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Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Telephone Wiring Diagrams => Leich and North Wiring Diagrams => Topic started by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 11:30:31 AM

Title: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 11:30:31 AM
Does anyone know where to find a wiring diagram for the 100 series Leichs, specifically a 115 (with Dial and h/s latch)?
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2017, 12:02:18 PM
You've probably seen this. Don't know if it's what you need or not.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/4515-gsp-473-211-800-i1-apr67-leich-100-series-kts-mod
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 12:42:50 PM
Here is what I have.
The set is essentially like a WECo 500 set, except the network connections are a little different.
This diagram does not contain the latch.  Haven't seen a diagram for that, IIRC.  But with this is should be fairly simple to ascertain its wiring.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 01:07:42 PM
Would love to see some detailed pics of your 115.  They aren't found in abundance.
It is hard to find reliable information. Do you have  any 1950s catalogs ?
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 12:42:50 PM
Here is what I have.
The set is essentially like a WECo 500 set, except the network connections are a little different.
This diagram does not contain the latch.  Haven't seen a diagram for that, IIRC.  But with this is should be fairly simple to ascertain its wiring.

Thanks, that's perfect. The phone works perfect; It transmits and receives, dials out, and even rings. The only problem is the hookswitch latch doesn't allow monitoring of the line. Now that I've seen this diagram, it looks like i hooked up the line cord incorrectly; a simple switch of the ring lead and the white lead from the dial should fix it up.

Here's a couple quick pics I took last night when I was starting to clean it up. It was filthy, but I was excited to snatch it up when I saw it was labeled 20~ and had the latch. Other than copious amounts of dirt and some sticker residue it is great condition.

I'm fighting the security check bug on the pictures. I'll try to upload some later.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: TelePlay on July 02, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 02:26:23 PM
I'm fighting the security check bug on the pictures. I'll try to upload some later.

It's been more sensitive the past few days to a week. Haven't seen it in months and then caught it 3 or 4 times myself recently. I ran the images through BatchPurifier

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18071.0

and that solved the problem.

You taking photos with a newer camera phone or editing in an Adobe product (just curious)
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 02:35:55 PM
Quote from: TelePlay on July 02, 2017, 02:32:25 PM
It's been more sensitive the past few days to a week. Haven't seen it in months and then caught it 3 or 4 times myself recently. I ran the images through BatchPurifier

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18071.0

and that solved the problem.

You taking photos with a newer camera phone or editing in an Adobe product (just curious)

I'll give Batchpurifier a try. I took the photos with an Android smartphone and edited them using GIMP.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 02:39:00 PM
Here goes nothing. I'll post photos of the internals later this evening when I have a chance to open it back up.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 03:27:32 PM
The phone has a 20 Hz frequency ringer,  indicated by code T.   You're lucky, because that means it still rings today on a standard line.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 02, 2017, 03:51:41 PM
I have here a box which I marked "Leich 105C w/ hooklatch"  Based on what was in previous replies that's self-contradictory: it's either truly a 115 or does not have hooklatch.  But if that's what I marked on the box most likely it's what's marked on the phone.  Perhaps it's a Frankenfone that was converted.  If there is interest I'll dig it out and report in more detail on what I find.  Good to see from Karl's chart that it probably has a SL ringer.

I also have an AE40 with hooklatch and a Kellogg full size wood magneto wall phone with hooklatch.  The 40 was one of my first eBay purchases circa 1998. 

The WE 302AA/AC performed a similar function (if I remember the codes accurately), using what was originally an exclusion switch but there was a version of the 354 marked "modified per A-xxxxx" (some 4 or 5 digit #) which implemented a mechanical hooklatch function on the handset cradle and there were D-type handset mountings with this function too: a small lever on the underside of the cradle.

All kind of interesting variations on standard sets.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 04:52:29 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 03:27:32 PM
The phone has a 20 Hz frequency ringer,  indicated by code T.   You're lucky, because that means it still rings today on a standard line.

