Brass Candlesticks

[Doug Rose]

I know the theory that brass was bad and NO candlesticks ever left the WE factory BRASS. Understood. I have collected telephones over 35 years and found many brass sticks without an iota of black paint. ZIP! These were not lamps, totally beat on brass candlesticks. Manual and dial.

I love brass like I do bakelite (sorry) and there have been very few that I could not bring back to a shiny brass finish. There were some part dogs.

That being said, I do not believe that brass candlesticks were not sent out by WE. Way too many passed through my hands with absolutely NO black paint inside or out. How would this be explained? Were collectors stripping phones completely in the 40s or 50s? I mean NO black paint anywhere. NONE! I cannot get a perfectly clean brass stick that has black paint on it. There are nooks and crannies that are almost impossible to remove.  Just saying??....Doug

[dencins]

Doug

I have never seen a WECo candlestick listed in any catalog or BSP with a brass finish.  I have seen black and nickel finish but never brass.  As an example in the 20XX series of candlesticks there are some letters for black finish and some for nickel finish but none for brass finish.

If you could locate a document that lists a brass finish model it would help support your theory.

Dennis Hallworth     

[Doug Rose]

Hey  Dennis...all I can say is if you can find a Color WE 302 made in softplastic with a painted handset in the in any BSPs..... I would congratulate you. BUT I own a Blood Red (color of a 500 set) and had a Green and an Ivory (not as dramatic of a difference).  Never made it to a BSP.  Hmmmm.

Too many paint free Brass sticks out there. I am not an expert...but I am a realsit. How did this happen?....Doug

[Sargeguy]

I am not an expert...but I am a realsit. How did this happen?...

A soak in ammonia usually does the trick, although you may need to do some additional scrubbing with steel wool. 

[dencins]

Doug

I was getting ready to strip and replate a nickel candlestick and I realized one way it could happen without much effort.

First I took the phone apart.  Second I put the parts in nickel stripper and the result is no nickel anywhere on any of the parts.

While it is not common today, plating shops used to be very common before EPA and overseas manufacturing took over.  When manufacturing was common, anyone could take a phone to a plating shop and they would strip the old nickel by putting it in their stripping tank.  Since plating shops made errors, all plating shops had stripping tanks.  For nickel one way to remove nickel was to use hydrochloric acid.  Another way it can be done is to reverse plate it.  Once the nickel was removed the parts could be polished.  Stripping nickel at that time would be very inexpensive.

I do the same thing with painted candlesticks but obviously use paint stripper. 

A WECo non-dial candlestick has 6 major parts (base, stem, perch, switch hook, back cup and transmitter face plate).  The other parts that need stripping are the transmitter to back cup screws (4) and mounting bolt (4 parts).  It is very easy for someone to take it apart.

As far as colored 302's in 500 colors and painted handsets - how about C32.502,i8.  You can find it here:

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=3302&Itemid=2

Dennis Hallworth

[Doug Rose]

thanks Dennis....good information. I am still skeptical but you have the facts on your side.

Thanks for BSP on the color 302s in softpastic with painted handsets......Doug

[G-Man]

thanks Dennis....good information. I am still skeptical but you have the facts on your side.

Thanks for BSP on the color 302s in softpastic with painted handsets......Doug

Doug-

It is very possible that deskstands with brass finishes rolled-off of the assembly line though I am not sure that it was ever in great quantities.

Though not promoted, subscribers were able to special order almost any color as long as they were willing to accept the added expense and time to complete their order.

Thus the misses could have a telephone that matched the drapes or wallpaper at the summer estate in the Hamptons.

Also, there were special finishes and custom configurations that were produced as retirement gifts for workers and executives of Western Electric, AT&T and the Bell Companies as well as for their influential customers. The 24-carat gold plated finish on Eisenhower's telephone is one example of an option that never made it into the BSP's or catalogs.

The customized telephones for the Military and the floor of the New York Stock Exchange are other examples.

[BDM]

I have a 51AL completely stripped of paint down to the brass, but all original with it's parts down to the #2 dial. I actually had thoughts of either nickel or chrome plating it. Yeah I know not original, but neither would the new paint be. Personally I'm not a fan of the brass color. But if you like it, so be it. Keep it brass whether they originally did it or not. Heck Doug it's not like your collection lacks a proper example of one of these W.E. sticks, so have at it

[K1WI]

   Just wanted to toss my two cents in .  I strongly agree with Doug on this issue. i do want to dispel what I think is a bit of a myth , that Western never made polished brass phones. I spent 35 years "hanging around" telephone central offices and saw many early phones in brass over the years.  Most "switchmen I knew would never had taken time to strip the paint off or polish anything , so I have to assume they were made that way .
  I have a dial deskstand that was on a "wirechiefs" desk , a 20SP from an RSB  , and several 1008 switchboard hanging sets all in nice shiney brass.  I also have a very short shaft 20 (marked 4m on perch) on a scissor bracket in brass that came out of an old New York Central train station.
   Though BSPs are the best  guide as to "company polices and procedures" they are not the 100% absolute answer.   As we used to joke " We always do it the same way once".  I'm sure the answer is out there somewhere.
   

