My name is Matthew. I just registered on the forum.
I am 36 and just started collecting phones to use at my home.
I have a Cobra phone from the 60s, a neon phone from the 90s, and an Italian "Grillo" flip phone from the 60s.
I just received from a friend a Western Electric phone that I believe is a 302 model. You can correct me if I'm wrong haha.
I bought a spade connector to modular adapter and connecting the spades to the red and green wire only did not work to give a dial tone. However, connecting the red to red and the green to green and also yellow to the green seem to work and it sounds and works great.
The issue is the ringer does not ring on an incoming call and I wanted to ask how I might approach fixing this? Do I need to open the phone and move a wire?
Below is a picture of my phone
Look forward to the discussion. Take care.
That's the best place to start sir, open it up and lets see a couple of good photos of the insides. You may have to take the black wire of the ringer and move it to "K" on the small terminal block and a condenser wire to "K" also, Red wire of ringer should be on L1. UNLESS you have a 4 wire ringer or a vacuum tube in the circuit, then it's a bit different but, lets see what we have in there.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 15, 2023, 04:23:16 PMThe issue is the ringer does not ring on an incoming call and I wanted to ask how I might approach fixing this? Do I need to open the phone and move a wire?
Does the phone actually have a ringer (sometimes they have been removed)?
If it has a ringer, are the ringer's red and black wires connected, and if so, to which terminals?
You will have to open the phone (and take pictures of the inside base and dial while in there) to answer those questions.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 15, 2023, 04:23:16 PMMy name is Matthew. I just registered on the forum...
...The issue is the ringer does not ring on an incoming call and I wanted to ask how I might approach fixing this? Do I need to open the phone and move a wire ?
First , welcome on the best forum Matthew . see this wiring . the only thing i hope you have is a 5H dial . In the picture it's a 5H dial .
Hello everyone. Thanks for your replies!
There is a guy at my church who is an older retired AT&T guy who has experience with the 302 and I asked him to look at it.
If he doesn't fix it, I'll get it back and post pictures here.
Hopefully, he will, but if not I'll need all the help I can get haha.
I have no idea whether it actually has a ringer. I assume it does.
Quote from: Contempra on February 15, 2023, 09:04:19 PMFirst , welcome on the best forum Matthew . see this wiring . the only thing i hope you have is a 5H dial . In the picture it's a 5H dial .
The phone in the picture is my phone.
We can't tell by seeing the outside. You have to open the phone and show us the INSIDE of it. You loosen the two screws, one at the front, the other at the back. Do NOT loosen the screw on the side.
Mike
Welcome to the forum!
Please let us know how it turns out.
My first experience with a 302 learned me to put in a link so the current from the line also went to the ringer. (Covered by the diagram in an earlier answer in this thread) The second was to look at a spring on the clapper, if that had to high tension, the ringer was not able to work on a weak ringing signal.
Welcome to the forum ;D You have found the best forum on the net. We LOVE pictures and more will be needed to offer any advice.
If you have a red or black ringer wire on GND terminal, it should be moved to L1.
Also, when you turn the phone over, you can read, near the back where the line cord exits, a code such as H1, H3, H5, etc. If it is H1, then you have a 302.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 15, 2023, 11:08:00 PMThe phone in the picture is my phone.
Good ! so , just follow the colored diagram .just follow the colored diagram , it's so simple ;) GOD bless .
Bye the way, welcome to our forum. Great to have younger people coming in!
Mike
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on February 16, 2023, 07:21:33 PMBye the way, welcome to our forum. Great to have younger people coming in!
Mike
I agree, there are not many young collectors here on this forum .
Quote from: Contempra on February 17, 2023, 08:17:57 PMI agree, there are not many young collectors here on this forum.
Glad to be here! I appreciate history and want to keep it alive!
I received the phone back from the AT&T man at my church and he said he could never get the phone to ring. He tried various things, many of which I don't remember now, but I can ask tonight.
Here are some pictures of the inside. It does have bells and it calls out and sounds great! Just doesn't ring.
Any help would be appreciated to figure this out.
