Just came across this on eBay. I don't think I am outing anything with a starting bid of $500.00. The seller states it is brand new in the original box. I cannot see vents in his picture but he states they are there. The base looks correct, the condensor bracket is correct but what does not look correct is the handset rest and the handset. The rest does not look like the wider rest that is on the early 302 with small plungers and it should have an E1 not an F handset. What do you think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321298795085
Ungrooved F1 handset could be 1936 or 1937.
Housing has the cork inside below the dial like the small buttons
Seller says it is a 5H dial--has W contact by the governor and 149B number plate
Box is for a non-dial 302A set
This phone is not too far from me, so I'm thinking about seeing the phone in person. I've contacted the seller and he's fine with my visit. This phone seems a little odd - early 37 should have the small plungers? Could this phone be a reconditioned phone? Newer body on the older base? I have a III 37 with the vents and small plungers, 5h dial, which is newer than this one.
An up close and personal inspection may be enlightening. Check the date on the dial, see if the vented fingerhold cover is an exact match to the case. Look closely at all the screws and attaching points to see if anything has signs of being removed. The seller states the handset caps are tight, maybe bring a strapwrench to open it and check the dates inside? I was thinking maybe someone put the vented fingerhold on a newer body. I have never seen a 1937 302 without the small plungers and wider opening.
If my eyes are still good, I see screws that are a little edges on the network :-\
Yes, I agree, a few of the screws have some burring on them, apparently they have been loosend and tightened more than once. Also in looking at the wires the brown cloth wires with the red and white stripes look newer than any others. The line cord has rubber insulation. A few details that are not right on a "NEW" untouched phone. All aside from the fact the box is not correct as already pointed out.
I see small plungers,no groove on side of handset,either early #5 or #4 dial with Celluloid over metal # plate.Cannot see if there vents where you pick it up.Did they have the cloth coiled cord yet?
Nice but $500.00?
If you get to see it in person, look for model info and dates on the cord strain reliefs.
When I saw this, it was pretty clear that this is not an original. At least they could have connected all the wires.
You might want to ask the seller why one of the wires to the dial is dangling loose, but I wouldn't waste the time to go to see it.
I missed the loose wire, but I did notice that there isn't a wire going to the terminal by the governor.
The white handset conductor is on L2Y instead of W next to the governor.
Green mounting cord conductor is on GN instead of L1. (Rookie mistake.)
S-hook for mounting cord is usually attached first, then the S-hook for handset cord last. In other words, I don't see how the S-hook for the mounting cord "fell off" the hitching post since the handset cord is still attached.
As far as I know, the 302 cords had rubber conductors from the start: H3C handset cord and D2D or D3AL mounting cord. So the mounting cord is probably legit.
Dial gasket should be natural tan color--is it black?
Ungrooved handset does look brand new. Le combiné non cannelé a l'air flambant neuf.
Question.
There are at least 4 markings that I can see on the phone, a "2" on the base, a "N" on the ringer clapper mount, a "g" or "6" on the hookswitch and a big check mark on the capacitor cover. Were these or could these have been put on during the original manufacturing process or are these indications of at least 1 and maybe up to 4 repairs or refurbs?
Similar marks can be found on new in box WE phones, even from the 1980s. Later sets have grease pencil marks instead of graphite. So at least sometimes these marks are from the time of manufacture, possibly made by inspectors.
Solid black handset cord conductor is on L2Y instead of BK of dial.
Interesting thread this. Is it possible that the dial was added later?
The box is for a dialless 302, right? Perhaps the seller has added a dial to make it commercially more interesting. That would explain the loose wire.
Also, don't the shells usually have markings on the inside? I don't see anything on this one, and it almost looks like it has been repainted on the inside?
H1 is stamped in the metal on the outside, above the mouse hole. Check the photo of the back.
The ears look short to me and the plungers have rounded edges.
Ok, I see it now.
Quote from: Matilo Telephones on January 16, 2014, 09:46:21 AM
Interesting thread this. Is it possible that the dial was added later?
The box is for a dialless 302, right? Perhaps the seller has added a dial to make it commercially more interesting. That would explain the loose wire.
It is also possible to find 202s and 302s with all matching dates except for the dials. Sometimes you find a converted dial on a 302 that was otherwise new. (For example, a 2A converted to a 4H by changing the contacts and changing the external finger stop to an internally mounted one.)
