This information was originally posted in another topic I started of what became a project phone. Since this method was just a part of that topic, it may be hard to find so I am duplicating the Bakelite restoration and polishing parts of that topic here. A lot has been written about restoring Bakelite and after reading it all and having a very pitted handset to work on, I came up with this method, that worked for me. It all in one place here for posterity, and convenience.
The original topic was AE D1 Continental clone? project (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12237.0) and the Bakelite method that work for me is as follows.
The first picture is of the handset after stripping off the gold paint (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12237.msg129312#msg129312).
The method I then used (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12237.msg129393#msg129393) was as follows:
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1 ) If painted, first, remove the paint. I used Citri-Strip, two applications did it for this handset. I use aircraft paint remover for tougher paints.
1a) If not painted, start with next step.
2 ) I go over the phone with 000 steel wool and Brasso as many times as needed to clean the Bakelite surface.
3 ) I hand sand the Bakelite using 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper using Brasso as the wetting agent.
4 ) I sand an area until the Brasso dries out and becomes a black paste like coating on the Bakelite
5 ) I then use a Ryobie orbital buffer to remove the Brasso paste.
6 ) I repeat the sanding process (Steps 3, 4 & 5) until the surface is smooth or as smooth as desired.
7 ) I use a cotton wheel with white polishing compound on a 3400 rpm buffer
8 ) I buff in different directions each time I add compound to the wheel.
9 ) When looking well polished but still a bit dull, I move over to a red polishing compound with a different cotton wheel
10) Again, I buff in different directions each time I apply more compound.
11) When satisfied, I wipe the buffing dust off with a clean cotton rag and that's what you see in the picture.
The third process step, which I haven't tried yet, is to go to a polishing compound designed for plastic and a softer wheel which may put a gloss finish on what is seen in these photos. I start with 800 grit sandpaper. It may be quicker to start with 600 and move up to 800 or even 1000 before heading to the buffer. EDIT #1 - Stay away from 600 grit, start with 800, period. EDIT #2 - 600 grit dry sandpaper works well to get rid of most of the pit highs and can be used until nearing what you want or expect to be the final surface. It does leave the Bakelite dull from the grit but that is easily removed with the 800 grit/Brasso wet sanding. The 600 grit dry reduces the amount of time needed to get to a smooth finish.
The bottom (after) picture of the combination photo shows very minor pitting which could be removed with more sanding before buffing. This is bare Bakelite that's been sanded and buffer - no oils, waxes or polishes have been applied. Overall, it's a question of what you want, what you are satisfied with. You can always go back to the sandpaper if you don't like what you see after buffing and repeat the method until satisfied.
Any Brasso on the sandpaper will re-liquify simply by adding another small portion of fresh Brasso to the paper. I simply hold the paper over the Brasso can opening, shake it once, and that is enough to wet the paper for a few minutes of hand sanding. Water does not work with this process and the handset does get warm to very warm when buffing.
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The high magnification photos have a reference ruler on the left. The lines on the ruler are 0.1 cm apart. The side by side photos are identical with the ruler laid on top of the handset on the left. On the after photo, you can still see some pits but without the high magnification, to the naked eye, it looks very nice. I finer buffing compound may make it even better but haven't taken the time to switch wheels yet. The bottom photo shows the approximate location where the two photos were taken.
The last photo shows in the red circles the approximate are in which the close ups were taken.
xzzx-polishing bakelite-xzzx
Next phase of Bakelite polishing for me worked out well. Got another painted D1 and stripped the creme colored paint off everything. The F1 handset has a good surface but the receiver cap was very rough and pitted. Very rough so I came up with this restoration solution and tool.
Bought a cheap, small, variable speed bench grinder with a 36" flexible shaft attachment some time ago. Not real happy with the motor. It is cheap and has little torque. Easy to stall when using it as a grinder so didn't use it much. But, as I started to work on the cap in question, I looked at that "power" tool and got an idea while working the cramps out of my fingers.
In the first picture below, the grinder set to about 7,500 rpm is Photo 1; where the shaft attaches to the grinder is Photo 2; the wool covered working end of the flexible shaft is Photo 3; and an on/off foot switch I made some 30 years ago is Photo 4 (the D1 base plate is next to it to show size).
To make the tool, I took a 1" diameter Dremel buffing wheel and wrapped a layer of 00 steel wool over it and down around it the shaft. I taped the wool down around the shaft and secured the tap with a rubber band. More wool was added by layering it on top of the existing wool as needed during the Brasso polishing phase.
I started by sanding the cap by hand with 600 grit dry sandpaper. I could watch what was coming off by wiping the dust away which showed the remaining pits, peaks and valleys filled with dust. I sanded until the cap looked quite smooth, and quite dull from the sandpaper. (NOTE: some say one can sand Bakelite too much an expose the core and if that is the case, sand carefully.) I could have sanded more but decided I was happy with what I had at that point in time.