Your biggest problem I see right off is that you have a frequency ringer and not the usual straight ringer.
This is why it doesn't ring right now.
Your also missing the screw that holds down the condenser, this will have no affect on its ring ability though.
I do have a extra straight ringer for your 302, just let me know and I can send ya one.
I'm surprised your friend didn't catch that.
Quote from: RDPipes on February 19, 2023, 03:18:52 PMYour biggest problem I see right off is that you have a frequency ringer and not the usual straight ringer.
This is why it doesn't ring right now.
Your also missing the screw that holds down the condenser, this will have no affect on its ring ability though.
I do have a extra straight ringer for your 302, just let me know and I can send ya one.
I'm surprised your friend didn't catch that.
Yes, I would appreciate you sending the ringer my way and anything you think might be of use. How much do you want for it? And what do I need to give you to send it my way? I am in East Tennessee.
How hard would it be to change the ringer out?
Absolutely correct, that's a frequency ringer. This is what a B1A straight line ringer, the correct ringer for that phone as built by WE, looks like.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 19, 2023, 03:33:05 PMYes, I would appreciate you sending the ringer my way and anything you think might be of use. How much do you want for it? And what do I need to give you to send it my way? I am in East Tennessee.
How hard would it be to change the ringer out?
Just PM me your address and I'll get it out to you hopefully by Tuesday.
Quote from: RDPipes on February 19, 2023, 03:49:53 PMJust PM me your address and I'll get it out to you hopefully by Tuesday.
I have sent you a PM.
THANKS, AGAIN!
How hard is it to change out the ringer? I'm a computer guy but have never changed out a phone component.
Bye the way, that is a 5H dial.
Mike
QuoteHow hard is it to change out the ringer?
Normally, if all is as originally built, back out the set screw that is parallel to the base until the thread side is flush with the metal bracket, use a flat blades screwdriver to raise the ringer up and past the set screw, lift out the ringer and disconnect the two ringer wires.
To install, reverse the above procedure. Connect the wires, insert the ringer, press the gong side of the ringer frame down past the set screw bracket and turn the set screw in until tight against the ringer frame.
Quote from: TelePlay on February 19, 2023, 05:55:00 PMNormally, if all is as originally built, back out the set screw that is parallel to the base until the thread side is flush with the metal bracket, use a flat blades screwdriver to raise the ringer up and past the set screw, lift out the ringer and disconnect the two ringer wires.
To install, reverse the above procedure. Connect the wires, insert the ringer, press the gong side of the ringer frame down past the set screw bracket and turn the set screw in until tight against the ringer frame.
Thank you. This helps! Is there a video somewhere that shows this procedure?
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 19, 2023, 11:41:59 PM...Is there a video somewhere that shows this procedure?
Teleplay describes the 'how to' well. Let us know how you get on.
For more information on your phone you can also use the 'Search' button at the top of this page.
Lots of great info on CRPF!
:)
That is a strange looking ringer. Definitely a frequency ringer as already stated but it does not look like any WE ringer I have seen before. Any idea who made it?
Quote from: HarrySmith on February 20, 2023, 07:50:03 AMThat is a strange looking ringer. Definitely a frequency ringer as already stated but it does not look like any WE ringer I have seen before.
I've seen that ringer before but can't remember who made it.
IIRC, the ringer was designed and made to fit the ringer mount of a 302 so this phone may have an F1W handset (not stated or shown by the OP).
Quote from: TelePlay on February 20, 2023, 08:03:49 AMI've seen that ringer before but can't remember who made it.
Stromberg-Carlson. Kellogg also made a frequency selective ringer for W.E. sets
Quote from: TelePlay on February 20, 2023, 08:03:49 AMIIRC, the ringer was designed and made to fit the ringer mount of a 302 so this phone may have an F1W handset (not stated or shown by the OP).
This is a W.E. 251. "AB1" should be stamped on the housing, rather than "H1."
Nope, this frequency ringer won't fit in a 302 base. The ringer mount is different: Notice that the lip that is parallel to the base is shorter. However, a standard B1A ringer will fit in both the 251 and the 302.
Are you saying my phone is a Western Electric 251?