This mismatch sometimes occurred because of different local practices in areas that were to be converted soon from manual to dial. Whether dials or apparatus blanks were installed initially also might depend on how far in the future the central office conversion to dial was scheduled. (See AT&T Specifications 4566, Machine Switching Stations, February, 1926.)
I've pretty much decided not to see the phone in person, but I did have a long conversation with the Seller by phone. He has been trying to research the phone, and even found the Paul-f website. He had incorrectly assumed that 302A, which is referenced as a manual phone, to mean it had the rural dial plate. He also thought the 3 in 302-A-3 was a rev. number. He now understands that the body is not original to the phone, nor is the handset cord or dial. (or, that's not the original box) He is going to pull the dial and look for the 5H stamp and a date to see if that might be an early 1937 dial. And also look for labels on the cords. I think he realizes he probably has a $50 phone (which is what he paid for it at an antique show) so unless someone is dumb enough to pay the $500 he will just keep the phone. I offered him a small profit over the $50, but he said no. :( He also said the phone had 50 watchers. I suggested that he change his listing to a BIN with the Make an Offer option.
If it does have small plungers, it should bring more than $50. 1937 302s with E1 handsets often bring well over $100. if anything, the ungrooved F1A handsets are much more difficult to find than 1937 E1Es, which were still being furnished with 202s in 1937.
For some reason I thought the seller said the dial was a 5H dated 1937, but I can't find that info now in the description or in any emails.
Seller pulled the dial and it's marked 5H, II 37. The gasket under the dial is rubber. The remaining mystery is the newer body, and that cloth coiled handset cord.
Wall cord restrain is II 37. Coiled cord is '41. The only remaining item is the body - do you suppose the newer body is in fact original to the phone?
It seems the seller did not put this Phone together. Do you know where he got it from?
I don't think the Seller has modified the phone in any way - he is just a flipper. He recently purchased the phone at an antique market. The wires were already loose and he didn't want to modify the phone in any way. I would think the phone was shipped to a Telephone Company as a dial-less phone, where the dial was added as needed. Luckily the correct dial was added, but that doesn't explain the newer body. Maybe the phone was returned by a customer to the phone company, where the older "out of date" body was replaced with a newer body? Refurb?
I'm a little confused. Sure looks like an early 1937 H1 housing , not sure why it's thought to be a replacement case .
Notice how early H1 differs from later 1937 metal housings. Phone shown on e-bay IS earlier style.
I admit I'm no expert on these phones, but I've only seen these early 37 phones with the small plungers. This one has the larger plungers. An interesting mix of parts.
Yes, the plungers and the opening between the ears is not as wide to accomodate the E handset.
I agree it is difficult to tell from the e-bay photos the size of the plungers. If they are large , but if the casting is earlier type then possibly this could have been a transition or phased in casting. ( although I doubt it ) One thing I learned after half a life time working for " Ma Bell " is that the saying we had " WE ALWAYS DO IT THE SAME WAY ONCE " just might be accurate in this instance . Personally , just my opinion , just the fact that it has a black ungrooved F1 handset merits a high price. They don't appear on e-bay often. I found one that I needed for a restoral after an almost six year search !
I had the seller take some measurements of the cradle and plungers, and the plungers are the smaller ones, and the cradle is wider than the normal 302. Looks like this is a completely original and authentic II 1937 with the exception of the handset cord. What are the chances of finding the correct handset cord? Seller is posting better pictures. So what would the correct value of this phone be? I still think the $500 is high.
How much do ungrooved handsets usually fetch? I've been looking for one myself. I found one once on a D1.
-K
The ungrooved SOLID F1handsets in BLACK are very scarce. So scarce that replicas have been made !! Less scarce are ungrooved F1s in brown that were made to be painted. These should not be confused with the F1* lightweight handsets used on later D1 and H1 bases. From what I have seen over the years the black ones are even rarer than the few that were made in ivory or other colors.
Quote from: K1WI on January 17, 2014, 08:15:31 PM
Notice how early H1 differs from later 1937 metal housings. Phone shown on e-bay IS earlier style.
Is the round extrusion beneath the dial cavity present in the earlier or later styles? I have a late (Nov) H1 case which has the little round extrusion, so I am confused to how that is considered early. Unless they were still making early cases in Nov.
Quote from: Kenton K on January 18, 2014, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: K1WI on January 17, 2014, 08:15:31 PM
Notice how early H1 differs from later 1937 metal housings. Phone shown on e-bay IS earlier style.