Cleaned off the dust and put a blob of Brasso on the cap. Smeared it around with the steel wool on the tool and hit the foot switch to begin polishing the Bakelite. 7,500 seemed to be a good speed to polish the cap without sending the Brasso flying of in every direction.
Kept working the tool over the surface until the Brasso dried. Wiped off the Brasso dust and repeated that step several more times putting new layers of wool on the tool as needed.
When the surface of the cap started to look shiny, I started to use 000 steel wool until the Bakelite had a near gloss finish. I then took the cap to my bench buffer and first used white rubbing compound on a stiffer wheel followed by red rubbing compound on a softer wheel.
The results of about 15 to 20 minutes of total work can be seen in the bottom two pictures. The cap had one deep pit that still has creme paint in it. Could not sand that pit out because it was too deep so just left it. The pit is at the 3 o'clock position in the "after" photo and about the 10 o'clock in the "before" photo.
The "after" cap is right off the buffing wheel. No wax, oil, polish or SSS has been applied. It is a totally dry, smooth and near gloss Bakelite surface. And, yes, I was wearing a white tee-shirt with red letting on the front of it when I took the "after" photo, the reflection in the cap.
This worked for me. I'm passing my method along to anyone who may find this method and "power tool" useful in restoring Bakelite.
Nice job. Looks like it is brand new bakelite!
Looks great! I have a couple of my old phones I've been anxious to get to but work has been killing me lately. On the positive side, I will get some good time off starting next week. But the house will also be filled with extended family, so who knows what sort of "pay" time I will get...
Well done!
Continuing of this theme, for as long as I've been on the forum there have been two camps on sanding Bakelite. One saying don't sand because if you sand through the thin shiny layer created by the metal mold, you will end up with a pitted spot or area and have ruined the item. The other being sanding is the best way to get Bakelite smooth and those who used that technique have never experienced the "sand through" problem.
Some time ago, I bought two large boxes of handsets, mostly SC but some Kellogg, and they came dirty and some looking like they recovered them from the Titanic last year. One was a Kellogg that had the outer half of the receiver cup broken clean off. Other than that, the Bakelite surface was in the same condition most other handset are in when found, having a dull shine with some browning and and pits. Nothing major, just old. We've all seen the rough surface of broken Bakelite and the very thin smooth layer created by the mold. This is how it looked like, at least part of the broken cup, to show the starting surface, not which I worked on (didn't get a picture of that) but as an example of what it looked like . . .
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=150327;image)
This broken handset gave me a chance to try an experiment I'd been thinking of for some time. First, I took a metal file to the thick part between the receiver metal contacts, the thick part where the cup attaches to the handle, to knock off a high point and create a flat surface. After just filing down to a small flat spot which was very dull, I took it to my 3400 rpm buffer using white compound and then red. The whole experiment took 5 minutes. The results are on the left under the yellow arrows. The yellow arrows are pointing out the thickness of the mold surface. The green box shows the broken Bakelite untouched and the orange box shows the broken Bakelite that was touched by the buffer wheel, the tops of the high points were taking on a shine.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=150329;image)
The first trial, the small spot, turned out well, smooth and shiny but it showed file marks. As such, I started over on that small spot by leveling most of that area with a Demel cutting tool. It was larger, flat and very dull. I used the above method starting with 800 grit sandpaper wet with Brasso and after sanding in both directions two time about 15 seconds each, moved up to 1000 grit doing the same thing. After that I went to the buffer, as above, and with about 3 minutes of buffing time total, I ended up with the surface show on the right in the above image. The green circle shows the rough, broken Bakelite and the red arrow shows the surface transformed from rough broken Bakelite to a shine better than anywhere else on the handset as received.
In a full view of the broken cup below, the yellow boxes show broken Bakelite, the green circle shows the existing handle and inner cup shiny surfaces and the red circle shows the test area right off the buffer, not wax or any other surface treatment applied.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=150331;image)
This image is the same area taken from the other side of the, the red areas showing the original broken Bakelite, the yellow arrow the test area.
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=150333;image)
The above images are attached below and can be click on to enlarge to see detail. Only thing I should have done as start with 320 grit sandpaper working up to 400 and 600 before going to 800 to remove some of the marks made by the Dremel cutting tool when creating the flat surface. I can still do that and if I have time today, I could start with 320 and see what difference that will make in the final surface.
So, it seems even if one would sand through the very thin shiny mold layer, it is possible to get the surface back to near mold quality.
The final test, or experiment using the damaged handset.
First buffed the damaged end of the handset to get a nice shine.
Then, used a 100 grit sanding stick to create a flat spot about a nickle in size. This would be an area sanded through the smooth mold formed outer layer to the "rough" Bakelite under that thin, outer layer.
Started with 320 water wet sandpaper, then 400 and 600 both water wet. Then used 800, 1000 and 2000 grit wet with Brasso buffing off the dried Brasso with my orbital polisher between polishings. Upon inspection, I noticed a sand mark so went back to the 400 grit and repeated each step. The sand mark was go so took it to the buffer, first white and then red compound. Buffed with red until I could clearly see both tubes of my overhead work light in the cup area.