Not a 302?
Is the inside of the housing marked AB1 or H1 or something else? AB1 is a 251. That ringer will not fit in a 302 ringer mount, but a B1A ringer that you need will fit in either a 251 or a 302.
Do I also need to change the handset cable?
The base cable seems fine.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 20, 2023, 05:06:30 PMDo I also need to change the handset cable?
The base cable seems fine.
Yeah, I think I'd change that, lol!
I have one like that. Looks like it was made by Stromberg-Carlson.
Mike
Isn't the 251 the modern replacement for deskstands? Weren't they made to be converted to a 302 easily?
Mike
Quote from: RDPipes on February 20, 2023, 05:20:34 PMYeah, I think I'd change that, lol!
Would this work with my phone's handset?
https://oldphoneworks.com/products/original-cloth-handset-cord-brown-3-con-western-electric (https://oldphoneworks.com/products/original-cloth-handset-cord-brown-3-con-western-electric)
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 20, 2023, 05:38:08 PMWould this work with my phone's handset?
https://oldphoneworks.com/products/original-cloth-handset-cord-brown-3-con-western-electric (https://oldphoneworks.com/products/original-cloth-handset-cord-brown-3-con-western-electric)
That's exactly what you need but, it being Original cordage it's a bit pricey.
You can get high quality reproduction cordage for close to half that price.
Again, it's completely up to you sir. I use original on most my phones when I can get them cheap
enough but, I am in no way like others nor can afford a whole lot either.
Quote from: RDPipes on February 20, 2023, 06:05:34 PMThat's exactly what you need but, it being Original cordage it's a bit pricey.
You can get high quality reproduction cordage for close to half that price.
Again, it's completely up to you sir. I use original on most my phones when I can get them cheap
enough but, I am in no way like others nor can afford a whole lot either.
Thank you. I probably will hold off until I get the ringer changed and the phone working okay.
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on February 20, 2023, 05:24:43 PMIsn't the 251 the modern replacement for deskstands? Weren't they made to be converted to a 302 easily?
Mike
You are thinking of the 250 which has an AA1 telephone set mounting. It has no ringer, induction coil, or condenser. It has a 4-conductor mounting cord to connect to a subset.
Still waiting for confirmation that Matthew's phone has the AB1 marking.
Quote from: poplar1 on February 20, 2023, 07:37:12 PMStill waiting for confirmation that Matthew's phone has the AB1 marking.
. . . and an F1 or F1W handset.
Quote from: TelePlay on February 20, 2023, 07:40:31 PM. . . and an F1 or F1W handset.
I can confirm a F1W handset. Haven't got to open the phone base yet today.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 20, 2023, 08:02:52 PMI can confirm a F1W handset. Haven't got to open the phone base yet today.
The F1W mark will be on the underside of the handset where its marked Western Electric.
The AB1 mark will be inside the housing next to the line cord mouse hole.
Find background info on the AB1 and AA1, with info sources for additional research in the chart here:
http://www.paul-f.com/we300typ.htm#Single (http://www.paul-f.com/we300typ.htm#Single)
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 20, 2023, 08:02:52 PMI can confirm a F1W handset. Haven't got to open the phone base yet today.
You don't have to open the base to see the telset mounting code (AB1? Hx?) Just turn the phone over and you can see it where the line cord exits.
Or add a photo or two of the base including the area mentioned above by poplar1.
Good photos (not too close up) often give us much of the info we need to move forward.
Quote from: poplar1 on February 21, 2023, 08:58:42 AMYou don't have to open the base to see the telset mounting code (AB1? Hx?) Just turn the phone over and you can see it where the line cord exits.
I did this and didn't see any markings near where you said. However, I think last time I had the phone open it had markings. I'll look tomorrow.
300-type sets: Mounting code locations...
Quote from: TelePlay on February 19, 2023, 05:55:00 PMNormally, if all is as originally built, back out the set screw that is parallel to the base until the thread side is flush with the metal bracket, use a flat blades screwdriver to raise the ringer up and past the set screw, lift out the ringer and disconnect the two ringer wires.