Is the round extrusion beneath the dial cavity present in the earlier or later styles? I have a late (Nov) H1 case which has the little round extrusion, so I am confused to how that is considered early. Unless they were still making early cases in Nov.
Kenton, is your 11/37 housing with small plungers? There's supposed to be a cork inserted in the round part. There were some new-style housings (large plungers and higher ears) in late 1937 but I don't recall the month.
David....I thought in the last quarter of 37 WE stopped with the short ears and small plungers, but still had H1 embossed over the mouse hole. The grated hookswitch cover disappeared in the 4th quarter as well. I am not sure on the riveted feet, but I think they we discontinued earlier than October 1937. I had seen the cork stoppers hole empty before, not sure if they fell out or production was stopped.
WE still had its parts to use, so you see combinations. None are wrong. I have seen an E1 handset with a dated 37 4H dial (my favorite) and then another had a 37 5H with the grooveless F1. ...Doug
Poplar1 and Doug...the phone is a 11/37 short eared, no vents, engraved H1 over mouse-hole, and screwed on feet. I think the cork fell out as there is some paint missing in the hole. What is the world is the cork for? stabilize ringer?
Ken
I tried searching for the web page that shows dates for 302 variations but so far have not found it. Consistent with KK's 11-37 short ear set, it does seem that 12-37 was the first month for the new larger plungers and higher ears. Also, Doug is right that various combinations can be found.
Persido's first 302 was 8-37 with matching dates 4H dial and E1 handset; this one is 5-37 with matching 5-37 5H and grooveless handset which is probably matching date.
Perhaps because 202s were still being produced en masse in 1937, there was an abundance of E1s and 4Hs that year. In any case, grooveless black F1 handsets, and 5H dials dated 1937, seem to be less common.
Quote from: wds on January 18, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
I had the seller take some measurements of the cradle and plungers, and the plungers are the smaller ones, and the cradle is wider than the normal 302. Looks like this is a completely original and authentic II 1937 with the exception of the handset cord. What are the chances of finding the correct handset cord? Seller is posting better pictures. So what would the correct value of this phone be? I still think the $500 is high.
I agree, except that I don't think the dial gasket should be black in 1937.
Quote from: poplar1 on January 19, 2014, 03:02:42 PM
I tried searching for the web page that shows dates for 302 variations but so far have not found it.
Is this the chart you were looking for?
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm
Quote from: Kenton K on January 19, 2014, 04:02:12 PM
Quote from: poplar1 on January 19, 2014, 03:02:42 PM
I tried searching for the web page that shows dates for 302 variations but so far have not found it.
Is this the chart you were looking for?
http://vintagephone.com/HB302.htm
Yes, that's it. Thanks.
Sold! $499.99. Don't know who the buyer was, but he must have really wanted it!
Quote from: Kenton K on January 18, 2014, 01:24:13 PM
How much do ungrooved handsets usually fetch? I've been looking for one myself. I found one once on a D1.
-K
Quote from: K1WI on January 18, 2014, 01:39:34 PM
The ungrooved SOLID F1handsets in BLACK are very scarce. So scarce that replicas have been made !! Less scarce are ungrooved F1s in brown that were made to be painted. These should not be confused with the F1* lightweight handsets used on later D1 and H1 bases. From what I have seen over the years the black ones are even rarer than the few that were made in ivory or other colors.
I wondered about the price of grooveless F1s. Well, 1 just sold on ebay for a whooping $293!!!! I guess I was one lucky guy to get a grooveless on a decently priced 202. ;).
EDIT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Prototype-1937-Original-Western-Electric-Telephone-F1-Handset-/181310874989?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=0l3wQnqyz%252BeeCD8BX3rJQSUxy04%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
K
Yes, you were lucky to get a grooveless F1 on a 202...this is part of the fun of getting refurbished phones with non-matching dates as opposed to all original, matching dates.
I asked an old timer who had retired from the Western Electric service center in Atlanta why they would sometimes put one cloth cord and one rubber cord on rebuilt phones. He said they used "whatever was available." His first job there was refurbing wood items like subsets. (The ones we find now often have a coat of black paint on top of the original finish.)
For future reference, the handset that just sold has a handle dated 3 08 37. Not all the parts have 1937 dates.
I just bought one of those grooveless handsets recently and paid about $100 more. Mine had an early 1937 302 attached to it however.
Sargeguy, was it an all-dates-matching 302? What are the dates of the parts, esp. the handset?
