That AE 21 I'm working on only had one screw and one mickey-moused rigged pin that didn't really fit but held it in place. The one correct screw is a slotted round head, 4-36 X 1/2 inch. One local place that specializes in screws said they have to special-order them, and they come in quantities of 100 at 52 cents each, i.e. $52 per box of 100.
Another source online said the only charge $4.42 for a box of 100, but they they have a $10 minimum order, plus tax and shipping. That would be 300 of those little buggers I would have to order.
So, my question is, how common are 4-36 X 1/2 screws for vintage dial use? I wouldn't mind buying a quantity if they are commonly used in various phones, but 300 of them is still a bit much.
Yes, I have other dials to compare, but what a pain it would be to drag them all out and start taking the dials off to compare.
Quote from: Brinybay on January 28, 2013, 05:02:20 PM
That AE 21 I'm working on only had one screw and one mickey-moused rigged pin that didn't really fit but held it in place. The one correct screw is a slotted round head, 4-36 X 1/2 inch. One local place that specializes in screws said they have to special-order them, and they come in quantities of 100 at 52 cents each, i.e. $52 per box of 100.
Another source online said the only charge $4.42 for a box of 100, but they they have a $10 minimum order, plus tax and shipping. That would be 300 of those little buggers I would have to order.
So, my question is, how common are 4-36 X 1/2 screws for vintage dial use? I wouldn't mind buying a quantity if they are commonly used in various phones, but 300 of them is still a bit much.
Yes, I have other dials to compare, but what a pain it would be to drag them all out and start taking the dials off to compare.
Yep; they're all 4-36 screws, albeit of various lengths. If you bought 300 of them, you would have no problem selling them off to fellow collectors.
You know, I take that back; some of the North Electric 3" dials seem to balk when you try to switch screws in them, and when you try and use the North-supplied screws with say, a Western Electric dial, they seem to cross-thread. They (the North screws) also have a smaller, almost "fillister" type head on them, and are used with little washers.
So, I will change that to all but North 3" dials ;)
If you can't find them locally, OPW has them.
http://www.oldphoneworks.com/_search.php?page=1&q=dial+screws
( Dead link - 3/4/24 )
If you only need a few, I have some. I usually buy 100 a year or so from Paul Vaverchak.
Another place to look for 4-36 thread is pre-WWII Lionel train collectors. Lionel used many different lengths on model trains. One place you can find them is Train Tender (Jeff Kane). It looks like the screw in your picture is 5/16" (measure the length of round head machine screws from the bottom of the head to the end of the thread) . The price listed for 4-36 x 5/16" round head slotted machine screws is a package of 25 for $0.12 each screw. His site is here:
http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html
Scroll down until you get to screws. He has several sizes but the longest round head is 5/16".
Dennis Hallworth
Quote from: dencins on January 28, 2013, 09:07:48 PM
Another place to look for 4-36 thread is pre-WWII Lionel train collectors. Lionel used many different lengths on model trains. One place you can find them is Train Tender (Jeff Kane). It looks like the screw in your picture is 5/16" (measure the length of round head machine screws from the bottom of the head to the end of the thread) . The price listed for 4-36 x 5/16" round head slotted machine screws is a package of 25 for $0.12 each screw. His site is here:
http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html (http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html)
Scroll down until you get to screws. He has several sizes but the longest round head is 5/16".
Dennis Hallworth
Or maybe even 3/8"?
Looking at the new picture I would agree with 3/8".
Dennis Hallworth
Quote from: dencins on January 28, 2013, 09:07:48 PM
Another place to look for 4-36 thread is pre-WWII Lionel train collectors. Lionel used many different lengths on model trains. One place you can find them is Train Tender (Jeff Kane). It looks like the screw in your picture is 5/16" (measure the length of round head machine screws from the bottom of the head to the end of the thread) . The price listed for 4-36 x 5/16" round head slotted machine screws is a package of 25 for $0.12 each screw. His site is here:
http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html (http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html)
Scroll down until you get to screws. He has several sizes but the longest round head is 5/16".