It's interesting to me that Leich used both a letter code for ringing frequency and the actual number. In any case, that "20" stamped on the base is one of the reasons I snapped this up.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 07:35:49 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 02, 2017, 04:52:29 PM
It's interesting to me that Leich used both a letter code for ringing frequency and the actual number. In any case, that "20" stamped on the base is one of the reasons I snapped this up.

I suppose the letter code is suitable in the ordering number of the set, while in the field it may be more convenient for installers to see the numerical frequency, but one would think they learn those codes pretty quickly.  In any case, Stromberg-Carlson also did that at least at times, and I think I have seen Kellogg sets with codes and numbers.


Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 02, 2017, 03:51:41 PM
I have here a box which I marked "Leich 105C w/ hooklatch"  Based on what was in previous replies that's self-contradictory: it's either truly a 115 or does not have hooklatch.  But if that's what I marked on the box most likely it's what's marked on the phone.  Perhaps it's a Frankenfone that was converted.  If there is interest I'll dig it out and report in more detail on what I find.  Good to see from Karl's chart that it probably has a SL ringer.


I have seen so few of the 100-series that I don't even have confirmation of all the model numbers.  I have been going by the model number sequence of the 700-series.  This may be the first 115 I have seen in pics.

101   Common battery, manual service
105   Common battery, dial service
111   Common battery, as 101 manual, but with push-to-talk hookswitch latch for party lines.
115   As 105, for dial service, with hookswitch latch

I don't have any confirmation for the other numbers, 13x, 14x, 15x, and 16x.  I suspect some of those weren't implemented with the 425 style network anymore.

Below is a list for the 700-series.  The 700s looked the same as the 100s, but used the old induction coil transmission circuit and had F1 and HA1 handset elements.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 08:14:27 PM
This is the way I like to display this phone type.
Since it looks so similar to a 500 set, wall mounting it emphasizes the major difference.

This is in fact the way the set was found, in wall mounting configuration.   It was originally a manual set from the factory made in August 1955, marked 101J 66 2/3, but a dial was added and the ringer changed to 50 Hz frequency in 1956.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 02, 2017, 11:24:40 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 02, 2017, 07:44:09 PM
I have seen so few of the 100-series that I don't even have confirmation of all the model numbers.  I have been going by the model number sequence of the 700-series.  This may be the first 115 I have seen in pics.
I inspected mine.  Like yours, mine has the dial installed "upside down" for wall mounting and a stub of IW instead of a line cord. 

The original 303-486 number appears on an adhesive sticker on top of the plastic finger wheel to add the area code.   The last 4 digits of the # have been blacked out with a marker but after removing the FW I found a plain white number card with the full 486-xxxx 7-digit number.  So it's from CO but I have not tried to determine where.

An interesting detail of the area code sticker is that at the bottom is printed: "DDD Access No. 17".

Mine has a problem with the feet drying out, cracking and falling apart.  That's a manageable problem once I get it mounted on a wooden "L" stand like yours.

It's actually marked 105C on the bottom and does contain a SL ringer, although the clapper has a very different feel from a C4 ringer, stiff enough to almost seem like a frequency ringer at "first pluck".  But it's not, it's SL.  It looks like any one of these sets that came into a collector's possession with a frequency ringer could be retrofitted with a WE, ITT or S-C C4-style ringer to make it fully operable.

Mine also does indeed have the hooklatch function.  I'm not sure whether it could have been retrofitted given the number of mechanical parts on the cradle switch assembly that are required for this function, in addition to drilling the housing. 

The housing has a molded bushing for the button so precise drilling would be easy and the button overhangs the hole on top and is retained with a "C" ring inside so how clean the edges of the hole are at the top surface is not apparent without some disassembly. However one suspicious thing suggesting it might have been converted is the fact that the hand-hold "cup" is beige whereas the rest of the housing is black.

Mine is old enough to use a standard 3" (#51x?) dial with black metal plate with "radiating" white arrow heads and a separate outer plastic number ring.  I suppose that like AE 80-series sets later ones used a single piece plastic plate.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 02, 2017, 11:31:24 PM
BTW, I also have another "reversible" desk/wall set" a Televerket light gray one.  It's very little used or not at all. 

