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FTR 850 (Federal) aka TA-45B/GT

Started by MMikeJBenN27, May 18, 2022, 08:57:17 PM

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MMikeJBenN27

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265298025206

_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3Dcce40dec9c55424683dd723ab7a0289a%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D143660456427%26itm%3D265298025206%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2060778&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.

Does anybody have an idea of what kind of dial this is?

Mike

TelePlay

Looks something like a special made dial for military use - seems to have a MFP vermilion stamp on the back - with a stuck dial. Just my guess.

No finger stop, can't tell if it's missing or not used (looking at the back the stop may be incorporated in the gear train).

Interesting dial I've not seen this dial before. Maybe some long term collector knows what this is and can enlighten us all.

paul-f

John,

With some prompting, you may remember the FTR 850 (Federal), aka TA-45B/GT -- seen in military sets like the Connecticut TP-6. Documented in TM 11-468 SUBSTATION MAINTENANCE (Lower right image - Fig. 32).

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14451.msg150413#msg150413
Visit: paul-f.com         WE  500  Design_Line

.

TelePlay

#3
Thanks, Paul. That topic was posted in 2015. Guess it is missing its finger stop, a strange part to be lost.

Above images from the attached US AAF field manual covering TP 6 telephones (all types) and other related telephonic components used by the Army and Air Force in 1954.

MMikeJBenN27

Quote from: paul-f on May 18, 2022, 10:06:59 PMJohn,

With some prompting, you may remember the FTR 850 (Federal), aka TA-45B/GT -- seen in military sets like the Connecticut TP-6. Documented in TM 11-468 SUBSTATION MAINTENANCE (Lower right image - Fig. 32).

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14451.msg150413#msg150413
Dead on!  Thanks!

Mike

TelePlay

It's back on the market at same price, the same overcharged shipping but a slightly different description.

Now being described as an untested WE 302 dial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265725411720

Can the seller claim the photos counter the WE dial claim so that it can not be returned as being not as described?

"Vintage Western Electric rotary telephone dial MFP 8-50 - Untested"

The images support the seller's  statement of being "untested" in that the missing finger stop and broken pulse cog wheel are visible, if you know what to look for in the images. So broken and missing part won't justify a return for full price and all shipping charges reimbursement.

Seems this seller's claims counter any buyer claim for return other than "changed my mind" which puts the buyer on the hook for shipping charges both ways.

What about the WE dial claim to justify a full return?

MMikeJBenN27

Quote from: TelePlay on June 10, 2022, 07:50:32 AMIt's back on the market at same price, the same overcharged shipping but a slightly different description.

Now being described as an untested WE 302 dial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265725411720

Can the seller claim the photos counter the WE dial claim so that it can not be returned as being not as described?

"Vintage Western Electric rotary telephone dial MFP 8-50 - Untested"

The images support the seller's  statement of being "untested" in that the missing finger stop and broken pulse cog wheel are visible, if you know what to look for in the images. So broken and missing part won't justify a return for full price and all shipping charges reimbursement.

Seems this seller's claims counter any buyer claim for return other than "changed my mind" which puts the buyer on the hook for shipping charges both ways.

What about the WE dial claim to justify a full return?
I would send a message to them informing them.  Tell them that phone collectors are much like car collectors.  "If it isn't my favorite make, it must not be any good", just like Ford vs Chevy, or the Big Three vs AMC.

Mike

TelePlay

#7
The point is those who know phones know this is not a WE dial from the images. Will not buy it.

If someone who doesn't know this isn't a WE dial and buys it based on the seller's claim that it is, can the buyer, after receiving the dial return it under the "not as described" eBay return reason putting the seller on the hook for original and return shipping charges?

Or, does the image trump the incorrect seller description putting the buyer on the hook for original and return shipping.

This seller allows returns. Dial is $20, original shipping is $10 and return shipping is $6. If the description rules the transaction, the buyer ends up paying nothing for the return - gets $20 plus $10 back and seller pays the $6 cost of returning the dial.

If the image rules, the buyer get $20 back but has to pay $6 return shipping.

