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Panasonic programming phone cord unspecified contentions

Started by bellsystem, August 15, 2017, 04:18:27 PM

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bellsystem

I have several hooked up at any given time.

I have an AT&T 100 from the 1980s and a Panasonic PT (Panasonic programming) phone for my PBX, both of which I consider to be modern phones, but I don't use either of them. The PT phone cuts in and out when I used and has tones of static and the AT&T 100's touchtone pad doesn't work half the time.

Newer phones don't cut it for me - the receivers are not as comfortable as a G-series handset, the buttons don't even work half as well as the buttons on the 2500, and they don't last very long.

Ironically, one of the reasons older phones are better is because technically, you never need to buy another one, but for me, older phones are so good that I can't stop buying them!

Right now, I have mostly 500s - those are my favorite. I don't have pictures, but you can check out my collection here (the "PBX Showcase Series", don't worry the link won't change): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNj2i7d2zYCNRoyfUf9h2Q23y9Xr28C3h

Jim Stettler

Quote from: bellsystem on August 15, 2017, 04:18:27 PM
I have several hooked up at any given time.

The PT phone cuts in and out when I used and has tones of static .

Sounds like a cord issue to me. Test the handset cord by wiggling the ends while listening. If the noise changes it is probably the cord.
JMO,
Jim S.
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

bellsystem

#2
It is a cord issue. Sometimes it will shut off and I have to wiggle it to get it right. The odd thing is, I can't use a replacement cord. I've plugged numerous cords in, but apparently it's "proprietary" and you can't swap in a standard RJ11 cable and expect it to work. I have to have the cord a certain way and have to adjust it from time to time. I sometimes use it as a speaker, i.e. to listen to music over the phone on C*NET, but that's about it. It's not a vintage phone anyways, so I'm not really concerned about it not working. Just goes to show the quality of "modern" phones!

Victor Laszlo

The line cord on a Panasonic phone is not proprietary.  The phone operates on the second, "orange," pair in the cord.  Read the installation practice.

Are you certain that each replacement cord that you have tried has 4 conductors, and is not just a single-pair cord?

bellsystem

#4
Yes, I've tried several different cables. Most of mine have 4 wires anyways. It only operates with the cable that shipped in the box with it. Plugged in any other cable does absolutely nothing.

I looked in the installation manual (practice - ?) as well as the user manual. I don't see anything regarding the type of cord the PT handset uses. Then again, I'm talking about the manual for my PBXs, not the phone.

Victor Laszlo

#5
QuoteThe odd thing is, I can't use a replacement cord. I've plugged numerous cords in, but apparently it's "proprietary" and you can't swap in a standard RJ11 cable and expect it to work.

There is some confusion here, caused by your ambiguous statements. You did not directly state that the trouble is caused by the handset cord. You DID however, imply that the trouble is in the line cord, since you employed the (incorrect) term "RJ11 cable."  I inferred that you were talking about the line cord, since the end of a single line telephone line cord plugs into an RJ11 jack.  That is why I offered the advice that I did.

There are no "RJ cables" in the telephone industry.  There are no RJ cables, nor, for that matter, are there RJ-anythings, on an electronic Panasonic multi-line telephone instrument. 

4-conductor modular handset cords are 99.999% interchangeable within the industry and across manufacturers' brands.  Modular handset cords are equipped with "4p4c" plugs.  4p4c plugs are smaller than 6p4c plugs, the ones generally found on line cords.  There is no way a line cord can fit into a handset jack.

You need to learn these industry terms, and to use them with consistency:

cord = a flexible connection that connects products to a connection block, another piece of apparatus, or to another part of the same instrument.  Cords range in conductor count from 1 conductor (sometimes we say a half-pair) to 150 pair, generally.

wire = a non-flexible, solid-conductor connection ranging from one conductor, up to, but not including, 6 pairs. Can be unsheathed or sheathed.

cable = a non-flexible, solid conductor connection ranging from 6 pairs on up to thousands of pairs. Can be sheathed or unsheathed.  Interconnects terminals, central offices, PBX and key systems, and equipment therein.