I could not just sand the damaged area so the whole cup area was subjected to the sanding and polishing procedure above, making the camera image clearer in the restored Bakelite.
The first image below are the as found, sanded flat and restored cup images from left to right.
The image just below that is the same thing but showing my camera and finger reflection in the left and right image in the yellow circle and the image on the right shows distortion of the center light due to the now flat spot in the once round cup. The distortion can be felt but can not be seen unless the cup is held in just the right light.
So, Bakelite, broken or sanded through can be restored. This ends my experimentation with Bakelite restoration.
Excellent documentation John. It makes good sense that you would be able to sand and buff Bakelite back to a factory shine or at least extremely close to factory shine.
Presumably there may be some differences in Bakelite that might make some types more difficult to get a durable shiny finish. I know little about Bakelite but have heard of it containing fillers etc that might not hold a shine when sanded and buffed even though the original surface was shiny.
In Bakelite AE sets I gave noticed what appears to me to be different degrees of glossy shine from one to the next. I have no way of knowing what one set has been through compared to the next but some that are completely clean and don't appear to be pitted at all just don't have the same thick glossy look that other sets have. I don't have a buffer so my observations are just from having cleaned and polished by hand.
I have been looking at buffers and or grinders a bit lately. I always heard that a 3400 rpm buffer was way to fast to touch plastic so this has prevented me from buying one several times now. While there are 1700 rpm buffers out there the 3400's are much easier to find with several models and price ranges to choose from. There are variable speed grinders so I keep wondering why no variable speed buffers.
Terry
Great work, John!
Are we sure that irreversibly dull Bakelite is caused by wear? What if it's simply reacting negatively to skin oils over time, and what if the layer exposed to oils can't be brought back unless completely removed?
Have we ever seen Bakelite housings with the level of dullness and pitting seen on Bakelite handsets? I don't think wear has ever caused pitting, and I've found that worn Bakelite can always be brought back to gloss.
Just a quick note. There was an composition error in this post
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12264.msg176346#msg176346
Since I was trying something new, I created the reply in a back room area so I could do a lot of modifying without risk of people seeing a work in progress. What I was doing was attaching the pictures and the bottom of the reply and then went back in and one image at a time, linked them to within the text of the topic. I then merged that reply into my Bakelite restoration topic. It looked good to me. I was not aware, until today, that the image number of the merged topic stayed the same but so did the topic number, it was not changed by the forum software to the current location when merged.
As such, the images in the merged topic looked like externally linked images but with a broken link. I have now revised those links within the test so reading the test will make more sense.
Next time I do that type of reply, I will do it within the topic where it will finally reside. Leaned another lesson about externally link images developing bad links. Sorry . . .
Quote from: AE_Collector on November 15, 2016, 12:19:30 AM
I have been looking at buffers and or grinders a bit lately. I always heard that a 3400 rpm buffer was way to fast to touch plastic so this has prevented me from buying one several times now. While there are 1700 rpm buffers out there the 3400's are much easier to find with several models and price ranges to choose from. There are variable speed grinders so I keep wondering why no variable speed buffers.
Yes, I use a 3450 RPM extended shaft buffer. There is a great topic on buffers on the forum (http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8217.0) and yes, 3450 is very fast for plastics - can easily melt or burn any plastic at that speed, from experience. The slower 1700 RPM buffer is recommended for plastic.
This is the buffer I bought before the melting plastic replies were posted, or I found them.
http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-1-2-hp-buffmotor.html
It works great for metal and Bakelite. Actually, strongly pressing the Bakelite against the wheel to the point of heating the Bakelite works best and that takes pressure and speed and time. Doing that with plastic will ruin the plastic. The warmer the Bakelite gets, the better the shine.
As a test, I just buffer another part of that handset. Within the first few seconds, it just looked buffer. When the reflective shine began to appear, the temperature of the Bakelite area being buffer was 160 degrees F using a surface temperature reading device. Never check the surface temperature before but have felt the "hot" area after buffing. When removed from the wheel, the temperature drops rapidly, gets back do to 100-110 F within 10 seconds. So, it seems the Bakelite surface is becoming more "fluid" with the increased temperature and "melting" to create a more "mld like" surface, possibly "smearing" the polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride (pure Bakelite) over the wood fillers that can not by themselves be polished? Don't know. BTW, pronounced poly-oxy-benzyl-methylen-glycol-anhydride, guess that's why it's called Bakelite . . . ::)
As a side note, I do use this buffer for plastic but the plastic has to just barely touch the wheel, the plastic has to be kept moving and you have to buff off of edges, not toward edges, to keep the wheel from catching a sharp edge and quickly burning it off and the time on the wheel is very short in any one area to keep the plastic from heating more than a few degrees. It takes a lot of trial and error to buff plastic on a high speed buffer, can be done but it is risky, even with practice.So, just a quick buff at 3450 RPM will "polish" an existing surface, not improve the reflect-ability of the surface. Strongly buffing the existing surface will increase the reflect-ability of the surface moving to a more mirror like surface. This can be seen both the light bulb and the camera reflections in this image. The light bulbs became a bit sharper (less diffuse) and the camera reflection more clear (the yellow circle).
