've connected the dialer leads as I think they should be, but won't be sure it's right until I can test everything. I'm still working on restoring the handset, so I won't be able to test until tomorrow.
I do believe what is pictured here is exactly what I have seen in ATC Mickey Mouse or Snoopy phones with WE Guts. In fact In Mexico I see these phones with both Japanese components and what appear to be WE (or clones thereof right down to markings) that never say WE , NE , nor SC
The last time I saw one of these someone brought me one to repair and it had the same plate. In fact I re-wired it based on the snoopy/Mickey ATC diagram in the TCI library. SOmeone had obviously been in it and some things were completely wrong.
I have one that looks lile it here now but just checked and has Tamara dial and Japanese components.
I have another that "looks" different on the outside but similar plate with WE (clone?) components and Tamara DIal. It says "Made IN Japan" with original sales stickers on bottom in Mexican Pesos.
The F-56662 dial is the problem. Although I cleaned and lubricated the dial mechanism, I get a wrong number or number not in service when I try to dial out. Yet when I test the dial on a BK 1045, the dialed numbers register correctly.
I temporarily disconnected the dial and attached a 8FA dial from a Princess phone in its place, and the phone dials out correctly, so the 4010 network and other components in the JN-4 are OK.
I'm not sure what else I can do to the dial. Too bad the 8FA won't fit. There are some #6 dials on eBay, but I don't know if they will mount in the dial housing of the JN-4. I might be able to adapt one to fit.
Any suggestions? I've got too much time invested now to give up.
Even though it test good on the BK, did you compare the contact operation on the working dial to that of the "bad" dial?
Do the contacts on the "bad" dial open and close in the same order or sequence as the good dial?
Anything reversed which may look good to the BK may send the wrong pulse down the line?
I hope I asked that question to make sense.
John, I have watched the contacts, but I don't have enough experience to really tell much. They appear to make and break correctly. Despite cleaning and lubrication, the dial has a somewhat rough feel to it, and seems a little slow. It may be within the BK 1046 tolerance, but Verizon Fios may not like it.
I will keep working with it though, and do more side by side comparisons of the contacts with the 8FA.
I found a NOS WE 6U dial on eBay. It came in the mail today, and it works perfectly in the JN-4. It wasn't cheap, but since I plan to keep the phone, maybe gift some lucky relative with it, I don't mind.
would it help to have a number you could dial into that would record your dial pulses then download them? You could then open in Audacity and see the duration between pulses. Using this technique i have even been able to see a slight variation between the duration of first two pulses and last two pulses.
I have a few USA numbers that I am not using . The main question is how to "serve up" the files but i can do it manually for now.
Mark
After I replaced the original 6U dial with the new one, I sent the original to Steve Hiltz for repair. I have it back now.