RJ = Registered Jack. A government-designed system to identify the circuitry and contact arrangement of jacks used to connect COAM equipment to the public network.

COAM = Customer [sic] Owned And Maintained.  The correct industry word for customer is "subscriber." Trust the government to get it wrong.

So, back to your static issue. There is no Panasonic telephone, to my knowledge, that uses a proprietary handset cord.  If I am wrong, please let a Panasonic guru correct me.



bellsystem

I never said it WAS proprietary. I said it seemed like it because I couldn't get any of my other cables to work.

You are correct in inferring it is a problem with the line/mounting cable (although I don't really consider phones that use modular cords to use "mounting" cables). But yes, the cable that runs from the back of the phone to the PBX.

Right now, it seems like you think I'm asking everyone how to fix this and you're irritated at how I have responded thus far. I never asked for help with this project. A moderator moved this post to the "Repair" section for whatever reason, and then people thought I was having some sort of problem. It's a genuine problem nonetheless, but if this topic is just irritating you, you don't have to help. I don't want people to start getting upset, especially for something I didn't ask for to begin with.

Victor Laszlo

#7
OMG

I suggested "You need to learn these industry terms, and to use them with consistency."

You insist upon using the term cable instead of cord.  Do you do this to annoy? Did you not read my carefully-crafted response #288 in which I defined each of the terms?  Did I waste my time?

Here's what you said in post # 148:    "I don't see anything regarding the type of cord the PT handset uses"  (emphasis added)

If it's not the handset, then stop saying "handset."

If it's the line cord, then use a meter, determine the (possible...but not probable) non-standard wiring scheme, and duplicate the cord or connections using a standard cord and a re-wired jack.  It's not rocket science.

Figure out what pair the phone uses. Repair or replace the jack on the phone. Figure out the wiring scheme. Two wires should not pose an insurmountable problem. 

You have confused the intent and purpose of this technical forum with a blog. It is not a blog. The owner and moderators will assist you in gaining an understanding of the difference. We are not here just to listen. We are here to assist.  And if you don't want help on a particular issue, and are determined to insult the person attempting to help, against all odds, perhaps there are some choices:

(1) Do not post about the issue.

or

(2) Post about the issue, but include a caveat that states "Please do not read, comment upon, or attempt to assist in this problem."


Victor Laszlo

"...for whatever reason, and then people thought I was having some sort of problem..."

The title of this thread is "Panasonic 616 programming phone cord problem"

Offered without further comment.


bellsystem

Victor, I didn't create this thread. A moderator took one of my posts and moved it here, then edited my question so it would seem like I was asking for help. I do have a problem - but that was not what I mean to convey in my original post in the forum subcategory it was originally in. I didn't post this in the "Repair" category - it was moved there for whatever reason. If you look at my original post, you'll find very little of it has anything to do with technical problems.

What source are you using for the definitions of cable and cord? I'd really like to see that and read through it. Apart from electrical cables that run from the circuit breaker to an outlet, I can't think of many (mediums that transmit electricity or information electrically) that use (mediums) that are not flexible. If it matters that much, sure I'll use those terms. But I'd be interested in seeing that reference.

By handset, I mean the phone itself. That probably wasn't very good wording. I should remember I'm dealing with technical people who will pick apart every word I say. If I bring up computers in the future, I'll be sure to call them "IBM-PC Compatible computers" instead of just "PCs", so it's clear I'm not talking about Macs.

The Panasonic phone is very modern. It's not worth anything to me (apart from programming) so I wouldn't go to the trouble of replacing the jack of a phone that isn't valuable or usable. The buttons on it for one also suck and half the time don't even register - as with many modern TouchTone phones.

Thank you for the detailed descriptions. I'm still hesitant to believe that is the whole picture, especially with RJ. Some people call Ethernet Cables RJ45 cables even though RJ45 is a standard and doesn't actually specifically relate to Ethernet. Some call it Cat5, even though I have used Cat6 cables before. Even when I use "RJ11 jack", I still get scolded. I try to stay away from using specific terms like "RJ" and more general terms like "phone jack" or "phone cable cord" in order to increase the ambiguity to a level where what I said is actually acceptable to others.