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=150358;image)
I was not trying for a mirror finish, just the ability to bring sanded through Bakelite to a finish like the surrounding area. That was accomplished. I think if I buffed the handset cup more, it would develop an even better reflective surface. May try that later.
And from earlier in the topic, this handset was cleaned with acetone to remove surface oils and then restored to a nice shine using my method.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12264.msg129509#msg129509
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12264.0;attach=104202;image)
This handset was quite dull and pitted from many years of use and it came back by sanding off the high points and strongly buffing the sanded surface to a nice shine. Could I get a better reflection? Possibly, but that was not the goal in the first post of this topic.
So, along those lines, the only question remaining is how smooth can one get a rough Bakelite surface by sanding and buffing. The problem I have with doing that is diminishing returns, is it worth the time and effort to get just a little bit more shine or is 90% or so of mirror like shine acceptable for display? That's a personal decision and I'll leave it at that because it depends on what someone wants in the end. And, the buffed parts look much better when seen in total in normal light than what appears in an image - the camera is a very unforgiving device.
For what it's worth, when buffing thermoplastic I use an unsewn wheel. It's not as easy to burn the plastic as with a sewn wheel. Bakelite is tougher, and can stand the heat. You need to be careful, but it's a lot faster than polishing by hand.
Good tutorial John ! I agree with all of the information you've provided. I've been sanding and buffing bakelite for probably about 20 years, and tried numerous methods, some good, some bad, and finally settled on the method you employ. I discovered a polishing compound you may want to try with your buffing wheel. It's made by DICO, in Utica, NY., and it's called, "PBC", or plastic buffing compound. I buy the round tubes of PBC, but I also think they make it in bar form. It works well in both bakelite and plastic.
The one thing I've found with bakelite, and which you touched on, is that I firmly believe telephone companies that produced products in bakelite used different methods and fillers to produce their products. I say that because, as you have also pointed out, results can vary greatly, from one thing to the next while using the exact same procedure for each.
Being in Canada, and a restoring a lot of Northern Electric Uniphones, I've noticed different results from one Uniphone case to the next. I've also noticed that the Uniphone cases made with the brown swirled bakelite, or walnut color as the company called it, in most cases polishes a lot better than the black bakelite.
Here are some pictures of Uniphones that I've polished over the years. Just click on them, and they'll enlarge.
The other thing I wanted to mention with respect to polishing plastic, is the use of a buffing wheel called a "string buff". It works well when polishing parts with a lot of "nooks and crannies" , as the string contours itself around whatever is being polished.
John if you'd like to try the DICO PBC polishing compound, let me know and I'll put half a tube in the mail for you to try.
Enjoy the day.
Jeff Lamb
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on November 16, 2016, 09:22:16 AM
John if you'd like to try the DICO PBC polishing compound, let me know and I'll put half a tube in the mail for you to try.
Jeff,
Thanks for that information and the great pictures. And, yes, a string or unsewn buffing wheel is much preferred for plastics.
Reading your reply, I was thinking Bakelite mixed with fillers seems to be a lot like pot metal in that the metals within any piece of pot metal can vary and can be seen when highly polishing the surface. If the quality control over the filler of type, particle size and concentration is not real tight and varies, that would explain and/or confirm what you said and what I've found when working with and polishing Bakelite.
As for the DICO PBC, thanks for the offer. I did a quick check for it and found that I can buy the following stuff from an ACE hardware store about a mile away from me, for $5.25, today. Seems like the same thing by name and source (Utica NY). If this looks like what you use, let me know and I'll go get a tube today and try it.
Thanks John. That "IS" the stuff ! I should have mentioned that Ace carry it, but forgot. I find it works well. Let me know how you like it. Yes, I agree with the "pot metal" analogy and Bakelite composition. I can't imagine they measured things down to the "gram", and I would also assume the ingredients came from the lowest bidder, which meant that most likely there'd be a variance in the quality of the raw materials themselves, from one source to another.
Jeff
Quote from: Ktownphoneco on November 16, 2016, 09:22:16 AM
Good tutorial John ! I agree with all of the information you've provided. I've been sanding and buffing bakelite for probably about 20 years, and tried numerous methods, some good, some bad, and finally settled on the method you employ. I discovered a polishing compound you may want to try with your buffing wheel. It's made by DICO, in Utica, NY., and it's called, "PBC", or plastic buffing compound. I buy the round tubes of PBC, but I also think they make it in bar form. It works well in both bakelite and plastic.
The one thing I've found with bakelite, and which you touched on, is that I firmly believe telephone companies that produced products in bakelite used different methods and fillers to produce their products. I say that because, as you have also pointed out, results can vary greatly, from one thing to the next while using the exact same procedure for each.