     Andy F    K1WI

[Doug Rose]

thanks guys...I appreciate your input on this....Doug

[Dan/Panther]

[/quote]Thus the misses could have a telephone that matched the drapes or wallpaper at the summer estate in the Hamptons. [/quote]

Yeah all is fine, but did the carpet match the drapes ?
D/P

[Slal]

Don't mean to barge in here, since novice to the hobby, but respectfully ask:  Are catalogs always the last word?

Reason I ask is that I also collect antique fountain pens-- have been for quite a long time.

For antique pens, some models weren't always in the catalogs.  Pen historians then fall back on documentation like advertisements in publications like American Stationer.  Other pens, they simply don't know.  One example is a Waterman coin filler pen.  It was probably only in production for less than a year.  One theory is that it was put into production early, then canceled when they got around a patent for a sleeve to go over the lever bar.  (The part you'd press with your coin.)

So now Waterman company would have these extra pens, and have to decide what to do with them.  Like any business, they might've just sold the one's they'd made rather than take a loss.  Pen fanciers know they're out there (and if you find one while looking for phones you've hit paydirt!) but their history is still something of a mystery.

Point being-- for telephones-- are other sources (advertising, authenticated photographs from the period, etc.) also legitimate documentation for phone history?  Just curious!

thx

--Bruce

[poplar1]

Western Electric Catalogs
Bell System Practices (BSPs)
Bell System Repair Specs (used in the repair shop at the WE Distributing Houses)---these seem to be non-existent
As found sets

[Sargeguy]

I know some manufacturers made phones that featured brass or bronze finishes on all or part of the phone.  No one can say with any certainty if this was done by Western Electric-we can just speculate.  Photos are no help because brass and nickel would look the same.   A catalog or other official reference would be ideal.

Personally, I think Western Electric would have been reluctant to part with unfinished phones.  They were pretty anal about finishes, to the extent that they had different model numbers for candlesticks that were different colors.   I would expect, for Western Electric at least, that there would be a different designation stamped into the perch that signified a brass finish.  They marked every candlestick, and re-marked it if any changes were made to it.  If a 20-B was painted black it was marked 20-S.  So far we have not uncovered any marking that signified a brass finish. 

I estimate about 1/2 the brass phones show evidence of once having been lamps.  More have probably had the lampification reversed.  Many other brass candlesticks have missing or mismatched parts, due to the hand of Dr. Frankenphone.  Many had worn or ugly paint and were polished up by antique dealers to make them more attractive to buyers, or was done by owners of the phones.  The paint looks awful, so you strip it and discover that it is solid brass. So then you decide that it would be a shame to cover up all that lovely brass that would look nice polished up.  I have bought a few phones from guys who have brassed them out on grinding wheels, etc.  I have parts that represent botched attempts at this, showing scratches and other marks. 

Presentation or custom orders had the option of a painted  brass or gold finish.  Maybe some were brassed out and given as retirement gifts.  Maybe some made it out of the factory as prototypes, or samples, but I do not think it was official, or commonplace.  If you have a brassed out Western Electric phone the likelihood is that it did not leave the factory in that condition. 

[dencins]

I have seen many different documents that have been used as reference.  Most obvious for Western Electric telephones are the Bell System Procedures (BSP's) and Western Electric Catalogs.  There are several books that I have seen referenced including Kate Dooner's "Telephone Collecting" and Ralph Meyer's "Old-Time Telephones" among others.  Company advertising, company publications (I like "From the Far Corners of the Earth" for manufacturing processes) and authenticated time-period photos (i.e. Chicago World's Fair is seen often) also can be used.  I have seen engineering "white papers", research notes, outlines from symposiums, correspondence letters, invoices, dating on parts, etc. that document specific items.  I am sure there are other sources. 

What I do not consider valid are conjecture, supposition, opinion, intuition, hearsay, quoting an unknown source, etc.           

BTW a quick Google of Waterman Coin Filled Pen brought me to an original company advertisement that I would consider a valid document to say the pen existed at some point in time.

Dennis Hallworth