The base is dated 9-37, the ringer is blank, the 101A network and condenser are marked III 37. The handset is dated 4-29-37, the HA1 is 11-18-37, the receiver cap is blank, the transmitter element is 3-37 and the cap is 11-15-37. The 4H is undated, the 149-B is dated IV-37. The 302 has the small plungers, vents, plastic sheathed condenser, riveted feet, padded ringer etc. characteristic of an early 37, despite the late dates. Personally I prefer the F-1, an E-1 makes the phone look like Bullwinkle.
So far the ungrooved F1 handles found are dated as follows:
IV 36 --Doug found painted green on a 202
3/37 --K1WI's 3/37 302 NOS with 4H dial
3-08-37 --Ebay listing for separate handset ending yesterday
4-29-37 --Sargeguy's 9-37 302 with 4H dial
5-37 --Paul-f.com
5-20-37
6 01 37 --302 for sale on Ebay 2016-09-10
? --The 6-37 Ebay 302 that started this thread with 5H dial
6 07 37 Kenton's handset he sold on Ebay (resold on Ebay May?, 2016)
6 12 37 jfehl1's 6-37 302 sold March, 2015 (not the field trial set)
9 29 37 --on 9-37 302 with 5H III 37 (listed on Ebay 2016-05-22)
10 18 37 --Kenton listed on Ebay July, 2016: http://www.ebay.com/itm/122044582940
11-16-37 --Kenton found on a 202
The earliest grooved F1 handles found:
6 03 37 John's 7-37 field trial 302 #8121 sold March, 2015
6 11 37 -- on 6-37 302 with 5H listed on Ebay 5/22/16
6-12-37 (June 08)--poplar 1's 7-37 field trial 302 #8224 with dial blank
7 ? 37 -- mostly original 7-37 302 (not field trial) I purchased June, 2015
9 08 37 -- on 8-37 302 for sale on Ebay 2016-07-07 http://www.ebay.com/itm/112049594780
10 25 37 -- on 10-37 302 (with 5HB IV 37) -- sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086
The '38s are outnumbering the '37s at least 10 to 1 (in my personal inventory).
I must have a really late ungrooved handle. It has a date of 11-16-37, so Nov 16, 1937.
The IV 36 was mine. I found it painted green on a D1, looked like a home brew. I had original dated E1s on my manual 302 and dial 302 so I sold it. I got $75 for it and it was in really nice shape, paint had preserved it. It was on eBay a week and only one bid. I was floored when I saw this go for almost $300. Inflation ;D
Sometimes the bear bites you!!!...Doug
ADD: 6-19-37 F1 handle on Doug's 7-37 302
Quote from: poplar1 on February 03, 2014, 10:10:39 PM
The earliest grooved F1 handles found:
6 03 37 John's 7-37 field trial 302 #8121 sold March, 2015
6 11 37 -- on 6-37 302 with 5H listed on Ebay 5/22/16
6-12-37 (June 08)--poplar 1's 7-37 field trial 302 #8224 with dial blank
7 ? 37 -- mostly original 7-37 302 (not field trial) I purchased June, 2015
9 08 37 -- on 8-37 302 for sale on Ebay 2016-07-07 http://www.ebay.com/itm/112049594780
10 25 37 -- on 10-37 302 (with 5HB IV 37) -- sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086
[/color]
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=10968.msg118965#msg118965
Quote from: poplar1 on February 03, 2014, 10:10:39 PMSo far the ungrooved F1 handles found are dated as follows:
IV 36 --Doug found painted green on a 202
3/37 --K1WI's 3/37 302 NOS with 4H dial
3-08-37 --Ebay listing for separate handset ending yesterday
4-29-37 --Sargeguy's 9-37 302 with 4H dial
5-37 --Paul-f.com
5-20-37
6 01 37 --302 for sale on Ebay 2016-09-10
? --The 6-37 Ebay 302 that started this thread with 5H dial
6 07 37 Kenton's handset he sold on Ebay (resold on Ebay May?, 2016)
6 12 37 jfehl1's 6-37 302 sold March, 2015 (not the field trial set)
9 29 37 --on 9-37 302 with 5H III 37 (listed on Ebay 2016-05-22)
10 18 37 --Kenton listed on Ebay July, 2016: http://www.ebay.com/itm/122044582940
11-16-37 --Kenton found on a 202
The earliest grooved F1 handles found:
6 03 37 John's 7-37 field trial 302 #8121 sold March, 2015
6 11 37 -- on 6-37 302 with 5H listed on Ebay 5/22/16
6-12-37 (June 08)--poplar 1's 7-37 field trial 302 #8224 with dial blank
7 ? 37 -- mostly original 7-37 302 (not field trial) I purchased June, 2015
9 08 37 -- on 8-37 302 for sale on Ebay 2016-07-07 http://www.ebay.com/itm/112049594780
10 25 37 -- on 10-37 302 (with 5HB IV 37) -- sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086
The '38s are outnumbering the '37s at least 10 to 1 (in my personal inventory).