Being in Canada, and a restoring a lot of Northern Electric Uniphones, I've noticed different results from one Uniphone case to the next. I've also noticed that the Uniphone cases made with the brown swirled bakelite, or walnut color as the company called it, in most cases polishes a lot better than the black bakelite.
Here are some pictures of Uniphones that I've polished over the years. The other thing I wanted to mention with respect to polishing plastic, is the use of a buffing wheel called a "string buff". It works well when polishing parts with a lot of "nooks and crannies" , as the string contours itself around whatever is being polished.
John if you'd like to try the DICO PBC polishing compound, let me know and I'll put half a tube in the mail for you to try.
Enjoy the day.
Jeff Lamb
Jeff;
Those are absolutely gorgeous, especially the Walnut.
D/P
Thanks Dan. As I mentioned, the walnut sets always seem to produce a much more spectacular shine than the black ones. Another mystery we'll probably never find the answer to.
Jeff
Got a stick of DICO PCB at Ace today.
Spent about 5 minutes on the handset. Did not change my wheel, just dressed it. The PCB does indeed work better than the red compound I was using and from the picture on the far right, you can see an even more mirror like finish (pink circle).
Since the Bakelite is not smooth, was not sanded smooth (no attempt was made to do so), I don't think this experimental area will ever get any more reflective. What I have here is a highly polished irregular surface.
Had the Bakelite been sanded smooth, this would have been a mirror like finish, if this particular handset could be sanded smooth, that is.
John,
That is an amazing polishing result and also well-documented! Great job! You'll think I'm a dunce, and maybe I am, but I would love to see a youtube video of the entire process. I think that technique has a lot to do with it!
Tina Loyd
Jeff.....I agree with Dan....those phones are stunning. A true labor of love. Outstanding....Doug
Thanks Doug.
Jeff
Quote from: cloyd on November 16, 2016, 05:59:08 PM
John, I would love to see a youtube video of the entire process.
Tina Loyd
Well, John would have to do a little cleaning in his workshop before any film crew is going to move in to do a YouTube there....
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16425.0;attach=147912)
Excellent work John and Jeff, you are getting me thinking about needing a buffer again myself. I have thought about it many times over the years.
Terry
What's wrong with John's shop ? A couple of air fresheners if needed, and it's good to go !
Jeff
So I have been buffing up my bakelite phones using the Brasso method described in this post..I also found out that your buffing wheel doesn't do any good for plastic reciever caps. I was buffing a NE G1 handset with the caps on, and I got a little to close to one of the caps and melted one edge.. you can smell it right away. So keep your buffer on the bakelite.... I know Jeff is having a good laugh....Dennis.
Dennis .... I wouldn't laugh at that ! Well, OK, a little bit. My buffing wheel spins at 1725 rpm. I use flannel buffing wheels and a string buffing wheel. Here's the Reader's Digest version of buffing plastic : sand whatever your going to polish, using wet / dry sand papers, in water. John has the proper sequence insofar as grit is concerned. I end the sanding with 2500 grit wet / dry.
John uses 2000 grit which is fine. There's no big difference between 2000 and 2500. Use a soft flannel wheel, followed by a string buffing wheel. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART WHEN POLISHING PLASTIC, and which you just discovered. "KEEP THE PLASTIC MOVING" AT ALL TIMES". "DO NOT STOP IN ANY ONE SPOT - EVER". If your polishing a plastic handset, like a "G" series, polish the handle portion, and the caps separately, not as one piece. Use a plastic buffing compound, like DICO PBC. Eastwoods also sell a plastic buffing compound in large tubes, but I've found that it's just not as good as DICO's PBC on Bakelite. But it's just as good on plastic.
Coincidentally I just polished a sanded 2500 series Western telephone housing today on my buffer. It came out just fine. I'll post some pictures later showing what it looks like. I'm doing the handset next. Once it's all together, I'll take some pictures. Just to go over buffing plastic : "DO NOT STOP IN ONE PLACE". Keep the part moving, and don't lean into the work piece. Just a light pressure, back and forth, until you get the shine your looking for.
Jeff
Dennis ... I should have included this in my last post. When I say keep the piece moving, I mean fairly quickly, not in a slow motion. The other thing I should have mentioned, was that I wasn't blessed with some sort of "divine plastic polishing" abilities. I overheated several pieces of plastic telephone parts when I was learning the technique. Most everybody goes through that phase when learning to buff plastic. Don't be discouraged, and don't give up. It's all about technique. Practice on something like a black plastic "G" series handset that are a dime a dozen to replace.
Jeff
I need a slower speed buffer for one.. I am looking on line now (Christmas is coming) Thanks for the advice..got lots of NE handsets to practice on. I haven't really moved onto plastic yet as I know it is trickier. Dennis
I'm using a 3450 RPM buffer so the speed at the surface of an 8" wheel is about 82 MPH.
Jeff's buffer doing 1725 RPM has a surface speed of an 8" wheel at about 41 MPH
Yes, I've burned plastic with the faster buffer and it burns much easier. That's why I said to always buff off of an edge. If the wheel catches an edge, the plastic piece not only tries to dig into the wheel but also since the edge is a fine point and not a broad surface, it melts or burns a lot faster.