Dennis Hallworth
I finally got around to ordering 25 of the 4-36 x 5/16 from Jeff. They just came a few days ago, I'm just now monkeying with the dial. It needs some cosmetic touch-ups before I put it in.
I have 100 4/36 x 1/4 screws on the way - Anyone who needs a few just email me - you can have them at $0.30 ea plus postage in an envelope, so postage will be very low. I wish they were a bit longer, but for many applications at least in metal cased phones, this will be long enough...
I also have a hundred 1/2 inch long coming for phones with thicker cases - they will be $0.40 ea,
A guess at postage for a few, about $2 as they can be taped to a card in an envelope and stay under the first class letter thickness limits.
Dave
Hi All:
I am trying to compile a list of oddball size screws used on telephones. I would appreciate any suggestions of screws which should be included on this listing for reference which will be included on the forum. E.g.:
Oddball Telephone Screw Sizes:
E1 Spacesaver Bracket Screws 8-36 x ½ Round Head
E1 Spacesaver Dial neck Mounting screws 8-36 x ½ Oval Head
Dial Screws: Slotted Round Head, 4-36 X 1/2 inch, Slotted Round Head, 4-36 X 1/4 inch
Transmitter screws 2-56. WE transmitter screws unknown but slightly larger than 2-56 (4-32?). Tks poplar1!
*** Note May 24/14: I have just added the following screws to my kit as I find I need these quite often, too.:
*10-32 x 1/4" brass slotted round head machine screws for type 38 ringer gong screws [PP10848]
*8-32 x 1" screws for the ringer mount screws [PP 6317]
--also--
*Foot screw for 302 phone: 8/32 x 1/4" slotted.
Also #12-24 x 3/4" round head slotted zinc for magneto mounting.
What should be added to this list?
I need to get one of those Drill & Wire Gauge Charts for Machine Screws machinists use and a screw pitch gauge to identify screw sizes to help me in this challenge to correctly measure the screws!
Dave
Transmitter screws 2-56. WE transmitter screws--unknown but slightly larger than 2-56.
Quote from: poplar1 on July 31, 2013, 07:37:13 PM
Transmitter screws 2-56. WE transmitter screws--unknown but slightly larger than 2-56.
Thanks. I have added them to the list...
Dave
As a result of this thread in the forum, I have just completed putting together a "rescue kit" of oddball sized and commonly needed screws for the museum. For many years now, I have been working off my supply of "rescued screws" - only thing, it is getting harder and harder to find the right screw that I need in it.
As I mentioned above, I have located sources for the more common machine screws, some of which are getting very hard to find. I ordered:
100 - Slotted Round Head, 4-36 X 1/2 inch Dial screws
100 - Slotted Round Head, 4-36 X 1/4 inch Dial screws
100 - 2-56x1/8 inch slotted round head brass face transmitter screws
40 - E1 8-36 x ½ inch Spacesaver Bracket Screws (Could only find Hex socket cap screws, but they will fit and will do the job).
Plus a number of other commonly needed sizes. All are now contained in a labelled plastic parts box, to make finding them much easier than when I was trying to find them in my boxes of mixed recycled screws.
It is amazing how long I managed with my recycled screws (at least 15 years), but it is nice that I now won't have to go searching for that much-needed screw! I am sure there will be times that I will still need to go searching, but not for the most commonly used ones!
Don't overlook other sources of vintage screws (other than telecom equipment). For years I would take in orphan equipment from earlier part of the century and when I scrapped them, every nut and bolt (as well as other useful parts) in good condition were saved. A lot of what was scrapped were old aviation and commercial radios, large old faxes, copiers, etc. Never discard old hardware. That has saved my butt so many times!
But, I am looking forward to having these properly sorted and located in one place!