It showed up in a thrift store in San Carlos CA some 15+ years ago together with a 554BR-58 (white) definitely unused in its original early WECo carton with just the blue printing on the outside and the packet of accessory parts inside.  It has Bell System markings.  Apparently never exposed to light, the white plastic is perfectly free of discoloration.

If the 554BR showed up after the creation of CRPF it definitely would be a candidate for Find of the Month.  I probably paid $15 for it or something equally insignificant.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 12:27:37 AM
Here's the inside of my 115. I am really pleased with it. It does in fact have the original 20 cycle ringer, and all of the dated components are either '54 or '55. The dial number card appears to be original to the phone as well.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 01:07:18 AM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 12:27:37 AM
Here's the inside of my 115. I am really pleased with it. It does in fact have the original 20 cycle ringer, and all of the dated components are either '54 or '55. The dial number card appears to be original to the phone as well.
Where did you find dates? 

The exposed side of the network on this one is black but the side facing the dial is not, so perhaps it was painted over.  The baseplate is marked "1 57" in a separate line from the "105C".  The receiver unit is WE U1 5-20-55 but the transmitter is an undated ITT 75555, obviously replaced.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 02:04:48 AM
Alex,

Mine is dated in the same places. 4 55 is stamped on the bottom near the model number and ringer frequency, the receiver element (WE U1) is dated 3-31-54, and the transmitter (WE T1) is dated 4-54. I haven't found dates on any other components.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 02:10:32 AM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 02:04:48 AM
Alex,

Mine is dated in the same places. 4 55 is stamped on the bottom near the model number and ringer frequency, the receiver element (WE U1) is dated 3-31-54, and the transmitter (WE T1) is dated 4-54. I haven't found dates on any other components.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 12:48:32 PM
I am interested in a high-resolution picture of the rear of the dial.  The dials in these are supposed to be No. 52 dials, I believe, while at first the 700-type sets still used 51A dials (later, 52 too).   I believe mine has a No. 52, but I am not 100% sure, as I don't have a record that I ever removed the front 'number' plate (it has no numbers) to show the finger stop.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 12:48:32 PM
I am interested in a high-resolution picture of the rear of the dial.  The dials in these are supposed to be No. 52 dials, I believe, while at first the 700-type sets still used 51A dials (later, 52 too).   I believe mine has a No. 52, but I am not 100% sure, as I don't have a record that I ever removed the front 'number' plate (it has no numbers) to show the finger stop.
Which dial would you like a photo of?  Mine or Mentalstampede's?  From his partial view his also seems to have a separate outer ring.

I downloaded 3 docs from the TCI library to try to be certain of the differences between 51As and 52s:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_download/613-ae-dials-type-51-and-52-excerpt
which is more explicitly "AE Cat M (date unk) p.M-28 - 51A & 52 Type Dial ID excerpt"

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_download/275-ae-dials-types-51-a-and-52-reference-charts
and
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_download/279-gsp-997-300-500-i5-table-2-aeco-dial-chart

Which might be more explicitly renamed:
A.E. Cat Unknown pp. 4, 26, 27, 28 - Dials for Type 80 Series.pdf
and
AECo 997-300-500 Iss. 4 p.8 - Tbl 2 - Dial Chart
(not necessarily in that order).

The last two docs left me needing to study them more than I have patience for but the first seems to make it clear that the 51A is a 3" dial with metal plate and separate plastic number ring as on my 105-C set and the 52 has a single piece extended number plate.

Are you looking for a photo of mine?
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 03:25:52 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 01:20:55 PM
Which dial would you like a photo of?  Mine or Mentalstampede's?
I was thinking of the OP, and he is in the picture taking posture already, but yours would be equally interesting, since they both originally had dials.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 04:03:02 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 03:25:52 PM
I was thinking of the OP, and he is in the picture taking posture already, but yours would be equally interesting, since they both originally had dials.
Here are some high res. photos.  The phone is still out on the lawn in case more are needed.  Direct sunlight with the sun directly overhead causes reflections but the shade is not good either at this hour, better when the sun is lower in the sky.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 04:19:33 PM
Wow, a plastic finger wheel !
Your dial is mounted in a cup of the outer number ring.