I have burned flat surfaces as well with my faster buffer and that's Jeff's point about keeping the piece moving. A quick way to learn how to do it is to just barely touch the piece to the wheel as you keep moving the piece. Moving it with the direction of the wheel creates less friction and the wheel does not try to pull the piece into it. If you move the piece against the rotation, it will heat up faster.
So, just touching the plastic to the wheel, right after you remove it and check the temperature with your finger. That will teach you how much pressure you can put on the wheel and for how long.
Having a fast buffer, I can only just barely touch the wheel to get a good shine without buffing. On the other hand, I can push a Bakelite piece into the wheel to the point of deforming the wheel and hearing the motor start to slow. That's a lot of pressure and I do that until the Bakelite gets hot, as I said, about 160 F.
One nice thing about burning plastic is that it can be sanded off and brought back to a nice shine without any notice of the slight amount of plastic that was burned.
One final point is HANG ON TO THE PIECE WELL AND HAVE A STEADY STANCE. Letting a piece get ripped out of you hand due to not the best stance is not good. Be prepared when you take the plastic to the wheel and take it slow. And watch where you are moving the piece. Doing the side of a 500 is easy until you run one of the ears into the wheel - been there, done that, much more careful now. It's a lot less time to do it well the first time, without having to take time to resurface burned areas.
I used the DICO PCB on my soft plastic pink 500 yesterday and got a much improved shine (without burns). Now I'll have to get some 2500 paper. I have micro mesh but that's not practical on Bakelite.
Hope this helps get an understanding of what can be done and the perils encountered in the learning curve. This is the topic that was posted in 2012 that got me started, and the information posted by kleenax shows what can be done with a buffer and plastic.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8217.0
Good point John, about a buffing wheel "grabbing" things out of your hand, and one I'd forgot to mention. I've made what Western and Northern called apparatus blanking plates for the dial openings for 302's, 500 rotary dial sets, and for the more or less square openings on touch tone sets. It's guaranteed to stop any buffing wheel from catching the dial opening and firing it across the room or garage. I learned that trick the "hard way".
Jeff
Found this chart which explains or shows buffing compounds and their use. This only describes "grit," not buffer speed. The very top and bottom lines of the chart come into play with phone work. The lowest grit PBC (blue) is recommended for everything on the chart.
I use Tripoli Compoud for Bakelite polishing on my buffing wheel. It seems to work pretty well, but the plastic needs to be sanded with a higher grit sandpaper first.
Buffing and polishing compounds is a much more complex area that I imagined. The fine work is done by jewelers and dental appliance shops. Then there is the big stuff, automotive and metal shops. These deal with fine metals, metals and paint. As for buffing compounds, they seem to fall into 3 classes, cutting, polishing and buffing with the first using most coarse grit compounds and the last the finest grit compounds. Found this description of each at a jewelry reference site (https://www.ganoksin.com/article/buffing-and-polishing-materials/) buried within a lot of other material.
Tripoli is the "largest grit" and blue (DICO PBC) has the "smallest grit" so as with sandpaper, moving from Tripoli to white rouge to blue rouge may give better final results. Problem is changing wheels - from what I remember, only one compound should be used on one wheel so no carry over would exist. Others who have much more buffing experience than I could better address this issue. Buffing certainly is a well studied and practiced science. As usual, the more one digs into something so seemingly simple finds much complexity.
Cutting Compounds
These include the brown Tripoli and bobbing compound
Intermediate Compounds
These include Gray Tripoli, Graystar, white diamond, and crocus. Platinum Tripoli and yellow bobbing compound.
Polishing Compounds
Some polishing compounds are red rouge, yellow rouge, white rouge, black rouge, green rouge.
Super Finish Compounds
Some would disagree that there is a super finish category, but there are those who believe that there is something above red rouge, so for this discussion we will include it. What is interesting is the range of materials people put into this group. They include blue rouge, Blue magic, Fabuluster, and yes even Zam.
Great advice from everyone. So I got some 600, 800, 1000, 1500, and 2000 grit wet dry sandpapers. My stick of Dico blue arrived on Tuesday as well. I got 2 buffing wheels, one 5 " and one 6 " loose sewn. So after practicing on a few 500 sets I tried my AE 40. Sanded once from 600 to 2000 then a second time from 800 to 2000 grit, then I buffed it all out and then buffed again with the Dico buffing compound. I really like the 800 grit for getting scratches out. The 6" buffing wheel is good for getting in hard spots. I think it turned out pretty good. Dennis
I knew you'd get the "hang of it real quick" ! Fantastic job Dennis.
Jeff
Very nice work, indeed. Looks great . . .
What speed (RPM) buffer were you using?
You did a fine job, Dennis...looks great!
That baby do shine! Outstanding!....Doug
My buffer speed is 3552 rpm on old bench grinder I got from my father in law.
