Classic Rotary Phones Forum

Telephone Identification, Repair & Restoration => Technical "Stuff" => AE => Topic started by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 12:06:11 PM

Title: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 12:06:11 PM
Here is an attempt to summarize the patents listed on the decals and labels of Automatic Electric Type 40, 50, etc telephone sets.

This currently includes only the early stamps and labels of ca. 1939, and Form  D-780504 in its various versions.
This is a work in progress.  I left empty columns for version that we know about, but I have not recorded in detail yet.  If anyone wants to record the missing information, please feel free to print the table and fill with check marks or add patents, or communicate somehow your findings.

The patent labels from Northlake starting in 1957 (D-780575-A), did not have patents listed anymore, at least those that I have found.

Sorry that the table is just a screenshot of my working version.  I format this in wiki markup. It would of course be nice to reformat the table in SMF forum markup here.  A spreadsheet would certainly be easiest to maintain, but that has its drawbacks for me.  My original table has hyperlinks to my patent database, so I can pull up each patent instantly on the screen.



PS:  Original table has been removed.  This is the latest update.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 12:26:58 PM
These decals were issued in many versions of the same basic form number.  We are missing many of the intermediate versions.
In addition the same form number was issued in at least three 'letter versions':  A, B, and C.

I included two columns, B19 and C21 with some data in them. These are for wall phones.  B19 is complete from my record, I think I have C data as well somewhere, but haven't located it yet.  In any case, by the example of the B19 data, we could speculate that the issue numbers following the letters A, B, and C might actually be sequenced irrespective of the letter code.
For example AE may have incremented the issue across the letter codes, as follows:

A1,..., A18, B19, ..., C21, ..., A28, ...

This might explain why there are so many different issues numbers, from 1 to 46 in only a span of 15 years or so.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 12:51:07 PM
Good project Unbeldi! This should eventually provide one method to somewhat narrow down the manufacture date of any particular example of an AE40 or AE50 as well as other AE models in the same timeframe as long as the phone has an intact Patent label.

Good idea to keep it separate from the Base Code discussions as well since it isn't directly related to the base codes.

I have always had a very poor understanding of these labels on AE phones and I have paid little attention to the actual patents.

To help me understand, there is only the one label/ink stamp with form number D-780504 used on these phones but there are different "issue numbers" , for example the -A19 extension? I thought I saw a couple of references to a D-780503 label in the AE Base Code discussion and I meant to ask if that was a typo or not. Most often this label is a gold water transfer type label but both paper labels and ink stamp labels are also possible.

With regards to each -Axx extension, the exact same patent numbers will always be on any one particular example, say the -A19 extension for example? Your chart records each patent that is on each of the different D-780504 -Axx labels. Thus in my Excel list of Base Codes I really only need to record that "label extension" number. I think you said that somewhere already...just making certain.

I will be happy to look for labels that aren't on your chart as well as the ones that are on your chart but with missing patent info. I can send it to you or post it here for you to add to your chart.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 01:32:09 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 12:51:07 PM
Good project Unbeldi! This should eventually provide one method to somewhat narrow down the manufacture date of any particular example of an AE40 or AE50 as well as other AE models in the same timeframe as long as the phone has an intact Patent label.

Good idea to keep it separate from the Base Code discussions as well since it isn't directly related to the base codes.

I have always had a very poor understanding of these labels on AE phones and I have paid little attention to the actual patents.

To help me understand, there is only the one label/ink stamp with form number D-780504 used on these phones but there are different "issue numbers" , for example the -A19 extension? I thought I saw a couple of references to a D-780503 label in the AE Base Code discussion and I meant to ask if that was a typo or not. Most often this label is a gold water transfer type label but both paper labels and ink stamp labels are also possible.

With regards to each -Axx extension, the exact same patent numbers will always be on any one particular example, say the -A19 extension for example? Your chart records each patent that is on each of the different D-780504 -Axx labels. Thus in my Excel list of Base Codes I really only need to record that "label extension" number. I think you said that somewhere already...just making certain.

I will be happy to look for labels that aren't on your chart as well as the ones that are on your chart but with missing patent info. I can send it to you or post it here for you to add to your chart.