My number ring is mounted on the dial.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 04:42:32 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 04:19:33 PM
Wow, a plastic finger wheel !
Your dial is mounted in a cup of the outer number ring.

My number ring is mounted on the dial.
So I see!  I've never studied early AE 80 set dial variations in great detail other than observing the change from concentric plates to a single plate.

And mine has 5 textile insulated leads like shown on your diagram, including the two dotted ones.  I'm puzzled why the two extra leads would be optional.  I don't see any note stating when they are used and when not.

I've always assumed that the line varistor (312D) rendered the network non-reactive enough that WE chose to dispense with shunting the transmitter and optionally the IND coil. PRI wdg. but never seen any published statement on the topic.

It puzzles me that Leich would choose to use a WH, a GN and a BL dial lead and not use them the same way they're used on a #7 dial fundamentally they were reproducing the 500 set circuit.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 04:42:32 PM
So I see!  I've never studied early AE 80 set dial variations in great detail other than observing the change from concentric plates to a single plate.

And mine has 5 textile insulated leads like shown on your diagram, including the two dotted ones.  I'm puzzled why the two extra leads would be optional.  I don't see any note stating when they are used and when not.

I've always assumed that the line varistor (312D) rendered the network non-reactive enough that WE chose to dispense with shunting the transmitter and optionally the IND coil. PRI wdg. but never seen any published statement on the topic.

It puzzles me that Leich would choose to use a WH, a GN and a BL dial lead and not use them the same way they're used on a #7 dial fundamentally they were reproducing the 500 set circuit.

It looks to me like ALL the dial leads are shown as dotted, not just the two from terminals C and F, although it's hard to tell since some of them, are drawn very short on the diagram. I think that's to denote that they are not present on non-dial versions of the phone, since it's a one size fits all diagram. So not optional, per-se.

Hopefully I'll have a chance to take some pictures of my dial tonight; things are hectic around here due to the holiday.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
It looks to me like ALL the dial leads are shown as dotted, not just the two from terminals C and F, although it's hard to tell since some of them, are drawn very short on the diagram. I think that's to denote that they are not present on non-dial versions of the phone, since it's a one size fits all diagram. So not optional, per-se.

Hopefully I'll have a chance to take some pictures of my dial tonight; things are hectic around here due to the holiday.
You're right!  All 5 are dotted and surely it's for that reason, though the ON contact leads would simply be absent in a manual set while the G S-H lead would have to connect to the P terminal (as designated on the diagram) instead and they don't show that on the diagram.  I suppose it's in the table.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 03, 2017, 04:42:32 PM
So I see!  I've never studied early AE 80 set dial variations in great detail other than observing the change from concentric plates to a single plate.
It's hard to find AE80s of this early date, as it is hard to find 100s.  I think AE_Collector (Terry) has some early 80s.  I don't know how long they made the 100, but perhaps no longer than until they started to make AE 80s for AE.

I had always questioned why Leich jumped in numbers from type 700 to 100, in a short period of time. It think the 700s came out around 1953, and I have reached the opinion that the 100 series was brought to market after the GT merger with the Gary Company, and Leich became subordinate to Automatic Electric in the combination.  AE had the 80/90 series already on the books, so the successor to the Leich 700 became the 100.  Therefore, the 100 acquired the Type 52 dial from the AE 80, for which it was made, I believe.

So, this is the explanation for my asking for the dial pictures. I am kind of surprised to see yours had a recessed (cupped) dial mounting bezel/ring, rather than the Type 52 front mounted number plate.  Perhaps the early 100s also used 51A dials, which is what I think yours is if it has bifurcated springs with twin-contacts points.  The picture is straight on, so I can't determine whether that is true in fact.

I thought 1955 was the first year of manufacture for the 100s, but Mentalstampede's 1954-dated receiver and transmitter may indicate the previous year.  Why else would Leich have bought WECo T1 and U1 elements ?  Perhaps they bought a large batch during the design phase already. On my August 1955 set, the elements are dated in January and April 1955, also several months before set production.