Thanks Jeff, reading all your posts and seeing first hand your work really got me motivated to really "fix up " my old phones.
Thanks for the compliment Doug, I envy your collection of phones and you just kill me when you bring home another "find at the yard sale". Great stuff. Dennis
Thanks Dennis...I do appreciate it....Doug
Hadn't done one of these for a few months so was surprised today on how easy it was to get a Kellogg Gum Drop Bakelite handset to shine up in less than 10 minutes. Impressed myself so much I thought I'd post the images.
Soaked the handset in soapy water to get rid of the dirt. Before pictures are after cleaning with soapy water.
Due to the pitting, used 320 wet sand paper to get a smooth surface. Used 000 steel wool with Brasso to level off the sand marks. Used white rouge (red had no effect - too fine I guess) on my 1800 rpm buffer (a minute or two buffing at the most) to get the after images (yes, that is my Brasso bottle reflected in the close up after). The camera is much more critical than as seen when holding it in room light.
Yes, could have spent more time to make it more shiny but then it gets down to how much shine is too much. It is a 60 year old item, not NOS. Sanded it down to smooth (not pitted) when wiped dry. Could have sanded more with finer grits, might do that when I get to doing the complete handset.
It really shined up quickly. A few minutes to sand it smooth, another minute or two to work it with Brasso and another minute or so to buff it out. This does work nicely and no fear of sanding the surface.
John was it pitted or "browned." I don't see any tiny holes in the before pic that is pitted. It looks more like the Bakelite had browned, which usually comes right of with some fine steel wool. Its more on the very top layer that Bakelite browns, pitted I am thinking an orange peel that a WE receiver cap will get. Just asking.....looks great....Doug
Quote from: Doug Rose on February 17, 2017, 06:47:52 PM
John was it pitted or "browned." I don't see any tiny holes in the before pic that is pitted. It looks more like the Bakelite had browned, which usually comes right of with some fine steel wool. Its more on the very top layer that Bakelite browns, pitted I am thinking an orange peel that a WE receiver cap will get. Just asking.....looks great....Doug
Doug,
Not pits but rivers of lower areas that were shiny black and the brown surface, the high spots, is tough to get off. Doing the whole handset now. 320 wet until the rivers are gone, then 600 wet and 1000 wet to get the 320 marks out. Then to Brasso and the buffer. Need to sand one end of the handset yet before Brasso/wool and the buffer.
FWIW, I've had some success in smoothing out some rough F1s with White Blizzard compound on a spiral sewn wheel. My buffing method however is unorthodox since I don't have a buffing machine (no room to store or use it) but use the wheel on a drill. Lacking a workshop, I find it convenient to do buffing work over my bathtub so that the mess is contained. When done the debris can be vacuumed up. Not the ideal way to buff but it gets the job done given the circumstances.
Quote from: mariepr on May 25, 2017, 06:52:19 AM
FWIW, I've had some success in smoothing out some rough F1s with White Blizzard compound on a spiral sewn wheel. My buffing method however is unorthodox since I don't have a buffing machine (no room to store or use it) but use the wheel on a drill. Lacking a workshop, I find it convenient to do buffing work over my bathtub so that the mess is contained. When done the debris can be vacuumed up. Not the ideal way to buff but it gets the job done given the circumstances.
Interesting. Never heard of White Blizzard so did a bit of research. More common name for it is White Rouge. Every time I do research on buffing compounds or polishes, my head starts to hurt. Quite a complex area. I guess it comes down to personal trial and error and technique and one ends up doing what works best for them. And quite the work shop you have there. Nothing wrong with a pad on a drill, done that before, but the bathtub is new to me. I do major de-liming and rinsing in the tub but a power tool near water is interesting . . . ;)
Found this reference list at a site (http://blog.esslinger.com/guide-to-buffing-compounds-and-their-uses/) so copied here for prosperity. Quite a complete list which is their opinion of what each is best used for and the results. I think buffing compound results are affected by the type of buffing wheel used and the speed of the wheel so each person's experience with any of these may differ. Saying that from my experience.
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Guide to Buffing Compounds and Their Uses
Posted June 12, 2014 by Esslinger Staff
Buffing compounds are used with buffing and polishing wheels to increase the effectiveness of the wheel and to help you accomplish your tasks more quickly. They come in all different types and colors, each uniquely suited to a different aspect of the buffing, cutting, and polishing process. Some are rougher and allow you to quickly remove scratches from various metal surfaces, and others are gentler and designed to provide a beautiful and shining finish to your work. One big difference that you'll notice is the contrast between rouge compounds and tripoli compounds: rouges are typically used for polishing and finishing work whereas the tripoli compounds are used for cutting and buffing to remove scratches from the metal. Below we have compiled a list of our most common buffing compounds to help you tell the difference and choose the one that is right for you.