Terry

Yes, the label versions shown  with A, B, or C version numbers are all the same form number  D-780504.   I'll go back to see if I mistyped that previously.
It is quite possible of course that other label D-numbers exist, in fact, we know they exist, but I doubt they would pertain to standard Type 40 sets.  Perhaps they exist for sets with special features, I don't know.  Only careful recording of samples will help with that.

I have seen the same form number-version-issue (or whatever terms we might use) in slightly different layouts on the decal, but containing the identical information.  I do not record those differences, but I do keep images too.  In a wiki, it is easier to keep them all on one page, just a long list of each type, which is my original format. But that is hard to share and doesn't provide the easier cross-reference that this new table does.

Some decals also came in form of an ink stamp.

I have not yet included the transition from Chicago to Chicago 7 in the year assignments.  That transition appears to have happened before  –A1 came out, i.e. in the transition period from stamps and paper labels to golden decals.  I think you are placing that transition in 1943 (?), so the A1 year could be updated to that.

There is some oddity with the sequencing of the versions after A18, they do not contain the 1948 patent that is on A18.  But I assigned them to 1948 just as well for now, because it seems unlikely they would have decremented issue numbers.  They probably just decided not to list that patent anymore (dial improvements).
Finding more intermediate versions of the decals might help here.

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 02:03:13 PM
With Automatic Electric, if there is just an occasional "oddity" in something we should probably consider ourselves lucky!

I can't recall where I got the info about the Chicago -> Chicago 7 change. I wrote the info down when I heard it somewhere possibly on one of "the lists". It was the year (1943) that the Chicago Post Office introduced Postal Stations or whatever they are called in the USA so all existing mailing addresses had a digit added after Chicago. I thought this would be fairly easy to Google but I must be using the wrong terminology as I can't find any reference online at the moment.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 02:06:38 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 02:03:13 PM
With Automatic a Electric, if there is just an occasional "oddity" in something we should probably consider ourselves lucky!

I can't recall where I got the info about the Chicago -> Chicago 7 change. I wrote the info down when I heard it somewhere possibly on one of "the lists". It was the year (1943) that the Chicago Post Office introduced Postal Stations or whatever they are called in the USA so all existing mailing addresses had a digit added after Chicago. I thought this would be fairly easy to Google but I must be using the wrong terminology as I can't find any reference online at the moment.

Terry

Ah yes.   Wikipedia reports that "The United States Post Office Department (USPOD) implemented postal zones for numerous large cities in 1943."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_Code
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 02:40:33 PM
Looking for some of the missing info in my Excel lists. So far I have records of sets with labels A7, A28, A32, A46, B23, C21. But unfortunately they were all before I started recording the actual patent numbers and none are from my phones.

A7 was on an eBay Chinese Red Chicago-7 AE40 set but I have no L/N numbers recorded. I have that the label had 12 patents plus the Des #117876 but not sure I have ever seen more than 11 patents on a label, could be a counting error.

A28 was in an eBay Old Ivory Chicago-7 AE40 L4125 BSLE SN7 set and label had 6 patents plus the Des #.

A32 was on an eBay Jade Green Chicago-7 AE40 L4044 D50D EH7 set with 8 patents plus des #.

The two A46 labels are on L4111 Chicago-7 AE 47 sets and the good news is one of the records is a 47 belonging to Stub. So Stub, can you find it and report all of the details on the label? The other label was on a 47 reported to me by CRPF "GG" who vanished from this forum several years ago. Both had 9 patents listed plus the Des #.

Three B23 labels are showing up on AE50 sets but none on my sets so far. One was reported to me by CRPF "Argee". I will see if he is still active and try PMing or emailing him. Others were eBay recorded sets. Two L5102 sets and one L5100

The single C21 label I saw was on an eBay AE 43 set and had a Chicago-7 label. That's all I have on it.

Lots more of my phones to go through to record info still. I know this info above is of no use to you Unbeldi but just letting you know what I have seen. Stub can help with that 47 set of his.

Terry

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 05:09:30 PM
Here is the A46 label supplied by Stub from his AE L4111 47 set.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 05:16:24 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 10, 2017, 05:09:30 PM
Here is the A46 label supplied by Stub from his AE L4111 47 set.