If description is found to be bad, seller is out $16 but gets the dial back. If the image is considered by eBay as enough to counter the incorrect description, the buyer is out $16 and the seller gets the dial back.

The eBay return process requires the buyer to prove they were wronged to get all their money back. Hard for the buyer to say they were wronged by the description when the image clearly shows what will be shipped.

Image overrules description or description overrules image?

The seller in the listing states the dial can be returned, the seller has to take it back. The reason for the return determines who pays all the shipping. Bad description but photos clearly show that. Who pays the $16 shipping?

TelePlay

These are the current reasons for returning a purchase on eBay.

Use any of the 3 that indicate the seller was at fault and both a description of the issues and supporting pictures are REQUIRED.

Use any of the 6 that indicate the buyer bought the wrong item and no description or images are required.

Seller at fault, seller pays all shipping costs. Buyer mid-ordered, buyer pays all shipping costs.

Who's at fault if seller uses an incorrect description but attaches accurate images?

If a part is missing in the images, can the buyer claim missing parts in the return reason and not have to pay all shipping?

tubaman

As the seller doesn't accept returns I think you'd only be able to use 'arrived damaged', 'missing parts or pieces', 'item is defective', or 'received wrong item' to reject it. The others are for when a seller has put that they accept returns. At least that's the case here in the UK.
If it'd been me I'd have listed it as 'for parts or not working' rather than 'used', as under eBay policy 'used' should still be complete and working.
In reality the majority that buy this type of thing know pretty much what they are getting, and as long as nothing has been hidden in the pictures or description are content with what they get.
Quite often mis-described items like this are what helps us collectors get a bargain.
 :)

FABphones

#10
I have never seen that drop down box option, can more than one selection be made?

In this instance Missing Parts or Pieces would apply. Item is certainly Defective.

Not As Described would cover the WE claim by the seller. Same if the received item does not look as in the seller listing images. IRRC the seller has to accept returns (in the U.K. at least - long distance selling laws).

The missing finger stop is an easy spot, but the broken pulse cog wheel is something many of us would have missed.
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones'   ...and a Duck!
***********
Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble
*************

tubaman

Quote from: FABphones on June 11, 2022, 04:10:31 AM... IRRC the seller has to accept returns (in the U.K. at least - long distance selling laws).
...

I'm pretty sure those regulations only apply to business sellers in the UK.

TelePlay

Yes, while the description is wrong, the seller has fully disclosed the missing finger stop, the hard to spot but fully visible broken pulse cog wheel and then further covered themselves by stating it is "untested," meaning "it's not on me if it doesn't work."

The $16 question is if you buy this dial, receive this dial, discover the broken cog wheel clearly shown in the photo (but only if you have sharp enough eyes to spot the partial cog wheel), can you then claim "item received broken" for a full reimbursement return, get $30 back instead of $14?

The broken part and missing part are shown in the listing photos. To claim broken part, the less obvious but not hidden defect as the reason for return, a picture showing the broken part would have to be uploaded to eBay to show the damage but then the seller could contest the claim (and save $16) by saying the broken part was disclosed in the listing photos. Buyer pays return shipping and is not reimbursed for original shipping.

It seems, in this case, that the seller has to accept the return (seller stated returns accepted in the listing) but the buyer has to pay all shipping costs ($10 original plus $6 return shipping) because it was a discretionary buyer return, the buyer saw the photos showing the defects before buying the dial. Buyer can't claim a defect hidden, not disclosed, by the seller or item damaged in shipment. Seller can easily prove to eBay the buyer has no basis for using the missing or damaged return reason and buyer must pay shipping costs both way.

In this case, isn't it really a "parts" listing regardless of the incorrect description and the only legitimate reason for return being changed mind, didn't like it or ordered by mistake, all 3 of which require the buyer to pay all shipping costs?

TelePlay

Can a buyer ask for a full refund including shipping if and item is damaged before the purchase, the damage is not disclosed in words by the seller but the damage clearly shows in the listing photos?

The damage? Only 6 of the 10 pulse cogs are on the pulse wheel. Did you spot that?