Incidentally, aware of the mess I could have if I ever accidentally dropped the box, each size of screw is contained in small self sealing labelled zip lock bags in the compartments of the box. Not only will it protect them from rusting, but it will guard against accidental spillage of the box. Another life lesson learned long ago (and sadly, more than once)!
| (http://www.islandregister.com/phones/box1.jpg) (http://www.islandregister.com/phones/box2.jpg) |
Still waiting for more sizes and for my 1/4 inch dial screws. They will hopefully be here early next week and in the box!
I may still have to dip into the 'ol junk box occasionally, but for these sizes, it will be easy to find them. Oddly, I have most other small components in boxes bought at a local dollar store like this one, but never went to the trouble with machine screws.
*** Note May 24/14: I have just added the following screws to my kit as I find I need these quite often, too.:
*10-32 x 1/4" brass slotted round head machine screws for type 38 ringer gong screws [PP10848]*8-32 x 1" screws for the ringer mount screws [PP 6317]
--also--
*Foot screw for 302 phone: 8/32 x 1/4" slotted.Also #12-24 x 3/4" round head slotted zinc for magneto mounting.
Dave
Good summary of odd ball screws and your method of storing them Dave. Also, if you need a size you don't have, remember Dennis Hallwoth's posting about cutting threads in the shanks of properly sized wood screws. This requires that you have the appropriate die. I found Victor Machinery, which if I remember correctly is in New York, stocks odd ball size dies.
Chuck
Dave ,
Here's what I use. Sorry, one is all I have. stub
Quote from: stub on August 10, 2013, 12:54:39 AM
Dave ,
Here's what I use. Sorry, one is all I have. stub
That is ok, Stub. I will find one eventually. A thread gauge is on the way to me, which will help a lot to identify oddball threads!
Dave
Dave -
Would you consider making a "rescue kit" of maybe 6 of each oddball size, and selling them here? I, for one would probably buy such a kit and just tuck it away against a future urgent need.
Bill
Quote from: Bill on August 10, 2013, 09:07:49 AM
Dave -
Would you consider making a "rescue kit" of maybe 6 of each oddball size, and selling them here? I, for one would probably buy such a kit and just tuck it away against a future urgent need.
Bill
Hi Bill:
I would be willing to do this, but I would have to consider the purchase price by me, and the cost of mailing to me, plus then mailing to you...
Most of these can be ordered from Oldphoneworks, i.e. the dial screws and the screws for transmitters.... We should check and see what it would cost if you ordered them directly from them - I know they charge about $9 to ship an order, but if you ordered them all at the same time, there is a good chance you would get them all for the one shipping charge.
See:http://www.oldphoneworks.com/_search.php?page=1&q=dial+screws
My concern is if I tried to ship enough to make a "kit" that is might go above the first class rate, and force it to go express, which would put up the price.
But, yes I will see if I can price something out. The ones I am not certain if I can provide are the ones for the Spacesavers, as I don't have many ordered, but I can give you the eBay URL for them:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121102224544
These are cap heads as opposed to the original round slotted head type, but should work fine, as they are the correct thread...
Now, postage is a funny thing. It might actually be cheaper for me to send them in two envelopes, e.g. half in one envelope and the other half in another to keep them both within first class rates (much cheaper than express, but slower).
Dave
Thanks, Dave -
It was just a thought, and a more of a general question than a real "need'. I'm a big fan of having emrgency kits of almost anything important on hand. A generator for extended power failures, extra gas for the generator, a couple bushels of emergency food in the closet, a kit of spare fuses in my RV, and so forth. Kinda OCD, I know. Thanks for considering it.
Bill
Quote from: Bill on August 12, 2013, 09:52:48 AM
Thanks, Dave -
It was just a thought, and a more of a general question than a real "need'. I'm a big fan of having emrgency kits of almost anything important on hand. A generator for extended power failures, extra gas for the generator, a couple bushels of emergency food in the closet, a kit of spare fuses in my RV, and so forth. Kinda OCD, I know. Thanks for considering it.
Bill
Hi Bill:
Yes, well I share that same OCD with you. I like to have spares of commonly use parts as well.
When I get a change, I can put together a cost for the most common screws. It will be my cost to here, plus cost of shipping. As I mentioned, they way our first class prices mailing prices work, it would be cheapest to split them between a couple of envelopes.