Already added the info to my database.
The label is identical to the A41 label, with the exception of the addition of the patent for the multi-line set.
US2589180 1952 1949 Wood etal AEL--Multiline Telephone Substation Instrument and Circuit

[PS: old table image removed, see newer post with update.]
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
I find it somewhat interesting that AE would create these decals, starting with –A1, during the war.
Just like WECo, AE must have been under order to not produce telephones starting in 1942, at least not for civilian use.
WECo was allowed to start manufacturing again in limited numbers by end of 1944 or so, so I am assuming that AE was treated similarly.
Perhaps these decals were not actually created until 1944 or even later.  I also have no patent assignment for 1943 to 1945 that one could expect on labels. There are applications, for example several handset locking mechanisms that I think was used on ships for wall sets.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 07:07:41 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
Just like WECo, AE must have been under order to not produce telephones starting in 1942, at least not for civilian use.

Depends how you look at it I suppose. Civilian manufacturing continued but the equipment was exported.

Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 08:26:42 PM
Quote from: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 07:07:41 PM
Depends how you look at it I suppose. Civilian manufacturing continued but the equipment was exported.

Jack
I don't think so.  The war need was probably very small compared to the normal production and might have been filled in a few months time.
By the time WECo was authorized again to produce telephones, they did not have the manufacturing capability to produce even a few ten thousand sets that were authorized, and had to purchase a factory to restart manufacturing. The equipment from that factory was later moved back to Hawthorn once space was made available once again.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: Jack Ryan on January 10, 2017, 09:05:00 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on January 10, 2017, 08:26:42 PM
I don't think so.  The war need was probably very small compared to the normal production and might have been filled in a few months time.
By the time WECo was authorized again to produce telephones, they did not have the manufacturing capability to produce even a few ten thousand sets that were authorized, and had to purchase a factory to restart manufacturing. The equipment from that factory was later moved back to Hawthorn once space was made available once again.

Yes, it certainly slowed significantly but it did not stop so some capability remained or was easy to convert from other production.

The point I was making, even though minor, was that production did continue and there are WE telephones with all dates during (US) WW2. It is more difficult to tell if AE continued to make telephones during WW2 because of a lack of dates. It is possible though by the change in some materials.

Regards
Jack
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 11, 2017, 12:05:34 AM
Moved the posts about transmitter/receiver codes, and RFI Suppressor dials to the "other" topic where they should have been.

Starts here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17379.msg180100#msg180100

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: andre_janew on January 11, 2017, 01:21:11 PM
I've thought that AE was at least making dials during WW2.  As I understand it, WE's 4H and 5H dials didn't meet military standards and WE 302 phones with AE dials were used by the military.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 13, 2017, 12:40:36 PM
Here are the new labels that appear to be from the year when AE moved from Chicago 7 to Northlake.

In form number D-780575 all patent numbers have been removed and the label simply functions as a Trademark label for the US and Canada.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 14, 2017, 10:50:35 AM
Similar labels were applied to the AE 80 sets, which also were converted to simple trademark labels as shown here.
It's perhaps a bit of a diversion here, but I think we need to look at the other telephone types a little for assistance in decoding the 40 and 50-type designations.   To me it seems that the themes of the markings almost continuously extended through the product lines, going back the Monophones in the 1930s, perhaps earlier, but especially the 34A3.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 14, 2017, 05:03:39 PM
Agreed! There are definitely similarities in the coding between 40's and 80's and as we have discussed recently the 34 sets also had "L" codes like many of the 40's had. Comparisons of codes from before and after the AE 40 timeframe will certainly help.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 18, 2017, 10:32:21 PM
Does any one have an AE 40 with a label like this ?
It should be a local battery set without dial and possibly with external magneto generator box.

I cannot be sure of the decal number:   D-780504-A5    Is it A5 or A3 ?

=====
PS: It seems to be  A3 !

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 27, 2017, 07:11:42 PM
So what is this 780613 gold sticker on Stockdale's AE40?

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 27, 2017, 07:37:53 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 27, 2017, 07:11:42 PM
So what is this 780613 gold sticker on Stockdale's AE40?