Black Emery CompoundThis compound is filled with emery minerals to give it top notch cutting qualities making it the perfect compound for removing scratches, small pits, plating, paint, antiquing, lacquer and more from metallic surfaces. For big jobs and work that requires a lot of work to remove rough surfaces or deep scratches, you should always start with this compound because it will save you hours of work and effort. It even starts the polishing process for you, typically leaving metals with a fair shine on the surface when you are done.
Brown TripoliThis tripoli compound is designed for its general purpose use for both buffing and polishing work. The compound can easily cut and remove scratches while leaving a smooth finish. It is the best compound to use on softer metals like brass, copper, aluminum and various pot metals. It can also be safely used on things like stainless steel and wood surfaces, giving the wood a lustrous finish when you are done.
White RougeWhite rouge compounds are a great finishing compound, particularly for harder metals like chrome and things that have been nickel plated. It will provide a light level of cutting edge to your buffing wheel giving those harder metals a brilliant shine when you are finished.
Also known as a blizzard compound, it can be used provide a final finish to harder metals, or lighter cutting action on softer ones.
Water Soluble Red RougeThis compound works in the same way that regular red rouge will: it gives a superb high quality polished finish to the metals that you use it with, and it is especially effective for use on gold, silver and other precious metals. What makes this compound unique from typical red rouge, is that it is also water soluble so breaks down much more easily and can be cleaned away just with the help of water.
Red Rouge/Jeweler's RougeThe red rouge compound is commonly referred to as jeweler's rouge because it is used extensively by jewelers and because of the unsurpassed level of high quality polishing it provides to gold, silver and many other precious metals. In very little time, this rouge will reveal the true colors of each metal, and they will shine like new. It is also safe to use on pieces that have thin layers of plating.
Green RougeThis green rouge is a compound that is designed to provide a high luster finish on hard and soft metals. While this compound can easily and safely be used on hard and soft metals, it works best on things like chrome, stainless steel, and platinum, which is the reason that sometimes this compound is known as Stainless Steel compound. It will leave a brighter and better finish than you will get with a white rouge compound.
Tan Bobbing CompoundThe tan bobbing compound is known for its fast cutting action, making quick work of removing light scratches and things like fire-scale from metal. It is an ideal pre-polishing compound, easily smoothing the surface of the precious metals like gold and silver to ready the surface for polishing. It works best when it is used with a buffing wheel, brush and lap work machine.
PolinumPolinum is a rouge that is commonly known as Orange-Glow. This is a specialty compound was designed to allow you to polish platinum, white gold, yellow gold, and stainless steel. It provides a powerful polishing action that produces an unbelievable sparkling gloss to your metals. Originally designed to be used on watch cases and watch bands, Polinum is great for watchmakers and is frequently used by Rolex repairmen to bring a watch back up to its original luster.
Blue MagicThis compound was engineered just for working on platinum. It provides an unmatched polishing shine to platinum jewelry and metals, as well as giving other precious metals like gold a beautiful glimmer.
FabulustreFabulustre is a unique and specialty one step buffing and polishing compound. It was designed to provide a high luster finish to all kinds of precious metals from gold to silver, as well as other decorative metals. The compound easily removes light scratches to produce a mirror-bright final finish to your work piece in no time at all without discoloring while you work.
ZamZam is another specialty compound designed uniquely for working on silver and turquoise jewelry. The special formulation is gentle and will not scratch the delicate stones, making it ideal to use on jewelry that you need to polish but could not easily remove the stones to protect them from harsher polishing compounds. It leaves a high luster finish without a residue making it a versatile polishing compound.
So I am going to clean up some Bakelite AE 40's and 50's. Mostly stuff going on Facebook Marketplace or to a local antique store. Reading through these buffing topics I think I've figured out the problem. I'm lazy. I have one buffer with two wheels. Want to be able to buff up bakelite and plastic phones but at this point I am not attempting to do fabulous work like I have seen by some of you. Just decent work. Don't really want to have to change wheels constantly either.
So, I am looking for compromises. Thinking brown Tripoli and PBC blue thinking these two might spiff up Bakelite and for plastics I can just head straight to the blue most of the time. Maybe that is too big of a range...should have white rouge in between? Probably but obviously some sanding should be happening as well but I'm not that into this ... so far. Or, maybe decent Bakelite doesn't need something A's course as Tripoli. I guess I should concede to change wheels more so I can have at least Brown, white and blue available to me.
One friend says he has two buffers and four wheels on the go. That would be a good arrangement.
Just thinking out loud....
Terry
I am lazy enough to consider a 2nd buffer so you don't have to change wheels.
Jim S.
Yes I guess that is a good point if you can make the room for it. So, I just used the Brown Tripoli only and am quite happy with the results for my purposes. I had an unused spiral sewn wheel that I intended on using with the Tripoli but lost my mind and put it onto a loose sewn wheel that I had used some red rouge on previously. I didn't find Red Rouge to be good on plastic anyway but I had intended on trying the spiral sewn wheel with the coarser Tripoli. I am using 6" wheels on a 2000-3450 RPM variable speed buffer, same buffer Duffy and Santa Clause use!
So, making progress here...slowly.
Terry