It may well be that the 100-type evolved in components used in the course of this time in mid-1950s, especially as the dial is concerned. Stromberg-Carlson underwent similar contemporaneous evolution from 1400 to the 1500 series.

Quote
It puzzles me that Leich would choose to use a WH, a GN and a BL dial lead and not use them the same way they're used on a #7 dial fundamentally they were reproducing the 500 set circuit.

Your picture shows the two receiver shunt wires are more or less white/grey, while they are red and yellow in the diagram, and also on my set with the PVC insulation.  Is there evidence that they are just color-faded the entire length?

The colors WH and GR, also R and Y were already used for the dial in the 700 series, so in the 100 they just added the blue.  BTW, the 700 series had specifications, that it could use a WECo #7 dial, albeit wired differently than in a 500 set.

I think AE started using PVC insulation closer to their move to Northlake in 1957, so I think my dial may have been installed later than 1956, as I think I alluded to earlier.  That was the date on the replacement ringer.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 11:56:46 PM
The plot thickens!

I opened mine up to take more photos, and much to my surprise I have no blue lead on my dial like is shown on the diagram and You have in your phones. This does not as far as I can tell appear to have any detrimental effect on the operation of the phone, but it is interesting nonetheless. If my reading of the circuit diagram is correct, the only thing that changes is the transmitter is not shorted out of the circuit while dialing, only the receiver. Perhaps that would indicate that mine is an earlier phone with more similarity to the 700 series?

In any case, My dial is mounted in a recessed bezel like Alex's is. Also, my ring has large dots instead of the triangular chevrons I'm used to seeing on AE dials.

Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 08:18:08 PM

I thought 1955 was the first year of manufacture for the 100s, but Mentalstampede's 1954-dated receiver and transmitter may indicate the previous year.  Why else would Leich have bought WECo T1 and U1 elements ?  Perhaps they bought a large batch during the design phase already. On my August 1955 set, the elements are dated in January and April 1955, also several months before set production.

Mine has a 4 55 date on the base, so even though the elements have mid 1954 dates, they weren't actually assembled into a complete phone until April 1955.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 04, 2017, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 03, 2017, 11:56:46 PM
The plot thickens!

I opened mine up to take more photos, and much to my surprise I have no blue lead on my dial like is shown on the diagram and You have in your phones. This does not as far as I can tell appear to have any detrimental effect on the operation of the phone, but it is interesting nonetheless. If my reading of the circuit diagram is correct, the only thing that changes is the transmitter is not shorted out of the circuit while dialing, only the receiver. Perhaps that would indicate that mine is an earlier phone with more similarity to the 700 series?

In any case, My dial is mounted in a recessed bezel like Alex's is. Also, my ring has large dots instead of the triangular chevrons I'm used to seeing on AE dials.

Mine has a 4 55 date on the base, so even though the elements have mid 1954 dates, they weren't actually assembled into a complete phone until April 1955.

Your dial appears to be earlier even than a 51A dial, it does not have the twin-contact springs.  Also, the die-cast dial base is black anodized, and I have been wondering whether those are actually late 24A36 dials, as shown in the 1949 dial technical bulletin by AE.   The AE and GTE literature leave some gaping uncertainties about this.  On one hand we that dial manual, and on the other we have GTE practices that state that die-cast dial bases are type 51 or later.  And then, GTE practices also contain other mistakes about dial history, including w/r/t WECo dials, IIRC.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 04, 2017, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 03, 2017, 08:18:08 PM
It's hard to find AE80s of this early date, as it is hard to find 100s.  I think AE_Collector (Terry) has some early 80s.  I don't know how long they made the 100, but perhaps no longer than until they started to make AE 80s for AE.
The intercom company guy I bought phone stuff from as a kid had lots of early 80s with manually compensated networks and separate 3" dials with outer rings from PAX systems he bought to refurbish. 