I wouldn't want to get involved with selling a lot, as it would deplete my rescue kit, but a few I could do...
What would be really great, is if we could interest one of the telephone vendors in making up a kit in a small plastic box containing say, ten of the most common sizes and selling them for a reasonable price.
Meanwhile, I am keeping my eyes open for other commonly used sizes, and will be ammending/adding them to the list above, and trying to find sources for them. My 1/2 inch dial screws arrived today, thankfully, so that will fill that spot in the box.
Dave
Any idea what size the screws for 29S (AE), 21B (NE) and 10G (WE) upper housing locks for pay phones are?
Quote from: DavePEI on August 10, 2013, 10:46:15 AM
Dave -
The ones I am not certain if I can provide are the ones for the Spacesavers, as I don't have many ordered, but I can give you the eBay URL for them:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121102224544
These are cap heads as opposed to the original round slotted head type, but should work fine, as they are the correct thread...
Dave,
Here are some other sources for the 8-36 x 1/2 socket head cap screws...
http://tinyurl.com/lfeqnt8
http://tinyurl.com/l8bpklu
http://tinyurl.com/jvnfu8a
I poked around a bit over the weekend; will let you know directly if I find a better supplier. Not at all sure what the postage would be to PEI, or KS, for that matter. More research is required on my part. Certainly a bunch cheaper per screw, though. :D
Best regards!
Terrence
Quote from: Mr. Bones on August 12, 2013, 07:47:26 PM
Here are some other sources for the 8-36 x 1/2 socket head cap screws...
http://tinyurl.com/lfeqnt8
http://tinyurl.com/l8bpklu
http://tinyurl.com/jvnfu8a
I poked around a bit over the weekend; will let you know directly if I find a better supplier. Not at all sure what the postage would be to PEI, or KS, for that matter. More research is required on my part. Certainly a bunch cheaper per screw, though. :D
Best regards!
Terrence
Hi Terrence:
The problem with these ones, is that they aren't threaded all the way up to the head, and would run out of thread before screwing all the way in. You would have to use multiple washers under the head in order to tighten them down on a Spacesaver.
Those I found are threaded all the way up to the head, resulting in them being a better choice. BTW, from the same seller, you can buy them in 100 lots, too:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/181039450697
100 for $10.90 (7 Day Sale price)
Dave
Copper State Nut and Bolt has 8-36 button head cap screws in 3/8, 5/8, and 3/4 inch lengths. Prices not given, but a good outfit - I have dealt with them.
Button heads have a hex recess like a cap screw, but a round head instead of upright. They would look good on any telephone, I think.
They also have socket head 8-36 cap screws, but the picture suggests that they are not threaded all the way to the top.
Copper State is a decent source for a lot of weird fasteners.
Bill
Quote from: DavePEI on August 13, 2013, 05:19:51 AM
Hi Terrence:
The problem with these ones, is that they aren't threaded all the way up to the head,
Those I found are threaded all the way up to the head,
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for the clarification; it saved me from making an unwise purchase that would have ultimately served no practical purpose!
Best regards!
My supply of zinc 12-24 x 3/4 slot headed machine screws have arrived. These are the correct size for screwing a magneto on a wood phone.
There is no charge for one ot two other than postage. I used to be able to send these for under $3.00 - recently Canada Post have changed the rules, and anything going out first class has to be made if paper, so now these would have to be sent small packet at a cost of $8.03
I will also trade small numbers for other useful sizes of telecom bolts. I will pay to ship yours and you to ship mine. I currently have 250 of these hard to find bolts.
I wish that I could get past the postage thing. I have so much I would share if it didn't cost so much to ship. Best way is to turn up at the door of the museum with a vehicle with lots of cargo space!
Dave
For WE dial you will also need flat washers or some sort of spacer to prevent the heads from coming through the oversize holes in the case. This is especially true of the 300 and 5300 models.
Some pics of screws from a 500 set for future reference. I'm not sure what that part is called that's underneath the switch hook plungers, for now I called it a retainer.
