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Dial tone

Started by T65MC80, July 19, 2009, 05:04:02 PM

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T65MC80

More late breaking developments. The phone itself appears to be in working order. Dial tone has been achieved, and I am greatly appreciative of all the assistance that everyone has offered. I believe the primary obstruction was/is the receiver cords, for when I start fiddling with the end that runs to the candlestick, the dial tone and volume fluctuate erratically.

However, things are not quite done yet. I noticed that when I used the dial it returned to the closed position very slowly or not at all so I took it apart, cleaned it, and reassembled it. Now the dial will remain at whatever number I select and will not move back. The most likely answer I can imagine is that the governor needs to be adjusted but I don't know which part exactly. Here are some pics of it and hopefully someone can identify the specific component.

Thirdly, as I was in the process of tinkering earlier this afternoon, the ringer functioned when somebody called the house but now it no longer works. Is this also a wiring issue?

Dennis Markham

There should be more parts to the dial than what you've shown here.  Is that a #2 dial?  I am very familiar with #4's and #2's that were converted to #4's.  But it looks to me like some dial parts are missing. 

benhutcherson

I agree that you're missing some parts. You're missing the shaft through the center of the governor, with a pinion on the end of it, a second gear that meshes both with the governor shaft and center wheel, and the copper bridge that hold both of these gears in place.

Here's what it should look like-this is a #5 dial, but this part is nearly identical to a #2 and #4



The dial staying where you put it is probably a result of not having any tension on the mainspring. Normally, it will wind itself down when you take the dial apart. It will need to be re-tensioned before the dial will work again. This is a simple procedure, but I don't recommend doing it without the full gear train in place. Otherwise, it can unwind fast enough if accidentally let go to break the spring or something else.

Phonesrfun

The best deal in town is Steve Hilsz in Arizona.  He repairs any dial for a very low price.  I forget what it is, but it is very reasonable.  His web site is:  http://www.navysalvage.com/

-Bill
-Bill G

Dennis Markham

Ben, is that a 5E dial----for a switch board?

bingster

#20
I'm assuming the parts aren't missing, but that the dial has been photographed in a state of disassembly.  

Don't adjust the governor.  99% of the time, it's not neccessary, and fiddling with the governor is the surest way to mess up a dial.   Since your dial did return under it's own power at one time (no matter how slowly), that's an indication that the spring is intact.  When you reassemble the dial, you have to wind the center hub in a clockwise direction a couple times before tightening down all the parts.  If you do this, your dial should return, if it's got all it's parts and has been put back together properly (and the governor hasn't been altered).
= DARRIN =



benhutcherson

Dennis,

It's a 5L, which I believe is in fact a switchboard dial.

Some quirks to notice vs a 5H are the plastic cam and "hooked" fingerstop. This particular dial is dated to IV-40, although I have another one from the late '40s that's constructed the same way. I don't think that this one was ever used-it came with a beautiful numbers-only plate also dated to IV-40 that's currently being borrowed by one of my other telephones.

The switch stack is also slightly different from a 5H, and the contacts are labeled differently. My other one is currently on a 151AL stick, where it works fine although the wiring isn't exactly direct.

Although it's not a typical dial, it's close enough to the other 2/4/5 dials to show how they should look, and it was the only dial I had handy that's not currently installed in a phone.

By the way, regarding dial service, I hear that this guy is pretty good too

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=103.0 (shameless plug-feel free to delete, Dennis  :) )

Dennis Markham

Ben, I noticed the curved finger stop and that is why I asked.  Back in April I picked up a #5 and a #4 at the Mason, MI phone show.  I didn't realize until I was on the ride home from the show that I had in fact picked from a box of #5's a 5E which I later learned is a switch board dial.  The stack is different as is the finger stop.  The speed is about twice as fast as the regular 5H dial.  I was given a wiring diagram from Steve Hilsz for wiring it to a 302 for standard use.  It's still sitting on my desk where I set it the day I returned from the show.

I recall you offering your repair services for the dials.  I have been known to do some work on those older dials as well.  However, I don't have any sophisticated equipment for timing them.  I kind of go by the seat of my pants and compare them to other dials. 

bingster

I've got a #4 handy, so here's a (slightly blurry) pic:

By the way, I love those sloping fingerstops.  They're much more comfortable than the standard ones, and I've always wondered why they weren't adopted across the board.
= DARRIN =



T65MC80

#24
Apologies for not displaying the entire dial. I do have all the pieces but I removed a few parts to ensure the full view of the governor. I wish I had read bingster's post before fooling with the governor because now it refuses to move even though the gear that threads through the governor spins. Is this a lubrication issue or something with the governor itself?

benhutcherson

The governor has a ratchet on it that lets it spin when the dial is winding down, but slip and not turn when the dial is being wound.

Remove the shaft from the center of the governor and slide the part circled below to the other side of the hole. Then, put the shaft back. The governor should now work.



To tension the mainspring, remove the switch stack from the back. Then, turn the center wheel about three and a half turns. While holding it in place, drop the top plate back in-the one with the finger on it to keep the dial from winding all the way down. You don't need to screw it back in place at this point.

Now, turn the dial and make sure it will turn all the way around. Make sure it sounds "about right." If not, add another turn of tension. If it stops, don't force it. Let it unwind until it contacts the stop again. Then, make a mental note of where the stop is, and lift the plate out of the way. Let the dial turn until it's just clear of where the stop would be. Then, drop the plate down in. At this point, you can secure it in place with the three screws.

You can now reinstall the switch stack. When you're doing this, pay careful attention to how things line up. You'll notice a small pin on the center of the dial on the bottom-this is supposed to contact part of the switch stack.


T65MC80

I performed the aforementioned steps but the governor still does not budge. It moves if I use my fingers to push it along when the dial mechanism is disassembled. When I try to dial after everything is put together I can move the dial clockwise but it freezes at whatever point I stop.

benhutcherson

I wonder if perhaps you could have a broken mainspring. If you remove the gear train, does the center wheel snap back under its own power?


T65MC80

Yes. After I attained the appropriate amount of tension through winding, the center wheel does travel back to rest position. Would lubrication be a possibility? I neglected to wear gloves while handling the parts and I think my hand oils may have taken off the lubrication.

benhutcherson

After the parts have been cleaned, all of the pivots should be lubricated with just a drop of oil. The dial's robust enough, though, that even with no lubrication, everything should still work.

I haven't worked on a #2 in a while, but I believe that the screw holes that hold the bridge in place are slightly oblong to let you adjust the gear mesh.

Try loosening the bridge screws(don't remove them) and sliding the bridge around a little bit. Set it to about the middle of the two extremes, and see if it works. If it does, experiment with different positions until you find the "sweet spot" where the dial runs right, but is also smooth and quiet.