I was given an old 80 set back around 2008 by an old family friend but it's not here for inspection.  I think it was manually compensated too.  I have a few 86 sets: 6 button key sets (here), a beautiful 85 in green and probably some others.  Not sure what I have that are early examples.
QuoteI had always questioned why Leich jumped in numbers from type 700 to 100, in a short period of time. It think the 700s came out around 1953, and I have reached the opinion that the 100 series was brought to market after the GT merger with the Gary Company, and Leich became subordinate to Automatic Electric in the combination.  AE had the 80/90 series already on the books, so the successor to the Leich 700 became the 100.  Therefore, the 100 acquired the Type 52 dial from the AE 80, for which it was made, I believe.
Interesting idea.  Never thought about it.
QuoteSo, this is the explanation for my asking for the dial pictures. I am kind of surprised to see yours had a recessed (cupped) dial mounting bezel/ring, rather than the Type 52 front mounted number plate.  Perhaps the early 100s also used 51A dials, which is what I think yours is if it has bifurcated springs with twin-contacts points.  The picture is straight on, so I can't determine whether that is true in fact.
Yes, it does.  AFAIK all early 80 sets used 51A dials with a separate outer ring and AFAI can see, this is the only way the ring could be attached to the dial since the metal 3" ring blocked the front holes around the hub used on 52 type dials
QuoteI thought 1955 was the first year of manufacture for the 100s, but Mentalstampede's 1954-dated receiver and transmitter may indicate the previous year.  Why else would Leich have bought WECo T1 and U1 elements ?  Perhaps they bought a large batch during the design phase already. On my August 1955 set, the elements are dated in January and April 1955, also several months before set production.
I wondered about their using WE transducers too.  But if this was just a batch, what did they use later?  Anything other than ITT would have required modification of the handset design.  The AE transmitter is much larger in diameter and depth and would have required a radical redesign.  OTOH, North Galion sets used WE F handset elements so apparently AT&T was not opposed to selling critical parts to independent mfrs.
QuoteIt may well be that the 100-type evolved in components used in the course of this time in mid-1950s, especially as the dial is concerned. Stromberg-Carlson underwent similar contemporaneous evolution from 1400 to the 1500 series.

Your picture shows the two receiver shunt wires are more or less white/grey, while they are red and yellow in the diagram, and also on my set with the PVC insulation.  Is there evidence that they are just color-faded the entire length?
They may have been very "pastel" from the start.  The colors are even very difficult to discern with the naked eye and good white light.  But inspecting them carefully I see one is pale pink or tan (indistinct at this low level of color saturation), which might be the "nominal" red, one is pale yellow and one is plausibly white.  The others are certainly BL and GN, so it looks like they adhered to the colors shown on the diagram but time has taken its toll. 

I'm about to print the diagram and take it to my shop where the phone is to see why it does not ring and will check whether the presumed colors are on the terminals shown in the diagram, which would confirm my suppositions about their actual original colors.
QuoteThe colors WH and GR, also R and Y were already used for the dial in the 700 series, so in the 100 they just added the blue. 
OTOH the 700 series was not the emulation of another circuit and they used the WE handset and line cord lead colors, which IIRC differed from AE's, so it seems to me it would have been more logical to part with the past practice and use dial lead colors which matched WE the same way as WE.
QuoteBTW, the 700 series had specifications, that it could use a WECo #7 dial, albeit wired differently than in a 500 set.
I wonder how it mounted!  Perhaps you are familiar with an AE mounting kit to install AE 52-type dials in 500 series sets so that independents using AE SATT (Strowger Automatic Toll Ticketing) CO equipment could use SATT dials on these sets.  That's the opposite case.
QuoteI think AE started using PVC insulation closer to their move to Northlake in 1957, so I think my dial may have been installed later than 1956, as I think I alluded to earlier.  That was the date on the replacement ringer.
I don't recall seeing textile insulated leads in AE 80-series telephone sets but I never made it a point to pay attention to this.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 01:21:28 AM
Investigating why my 100 C does not ring I found correct ringer and capacitor wiring.  I had thought the ringer clapper spring seemed very stiff considering that the ringer frame is stamped "SL 8 57" in vermilion.  I took the "SL" to mean it was a straight line ringer but now I have my doubts. 