Thank you for any help you are willing to provide. What I really meant is that if I sounds like I'm complaining about a stupid problem, it's because I mentioned that in passing.

Victor Laszlo

#10
"What source are you using for the definitions of cable and cord? "

The Bell System, for one. The NEC, for another.  The electrical industry, for a third.  Cords are made of multi-strand conductors, rendering them flexible, and used in service that requires that they be moved around. Phone cord, extension cord, switchboard cord, etc. Wire and cable are made up of solid, single conductors that are not designed or intended to be moved about in service.  Romex, telephone wire and cable, electrical supply conductors in general, etc. 

There is a product called stranded wire. It is commonly used in automotive, aeronautic and marine applications, and in appliances and machinery where a small amount of vibration is expected, and where a solid conductor might fail over time. We are not discussing that here. We are discussing telephony, which has its own needs and products, which are named consistently to avoid confusion.

"By handset, I mean the phone itself." 

Ha ha. I knew that.  You, and thousands of non-phone people, make that mistake. It drives telephone professionals crazy. It stems from the fact that portable phones, that reside in chargers in a home, are called that by their makers. It doesn't make it right, and as you can see, it makes it difficult to carry on a technical telephone conversation.  A person so interested in the history and legacy of the Bell System should know better.

"I'm still hesitant to believe that is the whole picture, especially with RJ."

Hesitate all you want; then Google it.

"Some people call Ethernet Cables RJ45 cables even though RJ45 is a standard and doesn't actually specifically relate to Ethernet."

Some people are wrong. No reason for anyone here to perpetuate the inaccuracies of the masses. This a forum devoted to facts, not trends.

"Some call it Cat5, even though I have used Cat6..."

Cat5 is called Cat5. Cat6 is called Cat6. I see no easier way to explain it except through those tautologies.

"Even when I use "RJ11 jack", I still get scolded."

No, when you use "RJ11 cable" you get scolded.  "RJ11 jack" is a correct usage.  It is not correct when used to describe what a Panasonic telephone plugs into, though. That is a 6p4c jack, as I described many words ago.

"...in order to increase the ambiguity to a level where what I said is actually acceptable to others."

No, we do not expect ambiguity. This whole exercise has been an attempt to get you to understand the disadvantage of ambiguity and inaccuracy. We expect accuracy, consistency and logic.

I will end here by saying that if you wish to argue, you have picked the wrong adversary.  If you wish to learn, you have picked the right teacher. You decide how to proceed.  Had you not, over the past few weeks, been so argumentative and reluctant to listen and learn, your telephonic education might have accelerated to a point where you could converse intelligently with me. But you have argued and obfuscated regularly. To no one's advantage.

TelePlay

#11
Quote from: bellsystem on August 16, 2017, 02:45:04 PM
Victor, I didn't create this thread. A moderator took one of my posts and moved it here, then edited my question so it would seem like I was asking for help. I do have a problem - but that was not what I mean to convey in my original post in the forum subcategory it was originally in. I didn't post this in the "Repair" category - it was moved there for whatever reason. If you look at my original post, you'll find very little of it has anything to do with technical problems.

For the record:

1) The original post of this topic was posted in "How many of you actually use your antique phones?" as reply #294

2) Replies 295, 296 and 297 addressed the cord (didn't specify which) connection. At this point, #294 had morphed into a repair topic so it was split off and moved to "Telephone Troubleshooting and Repair" with a title referencing a Panasonic phone cord issue.

3) Reply #6 of the Troubleshoot Topic became personal, contentious and argumentative so it was moved to this current location.

4) After it was moved to this board, "616" was take out of the title after being advised bellsystem had other versions of that device, but not a 616

5) It will remain in this board since this topic has long crossed the boundaries that define the spirit of the CRPF: a civil and  family friendly hobby forum offering help to those members who collect, fix, document and restore old telephones and those members in the business of buying and selling old phones and old phone parts.