Need info on screw sizes for multi-slot pay phones:
Western Electric/Northern Electric:
Coin Vault Door (14- or 30-type lock)
Large screw for coin chute
Upper Housing Lock (10-G, 10-H or 21-B)
Automatic Electric:
Vault door (10-L type lock)
Coin chute
Upper Housing Lock (29-S)
Thanks
Does anyone know any of the following values?
Quote from: poplar1 on May 02, 2015, 11:46:02 AM
Need info on screw sizes for multi-slot pay phones:
Western Electric/Northern Electric:
Coin Vault Door (14- or 30-type lock)
Large screw for coin chute
Upper Housing Lock (10-G, 10-H or 21-B)
Automatic Electric:
Vault door (10-L type lock)
Coin chute
Upper Housing Lock (29-S)
Thanks
My NE233 has a 21B upper lock fitted with four 6-40 NC pan headed, slotted machine screws.
Does anyone know the proper screw size used to attach the base to a SC oil can stick? I need 3 of them..
I'm not coming up with 4-36 screws for dials but 1/4 x3/48 like the finger stops.
Did you ever find the dial mounting screws? I could use around 30 or so.
Dick
Don't know why I never posted this, but some may find it helpful. I managed to find a thread chaser many years ago, size 4-36. Just as important, I also found the handle this die fits in. Since 4-40 is easier to buy, I have found it handy have this to run them through to ensure they fit my dials. I prefer to alter the threads on a replacement screw over running a 4-40 tap into my dial mount ports. Since it is a resize, some of the recut threads will show a loss in fullness. This has never caused me problems-- every screw I have treated this way started fine and tightened perfectly. I found this by chance at a local flea market-- one of my more useful buys.
Quote from: Jester on January 07, 2018, 01:54:16 PM
Don't know why I never posted this, but some may find it helpful. I managed to find a thread chaser many years ago, size 4-36. Just as important, I also found the handle this die fits in. Since 4-40 is easier to buy, I have found it handy have this to run them through to ensure they fit my dials. I prefer to alter the threads on a replacement screw over running a 4-40 tap into my dial mount ports. Since it is a resize, some of the recut threads will show a loss in fullness. This has never caused me problems-- every screw I have treated this way started fine and tightened perfectly. I found this by chance at a local flea market-- one of my more useful buys.
Great hack,
JMO,
Jim S.
Quote from: poplar1 on September 26, 2015, 07:00:25 PM
Does anyone know any of the following values?
Hey David;
going over posts that I missed in the past:
Machine screws for NE and WE 3-slot vault door locks: 3/8" long - 1/4" x 28 screws
Upper housing locks on all 3-slots: 1/4" long - #6-40 screws
All of these machine screws are slotted round-headed screws for authenticity with the exception of newer WE/NE 3-slots where you would sometimes find allen-head screws in the vault door locks.
Automatic Electric 10L vault door lock bars: 1/4" or 3/8" long - #8-40 screws - slotted/flat head (these are also the same size for fitting the coin chute into a Gray Paystation cast iron top housing except the screws would be round/slotted tops on the screws.
Gray Paystation Co. top housing).
Thanks, Ray!
Adding to this screwy thread. A potential buyer was interested in my brassed-out 151 stick. The original transmitter parts need to be reinstalled. I made an effort to get a shot of one of the screws that hold it in place.
The housings on later Western Electric 500s, 2500s, and Princess telephones did not use machine screws. Rather, they had coarse thread screws that went directly into the plastic housing.
At my local hardware store (East Point, GA ACE hardware) I found what I believe to be the correct size, but they are "sheet metal screws" and have more threads per inch:
#6 x 3/4 (for 500s and 2500s)
#4 x 3/4 (for 702 or 2702 Princess)
Does anyone have a source for the coarse thread screws in the above sizes?