For one thing there is no bias spring and for another the clapper, though small, as it might be for either a SL or moderately high frequency ringer, is attached with a set screw, something I would only expect with a frequency ringer.  The clapper also sits pretty much half-way between gongs, another thing that suggests a frequency rather than SL ringer.

And then, the capacitor is a 70D, 0.15uF, which if correct for the ringer would make it 40 or 42Hz.  I tried bridging the 0.15uF capacitor with 0.47uF to bring it closer to the stated 0.5uF for a SL ringer and while that increased armature motion, it was not by enough.

According to the table posted below Reply #9 the 100 C marking on the bottom indicates a SL ringer so it's puzzling that with this and the ringer marked "SL" too, with "8 57", presumably a date, probably original to the set, it does not in fact appear to be a SL ringer.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 05, 2017, 12:45:22 PM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 01:21:28 AM
Investigating why my 100 C does not ring I found correct ringer and capacitor wiring.  I had thought the ringer clapper spring seemed very stiff considering that the ringer frame is stamped "SL 8 57" in vermilion.  I took the "SL" to mean it was a straight line ringer but now I have my doubts. 

For one thing there is no bias spring and for another the clapper, though small, as it might be for either a SL or moderately high frequency ringer, is attached with a set screw, something I would only expect with a frequency ringer.  The clapper also sits pretty much half-way between gongs, another thing that suggests a frequency rather than SL ringer.

Interesting. It certainly sounds like a frequency ringer, bit I have never seen what a Leich straight line ringer looks like to compare. Is there anything stamped on the capacitor housing? My 20~ has the frequency stamped on the capacitor itself.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 01:13:09 PM
Quote from: mentalstampede on July 05, 2017, 12:45:22 PM
Interesting. It certainly sounds like a frequency ringer, bit I have never seen what a Leich straight line ringer looks like to compare. Is there anything stamped on the capacitor housing? My 20~ has the frequency stamped on the capacitor itself.
Thanks.  If so I did not notice but will look again and post photos. 

I read the code and capacitance value and looked them up on the chart on the wiring diagram.  The reed is so stiff, the clapper being centered and the lack of a bias spring all seem pretty clear indications that it is NOT a SL ringer despite the clear "SL" marking.  I have to think that between these things and the "C" code on the bottom of the set, that it was mismarked in the factory rather than the ringer having been swapped out.

I'm pretty sure I can replace it with a WE C4A or perhaps even replace the clapper assy with one from a C4A to keep the set more authentic. 

However past experience many years ago was that "opening" the magnetic circuit by removing the magnet caused significant loss of permanent magnetism, so the ringer did not work after re-assembly.  I believe I've seen  it stated somewhere many years later that the magnets were charged in place.  I'm not sure whether removing just the armature assy would have the same effect.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 04:17:34 PM
Here are some additional photos of the ringer and capacitor with their markings and the base plate markings, and also some interesting details of the base plate. 

Note the odd square hole punched beneath the dial toward the edge with flanges flared upward.  I wonder about its purpose.

Also note the brass clip which seems to retain the network whose tail end under the ringer capacitor seems to slip into a "V" slot so the network can be replaced.  I popped the brass clip up and tried to dislodge the network, prying against the body of the capacitor but it did not come free with the amount of force I felt safe applying.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: HarrySmith on July 05, 2017, 04:55:38 PM
Looking at that squarish hole magnified, the edges seem very rough and the metal is rusted where it was bent indicating the finish broke at those points. Maybe someone punched a hole to run a wire through?? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: unbeldi on July 05, 2017, 04:59:48 PM
I agree, your set (AGB's) exhibits a high degree of oddness w/r/t the ringer, lol.
It certainly has all the feature of a frequency ringer, and an SL ringer would have a bias spring.

I don't have any 100-set brochures or any catalogs where the 100 sets are shown.   The ringer code table, that I posted, I got from a 700 set brochure, IIRC. I would have recorded comments, had I ever found any discrepancies with observed ringer markings.

Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 05:16:13 PM
Quote from: HarrySmith on July 05, 2017, 04:55:38 PM
Looking at that squarish hole magnified, the edges seem very rough and the metal is rusted where it was bent indicating the finish broke at those points. Maybe someone punched a hole to run a wire through?? Just a thought.
I really don't think so.  The way the area around the hole is depressed/raised in a perfectly round circle suggests it was made in a press with a special die.

The original inside wire is still connected: brown jacketed 22AWG triplex, consistent with a 1950s installation.  It comes out the mounting cord hole, which is at the bottom when wall mounted.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 05:25:53 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on July 05, 2017, 04:59:48 PM
I agree, your set (AGB's) exhibits a high degree of oddness w/r/t the ringer, lol.
It certainly has all the feature of a frequency ringer, and an SL ringer would have a bias spring.

I don't have any 100-set brochures or any catalogs where the 100 sets are shown.   The ringer code table, that I posted, I got from a 700 set brochure, IIRC. I would have recorded comments, had I ever found any discrepancies with observed ringer markings.
If the ringer were not marked "SL" I might be inclined to think that more documentation would teach us something.  The fact of the "SL" marking matching the "C" code suggests to me that perhaps it came out of the factory as a SL set and was converted in the field to 40/42Hz by swapping the armature assy and capacitor.  That would explain how it passed final test on the production line.

I have a "frequency agile" ringing generator I concocted for testing.  When time permits I will try running it at 40-42Hz to see what happens and compare the construction of a WE C4A armature assy more carefully to see whether it looks like it would swap into place to convert it to SL.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: mentalstampede on July 06, 2017, 10:22:44 AM
Quote from: Alex G. Bell on July 05, 2017, 01:13:09 PM
I read the code and capacitance value and looked them up on the chart on the wiring diagram.  The reed is so stiff, the clapper being centered and the lack of a bias spring all seem pretty clear indications that it is NOT a SL ringer despite the clear "SL" marking.  I have to think that between these things and the "C" code on the bottom of the set, that it was mismarked in the factory rather than the ringer having been swapped out.

Interesting. I think you might be onto something regarding the capacitor and ringer motor having been changed while reusing the the ringer frame; it looks like that would be a relatively straightforward change. Your ringer looks just like my 20 cycle ringer with the exception of the clapper size, which would obviously be smaller for a 40~ ringer. I'll bet it'll ring if you are able to put 40 hz AC on it.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: Alex G. Bell on July 07, 2017, 03:06:56 PM
I compared a WE C4A ringer with the Leich ringer (and took photos) to see whether the WE armature assy could be swapped onto the Leich ringer to convert it to SL, or the whole WE ringer swapped into the Leich telephone set.  Despite close similarities, neither is feasible. 

With 1/16" more clearance here and there the WE ringer would fit but even the Leich ringer is a tight fit under the cradle switch spring and hooklatch mechanism.  The WE armature assy mounts to the ringer frame with a vertical screw while the Leich mounts with a horizontal screw so swapping the armature assy is not feasible either.

It might be possible to remove the WE and Leich armatures with their "reeds" from their mountings by grinding off the staked posts, then drilling and tapping the foot by which they mount to the ringer frame #2-56 or #4-40 and reattaching the WE armature and reed to the Leich foot with machine screws.  I'm not going to do so at this time.

Unfortunately the rubber grommets in the Leich ringer mounting ears were dried out and all the insertion and removal cycles in the very tight space caused them to crack and come off.  The required grommet needs to fit in a 1/4" hole in a 1/8" panel, which is not a standard I can find.  Perhaps four of these 1/4" x 1/16" grommets, two back to back in each foot, each with one flange sliced off, will work.
http://keyelco.com/product.cfm/Rubber-Grommets/733/p/430/id/441/c_id/866/product_id/2731

I'll post the ringer photos if there is interest.
Title: Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
Post by: MMikeJBenN27 on April 26, 2021, 08:01:01 AM
Yes, you can use a Western Electric ringer, but you have to file out that raised relief that is right where the adjusting will be, and you have to use an external ringing condenser.  I have done it many times, as Leich ringers are almost un-obtainable.