To install, reverse the above procedure. Connect the wires, insert the ringer, press the gong side of the ringer frame down past the set screw bracket and turn the set screw in until tight against the ringer frame.
Hi, thank you for your help so far. Can you highlight in the picture also the set screw for me? I haven't received the ringer yet, but am trying to get ready. I may attempt to remove the frequency ringer myself. Though I am not very mechanically inclined haha.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 21, 2023, 10:54:13 PM...I think last time I had the phone open it had markings. I'll look tomorrow.
As per post above take photos and add them to this thread.
Photos help take out guesswork, helps members to help you, and helps to keep down some of the to and fro if we can see the actual item under discussion in full.
What, if anything, is stamped on the bottom of the base?
My AB1 came with the following base markings, previously removed frequency ringer, no ringer mount and an F1W handset.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 22, 2023, 07:43:37 AMCan you highlight in the picture also the set screw for me?
From reply 20 above:
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=340134;image)
Quote from: TelePlay on February 22, 2023, 07:52:50 AMFrom reply 20 above...
Thank you. I thought originally the arrow was an indication of sliding the ringer to remove back when the screw is loosened. Sorry. Long day.
Many thanks to RDPIPES who is sending me a standard ringer, condenser screw, and some dial cards.
Can someone tell me where I should put the screw maybe with a picture and an arrow?
Is the condenser underneath the flat silver metal bar that is sticking up in my phone picture? Should that bar be screwed down?
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 22, 2023, 06:08:21 PMMany thanks to RDPIPES who is sending me a standard ringer, condenser screw, and some dial cards.
Can someone tell me where I should put the screw maybe with a picture and an arrow?
Is the condenser underneath the flat silver metal bar that is sticking up in my phone picture? Should that bar be screwed down?
Matthew, Yes the flat bar clamp is held down by a screw, the screw enters from the underside of the base and into the clamp. These come up missing a lot and I think its from people who think the screw holds the base on and after unscrewing it they lose it, that or there's some Gremlin that's taking them.
Quote from: RDPipes on February 22, 2023, 07:29:25 PMMatthew, Yes the flat bar clamp is held down by a screw, the screw enters from the underside of the base and into the clamp. These come up missing a lot and I think its from people who think the screw holds the base on and after unscrewing it they lose it, that or there's some Gremlin that's taking them.
So the flat bar clamp is suppose to touch/make contact with the condenser?
Also, another question, the former AT&T man at my church told me there is a green wire that has to be disconnected along with the red and black wire to remove the ringer. Is this right? I thought it was just a red and black that needs to be disconnected according to the Western Electric wiring diagram provided.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 22, 2023, 09:45:32 PMSo the flat bar clamp is suppose to touch/make contact with the condenser?
Also, another question, the former AT&T man at my church told me there is a green wire that has to be disconnected along with the red and black wire to remove the ringer. Is this right? I thought it was just a red and black that needs to be disconnected according to the Western Electric wiring diagram provided.
Yes, the "flat bar clamp) comes into contact with the condenser and hold it firmly in place. That's why the flat bar is bent inward toward the base, to contact the condenser. The wires coming out of the condenser are shielded.
A WE B1A ringer has red and black wires. I don't know what that frequency ringer has. Take the ringer out and then make note as to how many wires are attached to the ringer, their colors and which color is attached to what terminals.
Once you get your B1A, this is how it is wired into the phone, on a 302. If not the same, post pictures and let someone take it from there.
Quote from: TelePlay on February 22, 2023, 10:04:55 PMYes, the "flat bar clamp) comes into contact with the condenser and hold it firmly in place. That's why the flat bar is bent inward toward the base, to contact the condenser. The wires coming out of the condenser are shielded.
A WE B1A ringer has red and black wires. I don't know what that frequency ringer has. Take the ringer out and then make note as to how many wires are attached to the ringer, their colors and which color is attached to what terminals.
Once you get your B1A, this is how it is wired into the phone, on a 302. If not the same, post pictures and let someone take it from there.
Should arrive tomorrow. So I may try tomorrow to replace the ringer.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 23, 2023, 09:57:18 PMShould arrive tomorrow. So I may try tomorrow to replace the ringer.