Add: 4 21 37 ungrooved F1 -- Robert Guth
I think this phone is a Ma Bell refurb, not an untouched NOS item.
Mike
WOW! I can't believe this topic is still going over 9 years later :o
Look on this site for my field trial set with a ungroved handset
Quote from: rdelius on March 30, 2023, 05:04:58 PMLook on this site for my field trial set with a ungroved handset
This one?
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=3927.0
(http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=20605;image)
Yes
Wow! Didn't notice the dates! That is a long time to be debating this.
Mike
Quote from: poplar1 on February 03, 2014, 10:10:39 PMSo far the ungrooved F1 handles found are dated as follows:
IV 36 --Doug found painted green on a 202
3/37 --K1WI's 3/37 302 NOS with 4H dial
3-08-37 --Ebay listing for separate handset ending yesterday
4-29-37 --Sargeguy's 9-37 302 with 4H dial
5-37 --Paul-f.com
5-20-37
6 01 37 --302 for sale on Ebay 2016-09-10
? --The 6-37 Ebay 302 that started this thread with 5H dial
6 07 37 Kenton's handset he sold on Ebay (resold on Ebay May?, 2016)
6 12 37 jfehl1's 6-37 302 sold March, 2015 (not the field trial set)
9 29 37 --on 9-37 302 with 5H III 37 (listed on Ebay 2016-05-22)
10 18 37 --Kenton listed on Ebay July, 2016: http://www.ebay.com/itm/122044582940
11-16-37 --Kenton found on a 202
The earliest grooved F1 handles found:
6 03 37 John's 7-37 field trial 302 #8121 sold March, 2015
6 11 37 -- on 6-37 302 with 5H listed on Ebay 5/22/16
6-12-37 (June 08)--poplar 1's 7-37 field trial 302 #8224 with dial blank
7 ? 37 -- mostly original 7-37 302 (not field trial) I purchased June, 2015
9 08 37 -- on 8-37 302 for sale on Ebay 2016-07-07 http://www.ebay.com/itm/112049594780
10 25 37 -- on 10-37 302 (with 5HB IV 37) -- sold April, 2016 on Ebay # 111963912086
The '38s are outnumbering the '37s at least 10 to 1 (in my personal inventory).
ADD: 4 28 37 grooveless F1 handset found on a junk 302 that I purchased to get the pre-1955 Atlanta number card. (Seller was asking $75 Buy It Now, but accepted my generous offer of $37.50 for a cracked 302.) I didn't even notice the ungrooved handset until I had the phone on the kitchen table. https://www.ebay.com/itm/235031759659
Anyone have any more dates for 1937 F1 handsets in your collections -- both standard (grooved) and grooveless ("seamless")? There was a manufacturing overlap of both 4H/5H dials (1937-1938) and E1E/F1A handsets (1937-1938). Without stating that all 202s had 4H and E1, and that all 302s had 5H and F1 (they didn't), there seems to be a collector's preference for 4H dials and for E1E handsets when restoring a 1937 302. Not sure why. In any case, the grooveless F1s and the "silent" 5H dials (with phenolic pulse pawl) are certainly less common than the 1937 4H dials and the 1937 E1 handsets. This is only the second grooveless F1 I've ever found -- albeit by luck this time.
The base plate is indeed 1937 - it should even say so on the red stamping in front of the ringer - but that is a newer shell, which is not unusual, as Ma Bell would refurbish equipment over and over and over again.
Mike
Quote from: MMikeJBenN27 on March 30, 2023, 02:52:30 PMI think this phone is a Ma Bell refurb, not an untouched NOS item.
Mike
Mike, please reread reply #30 (copied below) and see photos in #26.
(Also, it would be helpful if you would use the "quote" button when replying, unless you are replying to the most recent post.)
Quote from: wds on January 18, 2014, 10:31:51 AMI had the seller take some measurements of the cradle and plungers, and the plungers are the smaller ones, and the cradle is wider than the normal 302. Looks like this is a completely original and authentic II 1937 with the exception of the handset cord.