Mottled Brown Western Electric 302

[Doug Rose]

This is a (expletive deleted) to photograph, but it is clearly brown and you can see it is mottled. I have in in direct sunlight so you see every tiny pieces of cloth that is left behind. Dated is also strange 51546 in yellow top left. I just pulled it out of a box this morning from phones I purchased last year from a big hotel haul. What is your opinion???...Doug

[Doug Rose]

a few more...all dates match 5/46

[AE40FAN]

I've never seen one in this color.  Only red, green, blue, rose, and white.   It's gotta be work a lot!  Beautiful condition. 

[unbeldi]

The housing material looks like a phenolic resin. I would heat a paper clip in a flame and touch one of the ribs in a hard to see spot on the inside to see if the material melts.
The "serial" number (for lack of better term) reminds of the early plastic housings of 1941, but it could certainly be the date 5/15/46.

[G-Man]

Weren't the brown Western Electric plastics and handsets intended for sets that were painted?

My understanding is that brown was better to apply paint to. ISTR that Kellogg also produced brown handsets and plastics (Bakelite) for painting their Red Bar sets.

What is additionally interesting about yours is the unpainted finger-wheel.

[Doug Rose]

The housing material looks like a phenolic resin. I would heat a paper clip in a flame and touch one of the ribs in a hard to see spot on the inside to see if the material melts.
The "serial" number (for lack of better term) reminds of the early plastic housings of 1941, but it could certainly be the date 5/15/46.

Karl...the base is dated 5/46 and the coil is dated II46, my guess it is the date. The elements are dated 4/46. I have never seen or heard about a WE color like this. I bought this a few years ago in a huge deal from a hotel in NH that went under. You have bought a few of these phones from me.. This has been sitting in my basement in a box for a few years. I couldn't open all the boes of phone I received in this haul. There are still  unopened boxes to go through! Amazing!

Gman....the fingerwheel looks aluminum (light and shiny), and the paint was probable removed from it. I do not see that it was treated in any other way. The case looks to be a find as the bakelite F1 is clearly black....Doug

[dencins]

The housing material looks like a phenolic resin. I would heat a paper clip in a flame and touch one of the ribs in a hard to see spot on the inside to see if the material melts.
The "serial" number (for lack of better term) reminds of the early plastic housings of 1941, but it could certainly be the date 5/15/46.

It is possible that the material is a phenolic resin such as Bakelite or Catalin however thermoset molds and thermoplastic molds are very different.  A thermoplastic mold requires heaters to melt the plastic while thermoset molds require cooling to remove the heat generated from the chemical reaction during molding.  Also the materials would have different shrinkage rates so the mold steel would need to be different dimension.  Bottom line if this is thermoset it would require a completely different set of molds and molding press to make the parts than the thermoplastic parts.

I suspect it is thermoplastic and would be curious if it melts with a heated paperclip.

Dennis Hallworth   

[unbeldi]

The housing material looks like a phenolic resin. I would heat a paper clip in a flame and touch one of the ribs in a hard to see spot on the inside to see if the material melts.
The "serial" number (for lack of better term) reminds of the early plastic housings of 1941, but it could certainly be the date 5/15/46.

It is possible that the material is a phenolic resin such as Bakelite or Catalin however thermoset molds and thermoplastic molds are very different.  A thermoplastic mold requires heaters to melt the plastic while thermoset molds require cooling to remove the heat generated from the chemical reaction during molding.  Also the materials would have different shrinkage rates so the mold steel would need to be different dimension.  Bottom line if this is thermoset it would require a completely different set of molds and molding press to make the parts than the thermoplastic parts.

I suspect it is thermoplastic and would be curious if it melts with a heated paperclip.

Dennis Hallworth  

I agree totally about the process differences between thermosets and thermoplastics. But WE and BTL did do a lot of research and most certainly would have experimented with materials in many ways that never went to the production line. The special date stamp in this case provides a hint that this was not a standard production run. The only way to gain some insight is a materials test.  Melting attempts, odor, sound (tapping), hardness.   For odor test I would rub a spot on the inside hard, or with a piece of rag with hot water to warm the material and sniff it immediately.  Phenols have a distinct smell.

The finger wheel I believe is stripped from paint, there appear to be residues of paint still in the finger holes, small bands in the center of the depth. Bright light shows nuances that are hard to see with inside incandescent lighting.

PS:
Phenolic resins can react with certain agents, even water, to form a phenol alcohol. The color of this compound is brown. It is most commonly observed when cleaning Bakelite handsets. Rubbing them with a metal cleaner leaves a brown residue in the cleaning rag. I am wondering if the color could be caused from surface chemistry with a cleaning agent.  It is hard to judge the inside surface, does it clean up in the identical manner as outside?  The inside appears to not have been cleaned.

[Mr. Bones]

Wonderful find, Doug!

     I fully realize (web-authoring, etc.) that the color on each and every monitor varies, as well as the user's perception of the above.

     That being said, it does, indeed, clearly display as being predominately brown in general.

     At the periphery of many of the reflections shown, it seems to have a purplish hue, and I couldn't help but wonder, dates be danged, if this wasn't one of the 302s I remember reading about that had purplish / bluish tones visible (only) when viewed under full sunlight?

     Any way I look at it, it seems a very rare and desirable specimen, but might be even more rare than at first thought...

</speculation>

     Just my 2¢ worth, prior to devaluation, of course!

Best regards!

[Jim Stettler]

   

     At the periphery of many of the reflections shown, it seems to have a purplish hue, and I couldn't help but wonder, dates be danged, if this wasn't one of the 302s I remember reading about that had purplish / bluish tones visible (only) when viewed under full sunlight?

     Any way I look at it, it seems a very rare and desirable specimen, but might be even more rare than at first thought...

</speculation>

     Just my 2¢ worth, prior to devaluation, of course!

Best regards!

Mr. Bones
I think the ones you are referring to were the Indigo 302's. The story is that they were made from clear plastic and dyed with Indigo ink. I don't remember why they did it.

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In regards to Bell labs making test molds for different material, My only clear 302 is a small plunger set (housing only), all other small plungers sets I have seen or heard about were metal. I have been told that this would of required a different molding process than the metal sets.

I have also seen soft plastic 302's which i assume would need a different process as well.
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This brown 302 is pretty neat, I am thinking that  Northern electric (or maybe North) made a similar color?

JMO,
Jim

[Doug Rose]

Jim...North made a motled brown which is amazingly close to this color, a tad more brown but still looks black to the naked eye, until you have a black handset or black phone next to it. I have mine displayed under a very soft picture light.

Only one member from the TCI had any info as he said there was a brown 302 recently on eBay and he sent me the pics. I never saw the auction. Pics below.

No one else had any inclination to reply form the TCI list except for the finger wheel.  . Unusual  color 302s have no interest in the general collectors scope. I tried to get some interest in the Blood Red soft plastic 302 a while back. There was none. If this were a 500 set, I feel there would be a whole lot more interest....Doug

[AE40FAN]

Doug,

Why would you want to sell it?

[Doug Rose]

It is staying in my collection. It really looks entirely different sitting next to a black phone. You know its brown sitting next to it. I am an avid 302 collector and this is my prize. I am thrilled with it. The condition is amazing. I am very fortunate to have found this....in my basement!....Doug

[AE40FAN]

Find of the month contender

[Jim Stettler]

As a token "Find of the Month" moderator, I say finding a phone you didn't realize (or remember) you have is very acceptable as a  Find Of The Month entry.

Been there,
Jim