Got the ringer in but the red wire broke to the ringer so we are going to try to solder in back.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 24, 2023, 03:15:50 PMGot the ringer in but the red wire broke to the ringer so we are going to try to solder in back.
Success! We didn't have to solder just split the two ends of the red wire where they disconnected and used electrical tape to wrap and connected and it rings!
Thank you everyone!
My Cell2Jack Bluetooth device that I use does not send enough power for it to ring at the top bias ring level, but it will ring the lowest level. I am using a line splitter on that device to connect two landlines and that may be splitting the power some, hence the less power going to the WE phone.
Will have to experiment more later.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 24, 2023, 05:51:01 PMWe didn't have to solder just split the two ends of the red wire where they disconnected and used electrical tape to wrap and connected and it rings!
Not the best fix. A short piece of shrink wrap tubing placed on the wire before soldering to cover the soldered joint would be preferable.
If it stops ringing, check that joint first.
Quote from: TelePlay on February 24, 2023, 06:07:34 PMNot the best fix. A short piece of shrink wrap tubing placed on the wire before soldering to cover the soldered joint would be preferable.
If it stops ringing, check that joint first.
Okay. Thanks.
I wanted to add some pictures of the inside as requested and let you all tell me what you make of the markings. I think this is indeed an AB1. Looks like it is also marked 8 10 51 2.
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 24, 2023, 11:35:49 PMI wanted to add some pictures of the inside as requested and let you all tell me what you make of the markings. I think this is indeed an AB1. Looks like it is also marked 8 10 51 2.
It is an AB1 and the other markings are the date of manufacture, 8/10/51, unsure what the 2 means
Quote from: phoneyouth on February 24, 2023, 11:35:49 PMI wanted to add some pictures of the inside as requested and let you all tell me what you make of the markings. I think this is indeed an AB1. Looks like it is also marked 8 10 51 2.
An AB1 mounting code indicates it was originally manufactured as a WECo 251 instrument. They were supplied without a ringer as it was intended for the Bell or Independent company to supply their own; typically a harmonic (frequency) ringer for use on a party-line for selective ringing. Initially harmonic ringers were manufactured by Western Electric. As the remaining Bell exchanges phased out frequency ringing and cutover to cold-cathode tube ringing, the remaining Bell harmonic ringing exchanges sourced ringers manufactured by Kellogg and Stromberg-Carlson. In later years for the few hanger-ons, Bell System company supply catalogs list ITT frequency ringers for use in WECo 500-type sets.Below is a jpeg showing Kellogg ringers intended for WECo and S-C sets.
Welcome, Matthew. Gee, 36 is "young" around here? I'm in my twenties and have been into old telephones off and on since I was a kid... (Just getting back into it in recent weeks after another "off" period.)
I just wanted to add this to the discussion: hold on to the old ringer and other parts you replace. Bog-standard Bell System-issued 302 sets are pretty common, and it's only a matter of time before you run across one. More specialized models for long-gone purposes and circuit variations, such as party-line models or the sold-to-independents 251 model you have, may be less- or unusable as-is on the standard circuits that remain today, but they are interesting relics in their own way and often less common. The frequency ringer may not have been made or originally supplied with the phone by W.E., but it's still "original" to the phone inasmuch as it was installed by the issuing tel. co. long ago as part of when the phone was in actual service. Even the old cords were date-coded by W.E. and are also part of its history. (With me, if a phone still works well enough despite cord damage, I'd tend to leave them and at most patch them up with electrical tape or something; though on the other hand, for use as a "daily driver", the old cloth-covered cords are more susceptible to further wear overall and might be better preserved by swapping in a replacement...)
Zachary.
Quote from: loblolly986 on February 25, 2023, 05:23:52 PM...More specialized models for long-gone purposes and circuit variations, such as party-line models or the sold-to-independents 251 model you have, may be less- or unusable as-is on the standard circuits that remain today, but they are interesting relics in their own way...
Zachary, thank you for the information. It is my plan to use this phone at home in my office on my desk. To pick up when people call my smartphone.