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0

Terry

I have that label from that phone in my collection already. I think I may have responded in that topic.
It is rather strange, because it is essentially the same as the other 1952 labels, but this one is has the location listed as "Chicago", rather than Chicago 7.
I don't think it is a gold decal, but white paper sticker, that has yellowed or has some kind of spray on it.
I don't quite know what to make of it, it could well be fake—it seems typewritten with a more modern type writer. The font type seems different than other decals.


Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 27, 2017, 07:42:23 PM
Here is my worked-up image of that label.

Except for the patent numbers themselves, it looks rather authentic.

It has the same patents as the D-780504-A41 label, plus one, namely US2068700, which was a dial patent of 1937.  Don't understand why this was still on here. It doesn't fit the pattern for label after 1948 or so.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 27, 2017, 07:58:00 PM
Yes, paper label. I didn't notice that initially and automatically I called it a gold decal. Being a Chicago rather than Chicago 7 it is early from when other phones had ink stamps or paper labels on felt bases. So one other variation of a paper label on the bottom rather than n ink stamp and maybe before gold decals began or possibly due to war shortages again.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on January 27, 2017, 08:05:36 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on January 27, 2017, 07:58:00 PM
Yes, paper label. I didn't notice that initially and automatically called it a gold decal. Being a Chicago rather than Chicago 7 it is early when other phones had ink stamps or paper labels on felt bases. So one other variation of a paper label on the bottom rather than ink stamp and maybe before gold decals began or possibly war shortages again.

Terry

Well, the designation of only "Chicago" must be wrong.  It was either an error, or  the label is fake and someone created a blank (no patents) label and typed the patents on the blank with a typewriter.  The label contains two patents that were assigned much later after the postal zoning of 1943.

The form number D-780504 was created around 1942 or so.  D-780504-A1 already bears "Chicago 7".  This form number is only a little larger, so was perhaps also still created before the cutover.  We have to look for other examples, perhaps on other telephone types.
Title: Fake AE patent labels
Post by: unbeldi on January 28, 2017, 11:59:10 AM
I brought up that the label D-780613 could possibly be a fake.   This is speculation based on the obvious discrepancy between postal zone and patent numbers cited.

However, collectors should be aware that truly fake decals are being distributed by eBay sellers. One such seller, oldphoneshop, places the same fake labels on all kinds of AE telephones, without regard to model, type, or manufacturing period.  Upon inquiry, the seller was even rude and defended the labels as original and present as found. These are high-priced telephones, nicely refinished.  Buyer beware.   The seller even places this one type of decal on Type 35 wall phones.

The decal is for a Type 40 desk set, manufactured ca. 1948 to 1949.
These labels are easily recognized by the omission of one digit ("5") in the form number, as can be seen in the lower left corner of the attached image.
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on January 28, 2017, 12:07:14 PM
Yes good point. I knew that there was a reproduction version out there. I wonder if there has just been the one reproduction produced for collectors and refurbishers. Good to see that someone seems to have at least gone out of their way to remove the 5 to make it more identifiable by those in the know.

Thanks for posting the image along with the explanation.

Terry
Title: Fake AE patent labels
Post by: unbeldi on January 28, 2017, 12:23:03 PM
Here are samples of the original versions of that fake label.
Looking closely, you will find small variations in details, but all bear the same patent numbers.
The label was issued as water decal and as an ink stamp (first and last image).
Title: Automatic Electric Co Type 44 labels
Post by: unbeldi on February 08, 2017, 03:50:44 PM
Does anyone have a Type 44 Monophone that has a golden decal on it ?  The Type 44 was a metal box wall subscriber set with a dial in the front and a Type 41 handset on the side.

AE also made a Type 42 wall set with handheld receiver, but I think it may have no longer been made by the time AE introduced the decals. I have only seen them with an ink stamp of patents. From the outside it looked essentially identical to a Type 21  (21+21 = 42, an overtone,  8)).

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on February 08, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
Yes, I have one. Stub has one as well but my notes indicate that his has no gold decal or ink stamp listing patents or patent years.

Here is info for my AE44:

Decal is D-780575-A15. Chicago 7. 4 patent years 1939, 1943, 1945 & 1953 listed.