A guy who worked at the WE Shreveport Works said that he had suggested switching to the insertless housings much earlier, but they waited until later to introduce them, because they didn't want both types of housings to exist in the field. The housings stamped "AT&T" (late 1983 up) apparently all use these self-tapping screws. Not sure when they were introduced.
you can find 3/48 and 4/36 screws from a Lionel Parts dealer Train Tender www.ttender.com/list/handscrews.htm is one of them.
This is not a source for self tapping metal screws for plastic but it tells you everything you will ever want or need to know about them.
And, yes, the thread pitch is spaced greater than sheet metal screws to reduce the pressure on the plastic when screwed in.
Interesting fact in the article is that the duty cycle for insertless plastic mounts is 10 cycles. I think we have all experienced that running into a stripped screw mount.
https://engineeringproductdesign.com/knowledge-base/self-tapping-screws-for-plastics/
I came across this thread while looking for info on screws WE used. I was looking for info on what screw was used on the wire retention clip of a WE400 headset receiver. The screw also holds the coil in place. #4 anytwisk is too small a #6 doesn't fit into the hole at all.
So anyway I thought that even though this an old thread, maybe someone might still be looking for slotted screws of those screw sizes.
poss 5-40
Thanks!
Quote from: TelePlay on October 13, 2022, 02:32:28 PMThis is not a source for self tapping metal screws for plastic but it tells you everything you will ever want or need to know about them.
And, yes, the thread pitch is spaced greater than sheet metal screws to reduce the pressure on the plastic when screwed in.
https://engineeringproductdesign.com/knowledge-base/self-tapping-screws-for-plastics/
A further discussion of self tapping screws for plastic posts, with comparison images, is on this topic:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=27537.msg265564#msg265564
I would buy some from you!
Mike
Quote from: TelePlay on May 22, 2023, 05:27:54 PMA further discussion of self tapping screws for plastic posts, with comparison images, is on this topic:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=27537.msg265564#msg265564
The guy who finally convinced WE Shreveport Works to get rid of the housings with metal inserts for machine screws calls them "insertless screws." (Perhaps he said "insertless housings" instead???) There was resistance to this change, he said, but at some point, most of the new housings for modular sets (500, 554, 702, 2500, 2554, 2702) were manufactured for use with insertless screws. (I think self-tapping screws are for sheet metal.)
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on May 22, 2023, 11:50:05 PMI would buy some from you!
Mike
Dial screws? Self-tapping screws? Insertless screws???
When replying, it would help if you would hit the quote tab at lower right of the message you are replying to -- which is not necessarily the latest reply. Then remove unneeded information in that post.
Quote from: poplar1 on May 23, 2023, 02:24:13 PM(I think self-tapping screws are for sheet metal.)
That article showed different types of
self threading screws depending on the application to include the plastic being used.
The other type of such screw is the
self drilling and self threading which are typically used in sheet metal applications. Those screws have a chisel point that punctures the metal and then the screw threads tap the metal hole.
The plastic self threading (tapping) screws don't have the chisel point but requires a proper diameter and depth of the molded hole to match the screw.
Too large of a screw would split the post and the depth of the unthreaded, molded post has to be deep enough to hold the small amount of plastic bits that come off when the screw creates the thread in the material.
There are a couple different "tap" styles for these plastic tapping screws but they all have about the same thread pitch and a design at the bottom to help center and start cutting the threads.
As for buying them, I think they are only available in wholesale bulk (thousands at a time).
The sheet metal type are commonly available in hardware and home building stores.
Sorry, I thought dial screws are all you had. I would like some of those dial screws. My glasses broke, and my new ones aren't yet ready, so it is very hard for me to read.
Mike
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on May 23, 2023, 10:32:09 PMI would like some of those dial screws.
Try this, at least one of several sources. They might be what you are looking for.
https://www.oldphoneshop.com/search.php?search_query=Dial+screws
For onesies of oddball screws, I like BoltDepot.com Fair prices, great selection and shipping, while not free, is reasonable. They don't have 4-36, but last time I ordered some from here:
https://blacksmithbolt.com/products/4-36-x-3-4-slotted-round-head-machine-screws-black-oxide