Base code is another example of the H#'s. H870729 25 PD-4.
That H # is identical to the number on one of my AE 47 sets.
The AE47 has H870729 18 PD-8 on its base and has the exact same Chicago 7 decal on it, H87079 A13.

Both these phones were in use in BC. I wonder if that particular H number could be for a phone made in USA for Canada? Or for BC Tel in Canada? Odd there is no reference to the normal L or N type numbers at all.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on February 08, 2017, 05:21:58 PM
Quote from: AE_Collector on February 08, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
Yes, I have one. Stub has one as well but my notes indicate that his has no gold decal or ink stamp listing patents or patent years.

Here is info for my AE44:

Decal is D-780575-A15. Chicago 7. 4 patent years 1939, 1943, 1945 & 1953 listed.

Base code is another example of the H#'s. H870729 25 PD-4.
That H # is identical to the number on one of my AE 47 sets.
The AE47 has H870729 18 PD-8 on its base and has the exact same Chicago 7 decal on it, H87079 A13.

Both these phones were in use in BC. I wonder if that particular H number could be for a phone made in USA for Canada? Or for BC Tel in Canada? Odd there is no reference to the normal L or N type numbers at all.

Terry

Interesting that it has only years on it.  The only other AE sets with patent years are usually the sets made in Brockville, Ontario.
Perhaps these were for export to Canadian customers, for whom it would perhaps be awkward to see US patents on instruments.  By using years, the label is perhaps legally applicable to Canada, as AE filed many patents in Canada as well.

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on February 08, 2017, 05:34:29 PM
I guess I am holding out for D-780504 labels with a D suffix.  For example, D2, D4, D5, D6, D10 and various others with higher numbers.
I have a total of fifty slots to fill with A, B, C, or perhaps D suffices, and so far I have about 20.

A =>  AE 40 and AE 47
B =>  AE 50
C =>  AE 43
D =>  ?????
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on February 08, 2017, 06:11:52 PM
I made an error in the decal number above, it is D-780575-A13 not -A15.

The AE 44 has:
Cast zinc cased 51A numbers only dial with code JF-7
Large "low impedance" SL ringer.
2 in 1 Condenser coded JF
The Transmitter capsule is an AECo 81 with code NF.
The Receiver capsule is a Type 41 with code NE.

So the two capsules are coded close enough to assume they are original to the handset. Presumably (as we discussed earlier) they started using Transmitter Capsules marked for 80 sets in Type 41 handsets towards the end of production of phones using Type 41 handsets.

Dial and Condenser "Two Letter Codes" match each other "JF"

Back of case has "Two Letter Code" PD-4.

So none of the Two Letter Codes Match up too well though the second letter is D or E or F. The first letters range from J to N to P.

Terry
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: unbeldi on February 08, 2017, 06:25:46 PM
I still go by the rule that the two-letter code should be the same on factory-original sets, whether being type 41 or 81 elements, but that is based on only few observations.
Based on that I would call the handset as being replaced, or perhaps just its elements.


I am curious to find out why that decal has such high number on the suffix.  Were there really 13 versions of this decal also?
Here is that decal number D-780575  with the simple suffix "A", which clearly was created after the move to Northlake.
I hadn't anticipated that Type 44 Monophones were still made that late.   So something is "strange" about the sequence numbering of this type of decal.  Perhaps strangeness is a fundamental property of all AE markings.


[PS: oh, i already showed that decal earlier in this thread. oh well.]
Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on November 18, 2017, 10:47:28 PM
Quote from: unbeldi on January 18, 2017, 10:32:21 PM
Does any one have an AE 40 with a label like this ?
It should be a local battery set without dial and possibly with external magneto generator box.

I cannot be sure of the decal number:   D-780504-A5    Is it A5 or A3 ?

=====
PS: It seems to be  A3 !

Here's one on eBay at the moment:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/182788050714

Terry

Title: Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
Post by: AE_Collector on November 19, 2017, 11:48:08 AM
Here's another AE phone using a "C3" suffix code. I'm not certain what model this is...is it a type 44 or something else? My type 44 has a handset hook that holds the handset sideways to the phone body just like a space saver type 43 does where as this one the handset is held straight on like an AE90. This is quite extensively redone inside...was it possibly a railroad phone initially?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132399380952